An idea

[dvk901]

After doing some research and theorizing, I'm considering making a move for the next version that may shock some of the purists, but I throw the idea out there anyway.

My impression of this new time-period we've chosen is that the Roman military had evolved considerably from 390BC....most referrences I can find in refferrence to the battles of the 2nd punic war speak of 'Roman Legionaries' and 'maniples', and to the use of velites, but they also speak of 'highly trained legionaries'...which to me suggests a 'shift', as I have suspected, away from the 'hastati, principe, triarrii' maniple to a system of 'legionaries' I can only surmise would be the equivolent of the Principes, but still organized in the maniple configuration.

So here is what I propose...removing the hastati and triarrii.....using the new Ferres Principe model and simply calling them 'Roman Legionaries' as they are referred to everywhere I can find.

The rational here is that we're nearly 200 years later with our start date from the first time Rome started using the hastati, principe, triarii legion, AND, as a side benefit I'm sure all can appreciate (especially Tone and AE and DR), it will give us three more slots to use for something else.

I will replace the current 'Caesarian' Legionary....which is a stretch....with this new 'Legionary', and eliminate the three hastati, principe and triarii slots.
That would give us a total of 19 slots left to play with.

Thoughts? Objections?

[DR. Hobo. PHD.]

me likey

[tone]

We also get a load from removing all the current eastern units.

[dvk901]

We also get a load from removing all the current eastern units.

Does that mean you think it's a good idea, or that I'm daft?

[tone]

I don't know enough history to comment. The alternative though would be to have 3 differently skinned early legions. As far as slots go we're tight but not desparate

[rory o'kane]

erm, DVK? i thought our start date was 218 b.c. - the V/H/P/T/E (velites/hastati/principes/triarii/equites) thing was still going on then....

[dvk901]

Prove it. That's the issue I'm having a hard time with. I can find no proof that it was.

I don't know enough history to comment. The alternative though would be to have 3 differently skinned early legions. As far as slots go we're tight but not desparate

OK.

[Angel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rmy_unit_types


Gives an list of roman units. Or romans who used these units.

[dvk901]

I know Angel, but what I'm looking for is some kind of composition of the Roman army during the 2nd Punic war.......217-208BC or so. The Romans started using the 'manipular' armies, hastati, principe and triarii after 390BC. A hundered and eighty years or so is a long time not to change anything.

Also, all the evidence I find talks about the 'highly trained' Roman Legions...and the hastati were actually the youngest and inexperienced. So I wondered if, for reasons I can't find, things had changed by 200BC.

I may be wrong, I would just like 'substantive information' that says the Romans used this type of army against Carthage in 200BC.

[pseudocaesar]

you could always get this book...
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=T1451

[Drtad]

you could always get this book...
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=T1451

I read a little bit of an Osprey book (a portion about Armenia, so I know what I am talking about) and I found many historical innaccuracies after a few sentences. I like the pictures though.

[cherryfunk]

I went back to Dodge's 'Hannibal', where he describes the Roman army in great detail. He admits though that the system was in flux and that, to some degree, we just don't know exactly how the army switched from the old to new style. It's possible that the incredible stress of Hannibal's invasion, in particular the need to very quickly raise many new legions, may have led to the abandonment of the 'age' classes of Hastati/Principes etc.

What Dodge describes suggests that the Hastati and Principes were merging and may have been pretty much similar at this point. The Velites were still Velites. The Triarii seem to have still been separate, and used as a reserve. I'll read up on his description of the major battles and see if he says how the Triarii were used (i.e. did they still use those spears? that's the key question).

Seems to me though that we could merge Hastati and Principes, and possibly Triarii.

[dvk901]

I went back to Dodge's 'Hannibal', where he describes the Roman army in great detail. He admits though that the system was in flux and that, to some degree, we just don't know exactly how the army switched from the old to new style. It's possible that the incredible stress of Hannibal's invasion, in particular the need to very quickly raise many new legions, may have led to the abandonment of the 'age' classes of Hastati/Principes etc.

What Dodge describes suggests that the Hastati and Principes were merging and may have been pretty much similar at this point. The Velites were still Velites. The Triarii seem to have still been separate, and used as a reserve. I'll read up on his description of the major battles and see if he says how the Triarii were used (i.e. did they still use those spears? that's the key question).

Seems to me though that we could merge Hastati and Principes, and possibly Triarii.

This was the impression I was getting, that the hastati, in particular, were no longer used.

[Zaknafien]

Polybius describes in detail the Roman formations being used in the 2nd Punic War, and the hastati, principes, triarii were certainly still in use at this point.

[tone]

OK, that's pretty definitive then.

[cherryfunk]

Not entirely. He also describes how they were organized in cohorts, but not separate by type, but rather all 3 in one cohort. There seems to have been a blurring of the distinctions that were once very clear.

[Zaknafien]

Yes, the main change of the "Polybian era" was the tactical use of cohorts instead of maniples. The triarii were still present as the rear echelon, and the rorarii and accensi had evolved into the more flexible-use velites. The lines between the hastati and princpes were blurring at this point, but they were essentially the same throughout except for property requirements. They used the same equipment by this point, but it varied by what the individual legionary could afford. Most probably still used a square or circular pectorale while more wealthy individuals could afford a shirt of hamata. Even scale armor is known from this period.

[cherryfunk]

So the question is whether it's worth it in the mod to 'blend' the hastati and principes in order to gain the unit slots for other factions. It's a bit of an historical fudge, but not that much of a stretch I don't think...

[tone]

So sounds to me like we keep things pretty much as they are. One unit slot doesn't seem worth it.

[cherryfunk]

3 slots, according to dvk above. Although we might want to eliminate the late legions before we do this.