RC For SS - Help Needed :)

[shaeffer]

Hi guys

I've been following the unit balancing work going on in this thread for some time, and am keen to apply it to SS

I've spent the last few days going through the latest EDU release for RC, and have been painstakingly merging the changes into it. Theres a lot to take in, and I'm almost all the way there

However, its late, I'm in England and I'm conscious that we have American peeps for whom the day is still young, so I'm going to offer up the last bit of work to those still awake

Basiaclly I've xferred all units over except the custom designed ones that KK has created . 99% of the work is done

However, I need help with the following units:

Dismounted Armored Clergy
Templar Guard
Templar Longbowmen
Templar Zweihander
Templar Spearman
Templar Squires
Macemen
Noble Spearmen
Mercenary Saracens

Basically I need one of two things from you.

I need EITHER an existing unit that closely resembles these in terms of their stats and abilities so that I can copy paste the relevant stuff over (for example, templar longbowmen are similar to longbowmen - duh)

OR

If people are feeling exceptionally brave (braver than me at 11pm in the evening after a few bevvies anyway) feel free to peruse the RC Guide (I've attached it in this post) and see if you can translate what it says into what the unit should be

I'm not gonna be around tomorrow or even possibly wednedsay so theres plenty of time But do feel free to read the guide, and also to read the thread, theres lots of good stuff there

I'm hearing lots of good things about the RC methodology, and how combined with GrandViz's Ultimate Battle AI it really makes things exciting and stuff

Obviously once this last job has been done, I'll release the EDU's but I don't see the point unless all units adhere to the same scale

See what you think folks!

Shaeff

[Quark]

Hi, Shaeffer

Did realise you had done this work.

I have attached my comparison excel file for RC vs SS with updates. This has values for the units mentioned. As you can see I have assumed th KK is right for attributes and ownership, but RC for models, stats etc.

The difficulty is where KK uses his own animations, as these can skew how units work I have just left these alone for KK to sort out if he wants.

Also I think there will have to be a small change in artillery costs as KK and RC use different attributes for these in relation to stakes.

Hope it all helps.

[Byg]

Excelent news. I have been looking forward to someone putting RC into a mod I use for ages. Can't wait to play the results.

[shaeffer]

This looks awesome Quark - I'll have a looksie...I'd not thought about the animations, so it sounds like yours is likely to be more right than mine!

Shaeff

[Quark]

New update - I ran a Templar campaign and spotted three errors so new comparison.

PS: This does not have the KB edits as I wanted to keep them seperate, could always do two files if these edits are OK.

PPS: Shaeffer did you see my reply in BBB - if you want the files just let me know.

[Quark]

These things are sent to try use

Just found an update to RC, have ammened and add to zip, so here is the new new version.

[King Kong]

Hi shaeffer,

Wow! You are really busy!
Well, I have to admit that I don't know much about RC and what it does.

However, I'm not really sure if this is your problem, but I assume you mean the animations, which are mentioned in this line:

soldier mercenary_saracens, 60, 0, 0.5

I think you don't have to bother with the "mercenary_saracens" since I think this has actually no effect.
I havn't made any new animations I just use the name from the .modelsdb file for this line.


Hi Quark,

thanks for the help with this!
I know that it is probably not very easy to incorporate RC and when you have any questions I will try to help, of course!

[Quark]

Ok, As I understand the theory - some models had to be changed as they aere interfering with or not acting in the right manner for the type of attack that you were trying to simulate.

Hence

type Dismounted English Knightsdictionary Dismounted_English_Knights ; Dismounted English Knightscategory infantryclass heavyvoice_type Heavybanner faction main_infantrybanner holy crusadesoldier Janissary_Heavy_Inf, 48, 0, 0.5
replaces
soldier Dismounted_English_Knights, 48, 0, 1.2

So with new units like macemen

soldier macemen, 48, 0, 1.2

which model should be used under the new rules?

