Opinions: Build Tree for the next version.

[tornnight]

Build Tree for the next version. Right now this is what I have setup.

Government (Vanilla Names)
Town Hall -> Council Chambers -> City Hall -> Mayors Palace

These are now in both Castles and Cities and 'gate' the majority of the development in tiers. They obviously need new names (Suggestions Please) and all factions share them. What I mean by that is that if you capture a settlement with a government building, you can use it too.

Barracks (Vanilla Names)
Town Watch -> Town Guard -> City Watch -> Militia Drill Square -> Militia Barracks -> Army Barracks -> Royal Armoury

These need new names (Suggestions Please). They are faction specific, so if you capture a settlement with someone else's barracks, you can't use it.
You can destroy these if you like. They are shared between Castle and City. Castles provide experience bonuses across the board depending on Castle level.

Provincial Control (New)
Outpost -> Subject State -> Allied State -> Homeland

These are new and are specific to a faction. They gate the development of your barracks tree. They are NOT shared between factions. For example, If you capture another factions homeland province, you will have to build an Outpost in order to build your first tier of Barracks. Right now, you cannot destroy these 'buildings'. I'm not sure how to represent these in pictures. Perhaps someone else has a better idea for names or buildings to represent this? (Suggestions Please)

You can also say this idea stinks and that I should give it up.

I need opinions and ideas please. Thanks.

[acegogo]

for provincial control I would have:
provinceState (buildingName)
occupation (Outpost)--> subdued (Representative office) --> vassal (King´s office) --> homeland (First level of town hall???)

also another idea could be the increase of trade depending on level as inhabitants start to see the new oportunities opened. Starting really low ofcourse.

[tornnight]

Increased trade is an option. They would loose it after initial occupation too.

Homeland can't be the first level of the government. They are different build trees and I cant link them together.

1 Provincial Control build tree for each faction, 1 government build tree shared among factions.

[super-panda]

For the government,
the first should be a borough, for meaning the idea of a first step and a town without signifiant power for the moment.
Second should be a council forum.
Third should a noble parliament.
The last should be a royal palace.

For the barracks,
First should be a peasant's milice hut.
Second should be a conscript hall.
Third should be a volunteers garrison square.
Fourth should be a milita casern.
Fith should be a army barraks.
Six should a noble army basement.
And the seveth should be a royal troops headquarters.

So the outpost level should be linked to the level of soldiers/buildings that you build here, because that will show that you are making a strong policy at the settlement.

The first building should be a outpost, it fits correctly.
The second building should be a government hall.
Third should be a vassal noble council.
And the last should be a empire ally headquarters.
Here are my thinks.

[Bosphoran]

something like vassalage should be an option in government type. the vassal city will build their faction specific units and mercenaries but not the mother faction's own units.

[tornnight]

That's sort of where I was going with first and second tier of the barracks. However, since I don't have units mapped to all the regions yet, I cant quite do that completely yet.

[Irishmafia2020]

My only opinion on this subject is that I beleive that generals should only be allowed to be recruited from castles. That always gives me an extra reason to have a castle in a cluster of regions, especially if the territories are far from my homeland.

[infernocanuck]

Wait, I'm a bit confused. So under this setup, if I were to conquer another faction's city or castle.. one that has..say.. an Army Barracks. It would be destroyed, and I would have to build up the entire line again?

[Bosphoran]

I have an idea about the recruitment system. It would sound lame to some but how about making swordsmiths axemakers or bowmakers etc. seperately .
e.g. You first build a spearmaker he just makes spears for the soldiers or militias. then at 2nd lvl he can make pikes and after building the axemaker he can finally makes halberds. so like swordsmiths at first until he knows how to make quality swords he can make only crude longswords and shortswords. then at higher levels bastard swords to claymores can be made. eastern swordsmiths can make scimitars and falchions too. and for barracks you don't recruit professional soldiers until you can make weapons for them. i.e. you build swordsmith and a leather armorer and at the barracks you may only recruit swordsmen with leather armors. also it is combined with the stables. you make spears you have spear wielding cavalry you make swords you have knights etc. bigger stables feed more quality horses (+xp bonus) and high level barracks are too with the xp bonuses because of the training received there. I don't know how is it easy or hard to make but it would be like a rpg game but this way you should change your mod name to M3TW

[Bosphoran]

and I want to add that mercenary guild is the best thing you added to the game :bravo: (Y)

[Severloh]

You stink Torn , give up...

Well, first of all, the idea is pretty good. Since buildings like "bowyer" are directly related to the barracks. It would be like auxilia buildings in RTR, wich were excellent.
But let me get this straight. If you captured, for example, Paris, with your german soldiers, it would be, logically, french homeland. So you would have to build an german outpost there, build a town watch and only be able to recruit spear militias? On Paris? And the units that will be recruited there will be like unique units, mercenaries, french or german troops?

