A question about the templars and hospitallers

[Americanus Supremus]

First off I would like to commend the achievements of Torn and his group of modders for creating one of the best, if not the best, mods for MTWII.

Well here is my question regarding these two orders of Knights. Why are they limited to certain factions? In my own reading on the subject, the templars, though founded in France soon spread there holdings to much of the western nations. I think they are also responsible for the creation of the tuetonic knights. So I was wondering why they are not availible to factions such as HRE, Spain, and Portrogul?

As for the hospitallers they were not as centralized as the templars but I still find that they had knights from almost every christian nation. So I wonder why they arent availible to every catholic nation?

I think both should be availible to every cathalic nation. What say you guys?

If they are not to be added in for the above mentioned factions, what would I need to do to mod them in? Im a decent text file modder, more trial and error then any real knowledge. But all my attempts have failed. At first the game would simply crash when I entered battle with either units of knights, dismounted or mounted. But now I can fight with them but they are all silver. Kinda like the Predator when in camoflauge. Kinda of annoying. Any help on either would be greatly appreciated.

One more thing am I to presume that if you build one guild in a certain city, you will not be able to build any other guild in that city. If this is the case I would like to know so I can mod each settlement to have more then one guild from the start and then test to see if any city will get to upgrade the guilds in there city.

Thanks in advance for any responses, and I apolagize if this is a stupid topic. Its just something that has kinda bothered me since the game came out.

HC

[Irishmafia2020]

I think that the game developers compensated those factions (hre, spain/portugal) with their own crusader knights. HRE gets Tuetonic knights - who are bad mommas in their own right with their maces and all, and Spain and Portugal get the kights of Santiago...

[Americanus Supremus]

Well I can see what you mean from the game's developer standpoint. But for a gamers or historic standpoint wouldnt make sense to have them for nations that actually had them. I just would like to see them available to the other factions as well as the ones that already have them.

I would like to hear torns opinion on this. Or if he intends to introduce any other order of knights in any new release.

If not can someone point me torwards where I can figure out how to mod them in. I can get there guild houses offered to me as HRE and even build them, But I would like to see them in battle.

Thanks
HC

[tornnight]

It wouldn't be too difficult to make them mercenary style units available to whomever we decide appropriate.

It would involve modifying the .modeldb file which is probably the scariest thing for beginners.

In fact that is what your missing and is the cause of the untextured soldiers.

If you give me a list of historically accurate factions that could have had those particular guilds, I'll try and get them in at some point.

[Ludicus]

If you want something historically accurate about the Military Orders,they had a crucial importance in Reconquest.
International Orders;Templars,Hospitalliers,Santiago
National Orders in Portuguese Reconquest: Order Of Christ and Order of Aviz,

The first Portuguese King from the second dinasty was Master of the Order of Aviz.
The Order of Christ was very important in the reconquest and lately in the Age of Discoveries.

[Bosphoran]

I don't know how is it historically accurate but can you make the knights a faction of their own e.g. in rhodes? they can emerge around 1100 and get the hq of st.john from the beginning templars like that too

[Americanus Supremus]

Thanks for your reply Torn. I will get you all the information I can when I get back home. Im on a rig site in North Texas, and dont have any of my books with me that would have any relevant information. I found some of my info on wiki. It gives a little info on specific people though Im not sure what there position was. Mostly about the factions that currently have them, plus Hre, Spain, and Portugul. I didnt see anything on Poland or Hungary, but that doesnt mean there weren't any from those particular factions. I would think that all catholic nations should be able to recruit these units, and even be able to build there guild houses. I havent been able to back that up with info that specifically states that explicitly. But from programs I have seen on the history channel, it shows that the templars in particular there influence spread throughout catholic europe fairly quickly once they recieved there papal bull, around 1170. (Im not sure as to the date but I will get you more info in the next week, once I get home and have some time to research it more.)

As for the hospitallers, there influence wasnt as great as the templars. But I would assume that they had recruits throughout catholic europe as well.

On another note, I add a few bonuses to each of the above guilds. The templars I give them a trade and economic bonus on top of what they get now. The hospitallers get an population health bonus and happiness bonus.
But thats just me, I can kinda get crazy with text editing from time to time.