[shaeffer]

Hiya KK

Cheers for the offer of help on this - if you get a chance it might be worth having a look at the RC thread I linked...you can see on there the amount of work theyve put into balancing this out, it does look very very very indepth and historically accurate to boot.

Hopefully between us Quark and I can knock something out

Quark - I'm gonna be unavailable to check these out tonight (making a new job applicationy thing and stuff :p) but I'll buzz you tomorrow

Cheers

Shaeff

[shaeffer]

given that RC is based on vanilla models, I'd have to say if in doubt trust RC. The worst it could do is cause a few texture problems for the new units I guess

[shaeffer]

ok, lets see what we can do with this

I agree with you Quark in that there should be two EDU versions, one for KB and one for without - although in future I really hope KK incorporates KB into SS

(God just over a month ago I'd have read that sentence and thought 'wtf do all these acronyms mean?!)

Regarding BBB, I'll grab those off you once I've done these we know theyre in SS 4.0 anyway so no great rush...our mission now is to convince KK of the power of RC

[Lumberjack]

wtf is KB?

[shaeffer]

Wow Quark, our files are pretty much spot on with each other I think...thats certainly encouraging!

The only significant difference, and this works out perfectly, is that on my one I'd inadvertantly made it with the KB banners, whereas yours does not...hence, we have both files pretty much good to go!

Just running through the final checks now, but I think we'll have something to host shortly

Awesome work

Shaeff

[TheFirstONeill]

hi ,
sounds exciting guys, I'd love to help test if you need any extra eyes. Ive been playing DLV purley because there is a RC conversion for it, so I can see the RC effect in action.

Any way good wwork fella's really looking forward to the release

[shaeffer]

Kings Banner

I'ev got a thread slightly further down about it Its awesome

[shaeffer]

Ok got the EDU's done and happy, uploaded 2 versions, one for use with Kings Banner and the other for use without Kings Banner

See what you think!

Quark - I noticed a couple of loose faction allocations, mostly Templars and artillery for some reason, so you might want to compare the non Kings Banner version to the one you originally sent me to check them out.

Awesome work on the new units btw, I havent had time at all to check the science before all this out so I'm so glad you have!

Best

Shaeff

[Mike13531]

shaefer? what is that link? is that for RC?

[onefistedboxer]

Just to remind you, if your having trouble balancing a unit use PB's balance guide which he has attached to his most recent beta.

The guide is basically the whole point of the RC system as you have to find out specific information about the usage and equipment of a unit in order to
replicate them in-game, the system is very logical and will allow you to build up the stats of any unit. There are also important notes on how to set-up different types of units pikemen, for example, need specific spacing, attack speeds and attack damage in order to allow the correct number of units to break through them.

I think you were a little unsure about the soldier line, which RC changes, this does not refer to the actual model but just the battlemodelsdb entry for unit animations. PB realised that there are 3 speeds of 2 handed animations, as these are all too slow he has set all two-handed units to use the fasted animation, therefore the soldier entry of 2 handed units has been set to that of a unit using the fast animations, this is all that it changes.

These are included in the guide though, aswell as the attack speeds for different weapons and the defence value of different sheilds ect.

Great work though guys, you clearly worked hard on this.

P.S. When using PB's unit balance remember to also use GrandViz's battle AI, which is designed to be used with RC, using RC with Vanilla or Darth AI will cause strange behaviour and passive AI, as they were not designed to work together.

[TheFirstONeill]

cheers Jason

[Quark]

Hi Sheaffer,

I thought my latest version did not have the NE artillery ownship bug, oh well, will compare against my latest in the morning. I have been adding in the latest RC fixes. (By the way why the extra (non EDU) files, have you made changes?)

As to strange effects with Darth - I meantioned this to KK in Bugs, cavalry charge like treacle, so will swap and let you know if I see any changes. Will give up on my Templar campaign as too many good units, go back to Scotland.

BBB 2.0 has some errors in it with triggers and traits, which I have reported so hopefully when you need you will have the perfect version.
Also may have worked in Naval vnvs by then as well.