Anyway, I'm just complaining cause I have nothing to do

This way looks great, it just seemed a bit odd.

[Rex Inanimatus]

mmm i am gonna be the first one to disagree with torn's idea. To implement AOR buildings is fine with me, though already build time are long it hasn't ahve to be simcity 1100 AD. So far in my current campaign of the marubitun Caliphat I reached the year 1240 not a single settlement or castle is fully build. Even longer build times because of extra buildings will make this game harder to keep your budget under 50k.

The only way I going to like this scenario is the removal of the 50k limit, because if you have more money than that after a turn your family members all get the extravagant trait in a few turns

[tornnight]

Wait, I'm a bit confused. So under this setup, if I were to conquer another faction's city or castle.. one that has..say.. an Army Barracks. It would be destroyed, and I would have to build up the entire line again?

That was the initial idea. Except the barracks would stay there for you to sell. It would just be unusable. The idea was that it would take a while to get a province under control. Most of the time you would be using mercenaries or importing troops from the homeland.
Note that since all units are under the barracks line, you wouldn't have a bowyer or stables to build.

I have an idea about the recruitment system. It would sound lame to some but how about making swordsmiths axemakers or bowmakers etc. seperately .
e.g. You first build a spearmaker he just makes spears for the soldiers or militias. then at 2nd lvl he can make pikes and after building the axemaker he can finally makes halberds. so like swordsmiths at first until he knows how to make quality swords he can make only crude longswords and shortswords. then at higher levels bastard swords to claymores can be made. eastern swordsmiths can make scimitars and falchions too. and for barracks you don't recruit professional soldiers until you can make weapons for them. i.e. you build swordsmith and a leather armorer and at the barracks you may only recruit swordsmen with leather armors. also it is combined with the stables. you make spears you have spear wielding cavalry you make swords you have knights etc. bigger stables feed more quality horses (+xp bonus) and high level barracks are too with the xp bonuses because of the training received there. I don't know how is it easy or hard to make but it would be like a rpg game but this way you should change your mod name to M3TW

Beautiful ideas. Problem is that you can't make buildings control the availability of units in a different building. Thats the huge problem that is killing many ideas.

mmm i am gonna be the first one to disagree with torn's idea. To implement AOR buildings is fine with me, though already build time are long it hasn't ahve to be simcity 1100 AD. So far in my current campaign of the marubitun Caliphat I reached the year 1240 not a single settlement or castle is fully build. Even longer build times because of extra buildings will make this game harder to keep your budget under 50k.

The only way I going to like this scenario is the removal of the 50k limit, because if you have more money than that after a turn your family members all get the extravagant trait in a few turns

Could you be more specific about what you dislike? The longer build tree in the new settlements?

I'm open to ideas. I'm just trying to get something more like the RTR and EB style were you can't just capture a province and automagically be able to recruit units.

[Rex Inanimatus]

Could you be more specific about what you dislike? The longer build tree in the new settlements?

I'm open to ideas. I'm just trying to get something more like the RTR and EB style were you can't just capture a province and automagically be able to recruit units.

I am in favour of an AOR system though I already found out that by the time you reach about 20 provinces economy is booming and spiraling out of control, so having a big difficulty to keep my income down and try to have at the end of each turn less than 50k of money. I have already in each city 1 or more unfinished buildings in my build list.

Off coarse I could stack everywhere non militia armies to lower income, though my army is already by far the biggest and that seems to scare all my enemies away, they already always retreating. I have to restrain myself becasue I can now blitz everything I want.

To add new buildings with low cost/per building year is something not to my likeing because it eases up mid/end game too much.

What my sugestion is that for high end buildings cost increased much and building time slightly decreased so the cost per year ratio for buildings is going up.

Torn, if you have further question do not hesitate to ask, I may not respond very quick though because of a family disaster i may not be arround for a few days

[Hanny]

Beautiful ideas. Problem is that you can't make buildings control the availability of units in a different building. Thats the huge problem that is killing many ideas.


.

well ive already done that, building combinations reduce time to produce units, from a stock 40 turn wait down to 1, (some are 80) depending on the buildings in in the settlement. so to get a varingarian takes 40 turns from noththing, reduces by barracks, smithy and other buildings, means different settlements produce the same unit at different rates of turns..


Another way to to do it, and keep the turns to produce the same, is making say, barracks and a metal smith a pre requisite for a barracks building that allows these units, that the normal barracks progression does not entail.

example.

Huscarls exist because of building barracks at present. generally the game gives the best units to the most advanced buioling, do away with that concept. Repalce it with rate of build times for units increasing, as the buildings are created.

but what if they existed because of adminstartive building A, and metal working building B, that allow barracks 1 tier units, as each builing tre advance appears it places the same units only quicker in time to produce, as a drop forge allows armour to be built quicker etc.

or in your tier approach, those units are linked to multi building combinations requiring each building to allow the unit at the standard time to build, only checked by availability of correct tier building in the tree, you can re use the same icon, just add number in top right corner, make them relativly quick to build.