Well when I get a chance I will get you the information that I have about those two orders. Ill also see what info I can dig up on other relevant military orders that were of significant historical value if you want. Im dont have much info on other religious military orders, but im sure I kind find some if I put my mind to it. Just let me know.

HC

[Xeno_cws]

Sultan the Teutonics will be a playable faction in the exp. Torn will likely add them in like the Mongols right now.

[Ludicus]

From AmericanusSupremus:
Portugul (second post)/Portrogul (first post)?Hmm?
It´s Portugal.

[Americanus Supremus]

Sorry my mistake, I meant no harm, but its just a spelling error. Sorry


Anyway, I just did a quick search on Wiki and came up with a little list for military orders from the middle ages.
You can get more info about it by going to wiki and typing in "Military Orders." Or click on this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_order

Crusade Orders formed in the Outremer

Order of the Hospital of St. John or The Hospitallers. Founded c.1070. Papal Order 1113

Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon or The Templars. Founded c. 1118. Papal Order 1128 - the first purely military order

Knights of St Lazarus Founded early 12th Century. Militarised c. 1123 - Most likely an offshoot of the Hospitallars

Order of Montjoie Founded c. 1180.

Teutonic Knights of the Hospital of St Mary of Jerusalem or The Teutonic Knights Founded 1190. Papal Order 1198.

Hospitallers of St Thomas of Canterbury at Acre or Knights of St Thomas Acon. Founded 1191 Militarised c. 1217

--Other Orders, formed within Europe
Order of Calatrava Founded 1158

Order of Santiago Founded 1170

Order of Aviz - Portuguese Founded 1176

Order of Sant Jordi d'Alfama - Order of St. George of Alfama was amalgamated with the Aragonese Order of Montesa Founded 1201

Livonian Brothers of the Sword - in 1237, it joined the Teutonic Order Founded 1202

Order of Dobrzyń - order absorbed by the Teutonic Order in 1228 Founded 1216

Order of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mercy Founded 1261

Order of Santa Maria de España - a Spanish seafaring military order Founded 1275

--Orders founded after the end of the crusades (see also chivalric order)
Order of Montesa - first members comes from Order of Calatrava; Knights Templar's assets in Kingdom of Valencia Founded 1317

Order of Christ (Order of the Knights of Our Lord Jesus Christ)- Portuguese founded in 1318 from the assets of the Knights Templar in that country; first Grand master from Order of Aviz

Order of the Holy Sepulchre - a military confraternity, rather than an order Founded 1342

Order of the Dragon (Ordo Draconis) Founded 1408

Order of Our Lady of Bethlehem Founded 1459

Knights of St. George - Austria Founded 1464

Order of St. Stephen - a Tuscan seafaring military order intended to augment the Knights of St John Founded 1561

Order of the Holy Spirit -France. Founded 1578


This is just a brief on some of the more influential orders of the day. Im not asking to put them all in by any means. But I would like you to maybe take a look at them and decide for yourself whats worth adding and whats not. I will however get you more detailed info on the Templars and Hospitallers, as to what other factions should either be allowed to have them as a merc unit or be able to build there guild houses. I do have two questions for you though.
First can you build more then one type of guild house in a city/castle?
Second were there any Orthodox Military orders or where they just a catholic creation?
Thanks again.

HC

[tornnight]

Nope 1 guild per settlement.

Not sure about Orthodox orders. I can't say I've heard of one.

[Tulius Hostilius]

Just my 2 cents:

I think that even when a mod tries to be historical accurate it can’t include every single order that existed.

So the essential are the orders in Outremer: Templars and Hospitallier;
Than, one created in Outremer but really representative in the Baltic: the Teutonic;
And the Reconquista orders in the Iberian Peninsula: Santiago, Calatrava, Alcantara, and Aviz.
The Order of Montesa in Aragon and the Order of Christ in Portugal where created in the beginning of the XIV century after the destruction of the templars.

I read some time ago about an Orthodox order, but I don’t think that is representative enough to create a military unit in the game (sorry I don’t recall the name).

[Ludicus]

think that even when a mod tries to be historical accurate it can’t include every single order that existed.

So the essential are the orders in Outremer: Templars and Hospitallier;
Than, one created in Outremer but really representative in the Baltic: the Teutonic;
And the Reconquista orders in the Iberian Peninsula: Santiago, Calatrava, Alcantara, and Aviz.

Well summarized

[Americanus Supremus]

Thanks Torn. Im sure this is something that is hardcoded. I know you can edit more then one into a city in the Descr_Strat. THough Im not sure if you can get upgrades thru the game though. Something I will have to test when I get back home. Is this going to be changed in the expansion I wonder? I will work on getting you actual proof as to which factions should also be allowed the templars and hospitallers and there guilds on the net in the coming days.

To the others:
I dont think you guys understand what Im getting at. My original post was about the inclusion of templars and hospitallers for a few other factions that dont have them. Not adding every order that was created in this time frame. And I know that some of the orders where created only because of the disbanding of the templars. Hell it says as much on list in my above post, Plus books and programs Ive read or seen on the subject. I wasnt implying that we should add every order in that list, just showing that there were quite a few in era that this game covers. In no way would I expect or even ask Torn and his mod team to add them all or even add some of them. That is up to them I just put forth the info so he could look at it and then possible direct me to get more info on such and such if wanted more info or thought about adding them. Im not sure what your getting at with your post's Ludicus, have I offended you in some way. If you guys dont want them added to the factions I have posted about then say so, if not then add something about the topic. Not imply things about which Im not even talking about. I really just want to see these two units added to the game that are already there but are not availible to factions that I believe and/or can prove should be allowed them. If Torn see's fit for them to be added then great, if not then I tried.

HC

[Tulius Hostilius]

No troubles, Americanus Supremus, I think that did understand you from the first post, and I agree with your idea that the international orders should be more international.

I just got scared with the huge list that you quoted from the wiki and I wanted to summarize it.

And If someone has an insomnia night than can read this excellent book about the templars:
http://libro.uca.edu/forey/templars.htm
or at least the first two chapters to have o good picture about the beginning of the order.

This can also be a good link:
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/reli.../milindex.html

of course we are just annoying Tornright and the team, but maybe some decent ideas can come out…

[Ludicus]

Im not sure what your getting at with your post's Ludicus, have I offended you in some way

My posts? it was only one post,if I remember it well.
This one:

From AmericanusSupremus:
Portugul (second post)/Portrogul (first post)?Hmm?
It´s Portugal.

And no,you haven´t offended me.

[Hanny]

I believe the Mil orders are over represented at present, not in range of orders but their representation as units in game, in reality they comprise a very small number, in game they are over represented bgecause the limits of units and size of units make them so.

ive cut their numerical strength by half for instance, but thats just my personal pref.

[Tulius Hostilius]

I believe the Mil orders are over represented at present, not in range of orders but their representation as units in game, in reality they comprise a very small number, in game they are over represented bgecause the limits of units and size of units make them so.

ive cut their numerical strength by half for instance, but thats just my personal pref.

I agree with you.

But how you have done that? Just changed it in the export_descr_unit.txt? Wouldn’t it be better to change the line stat_cost in the production time and make 5 or 10 turns?

[Tulius Hostilius]

ok, thanks.
I will digest it...

[Hanny]

The biggest downside to useing the unit file for build times that i can think off , is that is clogs up the unit build slots, so if you make it wait in a slot for 5 turns, you lose a slot for 5 turns, so its not the optimal use of the file and slots.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105979 Dl this and open up the unit file, you will see that g;loabaly cav are very small for the player faction, in this case BYZ, and only slightly larger for the AI, since the AI has 3 hps per man, and the Byz faction infantry units are small, 30-60 range, its units can be ridden over unless deployed in depth, or have a throw away screen of pisoli to break the charge impact and take the initial losses, to protect the MLR.

smaller cav units are more responseive to orders and manouver much better than large ones due to the pathing routine which is based on useing the centre point of the unit, so small units or large ones that are as deep as wide, follow orders quicker because they fill the requirements of 50% or whatever your using to follow orders.