[ruizbumkins]

WOOT!! EB is my favorite mod!!...After TLC of course.

[infernocanuck]

Alright... How about this to compensate for the much longer build times that come with rebuilding an entire line of Barracks: Make the buildings from the "new line" of barracks, the ones that you have to build up once again to get the levy troops, make thier build times shorter. Keep the cost. Make it expensive. If you want Levy troops fast.. pay through the nose. But make it 1/2 or 1/3 of the time it would take for you to normally construct the entire line of buildings:

For example: I conquer Paris with my English Army. Paris has an "Army Barracks" already in Paris so I can just train my regular line of soldiers, the same as my native lands. But, I can choose to destroy it, and build up a new line of barracks. It won't take as long (Because we could justify in game that the building isn't getting rebuilt.. but the structure, the recruitment, the training is changing to fit the region) but it would cost mucho florins. Because... as well all know, loads of money can make someone become more "trustworthy".

I think.. if it can be done, that is, it solves the "OMG it's going to take 100 years for me to get some foreign units" problem by reducing build times, but also solves the "OMG you're just going to blitz and take over everything instantly" problem, by forcing you to -pay- for it. And pay for it well. If you have a good bank account, can sacrifice money for production, great. But if your budget is on a shoe string (which happens much of the time when you blitz) there is no way you are going to be able to afford to upgrade properly untill you can stabilize and save up.

How does that sound?

[super-panda]

Hum, I think that when you get a castle or a town, the most logic is to change only the buildings so that they will fit to your empire, destroying everything will mean that you doesn't want the settlement or that you are a barbarian.

Anyway, when you conquer an settlment, I think that the best should be that you must rebuild/remake the buldings, Ii should maybe result in dowgrading the level of building and costing much like you have to change much things in.

example: I conquer a settlement with a army basement, if I wish to to use them, I must remake them, so it will cost a lot of money and time, and will maybe downgrading it to army barracks ( look my post before to see the levels I am no sure about the normal, so I took mine in example)to show the difficulty of implementing his empire.

After, It seem possible that you must recruit the previous faction units into your new barracks,since you can't have already moved your culture and military training. Maybe further you should make comming some of your mainland soldiers traning, but you should always have the settlement previous military training too.

Altough, like you will have problems to have good soldiers in a newly conquered place, you should have help of mercenaries, and maybe make some of them protect the settlement and becoming milita with training, to help you protect the town/castle.

Then, like I sayed, I think that maybe the outpost should be linked maybe to the time since you have the settlement under control,or maybe to the happyness of the popuplation/if you are manadging correctly the settlement and showing him importance.It should be a auto-builded or free to build building.

For the new names of the government buildings, I stay with my previous post.

[ivar]

InfernoCanuck, I actually think it should be the other way around. Instead of it being high cost and low time, it should take little money, but lots of time to convert the local populace into fighting for you.

Here's how I think it should work Tohr:

Capture an enemy settlement and then you must build a "Town Watch" Level 1 barracks to pacify the mob. If I remember correctly, in RTR or EB the first level or two of the "Auxilia" buildings were simply to lower unrest and increase happiness. These buildings would not be expensive (reflecting that you aren't actually building anything necessarily, but that you need to invest time in order to convert the existing populace to your rule).

A Tier 2 barracks would allow you to recruit local militia and peasants. A Tier 3 barracks would allow spearmen, Tier 4 local professional soldiers, and tier 5 local elite soldiers.

Something like that. One option is to just put local in front of the existing barracks names. I'd recommend that the buildings like this:


Town Watch -> Local Assembly Hall, or just Assembly Hall
Reduces unrest or bonuses to happiness.
1000 gold + 2 turns

Town Guard -> Mustering Hall
3000 gold + 4 turns.

City Watch -> Garrison quarters
6000 gold + 6 turns

Militia Drill Square - > Local Militia Drill Square
8000 gold + 8 turns

ETC. You'd have to tune it to fit the existing barracks costs and build times. Basically, make them maybe half as cheap as the existing barracks up to tier 5 or so. Tier 6 and 7 would be faction units possibly and should be more expensive and longer.


Here was RTR's AOR scheme:

Auxilia Phase 1 = Gives a happiness bonus
Auxilia Phase 2 = Able to build basic AoR units in the area.
Auxilia Phase 3 = Able to build all AoR units in the area.
Barracks = Build basic faction units + all AoR units in the area.
Royal Barracks = All faction units + all AoR units in the area.

Note that it only includes 5 phases, while your mod will have 7.

[tornnight]

@infernocanuck
Hmm, I don't think I see a way to differentiate that way.

@superpanda
Unfortunately there is no mechanism to auto-build, downgrade, destroy, or even damage a building in MTW2.