European Union - Pro or contra?

[Vampire]

If you are an EU citizen, what is your opinion of EU, how did EU had afected you? In a bad or in a good way?


I'm not speaking about dreams and ideals with what the politicians are feeding us for their own agenda but about the impact that had EU on your life and how you feel now after soo many years of EU.


My personal experience I posted it in Cost/benefit of EU membership, but I put it here too for who had not read that thread:

My country Finland had joined the EU some time ago . . . they are all the time now telling us that the economy from my country had increased and we win more money. But that it is only on the paper, as many Finnish companies are still in name Finnish and still pay taxes to Finnish government.

Yet the reality from everyday life of anybody from here is very different.

The EURO had made the prices to go crazy yet our salaries had remained quite the same as before.
The businessmen had used the fact that The Finnish Markka was smaller than Euro and people had not realized so well the value of Euro compared with the value of the old mark. When you are used to pay for a coffee few markka you have the impression that it is very cheap when you have to pay one Euro and half. Even if with those money you could have buy 2 coffees before Euro. What use I have that is cheaper now to buy a computer when the food and clothes are much more expensive? I never in my whole life I have not buy a computer every day but I have to eat every day.

We have now much more unemployment as many companies had moved to the East Europe or China or India or whatever country for cheap workforce.
I did have a job in a Nokia factory before EU now that factory had been closed . . . I heard that they had opened it again in collaboration with Siemens somewhere in Romania, but I am not sure. And to be honest I do not care where it is now, I care only that I do not have anymore a job and that I live from social :wub: help.
I had made a university and now I could wipe my ass with that as only the basic jobs like cleaning or bartender or seller . . . . or social assistant are still here.

We have crazy laws and standards for agriculture that make the small producers to go bankrupt. My parents had a farm that was going quite ok before EU and now they had to give up the farming and rent their land to some bigger farm. All that because they had not been able to pay all those machines that you need to fulfill those insane quality standards.

We have in Finland now very stupid and strange laws . . . the one that affected my family directly was that particular law that is forcing you in countryside to have a very expensive "ecological" toilet. They even tried to stop us to warm our houses with wood as it is tooo polluting and they tried to force us to warm with electricity that it is very expensive compared with the wood that it is . . . free. Luckily nobody had swallowed that.

And . . . we have a much more bigger taxation now to support the whole EU thing and EU expansion.

In the end not to forget about immigration that is becoming problematic.

After all that I simply fail to see how was of any use EU for us, we come to EU in the idea that maybe we will have a stronger position against Russia. But after Estonia we understand that if Russia will attack us tomorrow EU will not even dare to say anything.

The only advantage that I could thing about it is that now I could travel freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee wherever I want in Europe. But . . . right now I do not have enough money to travel, and as I will not have anytime soon those money I do not care.

The Shengen agreement had brought down the borders from most of Europe but that was a very stupid thing, they have forgotten a very important principle of commerce: a country where the salary is around 1500 Euro could not compete on the free market with a country where the salary is around 50 Euro. To compensate that difference it was invented a thing called CUSTOMS.

At the end of all things . . . EU had harmed my country, the economy of my country and my people very much and we have absolutely nothing in return. Some countries like Italy or Spain or Ireland may have very much to profit from EU, but I and my people we are not martyrs and we don’t sacrificed ourselves for the good of others, my country is not red cross or a institution called “Save the bloody world!”.
I will vote at the next election with anybody that will get us out of bloody EU. If far right . . . then far right shall it be!
I do not care now about any greater ideal or whatever, I want to have again a real job!


When they made the referendum that we come to EU only 51% have wanted to come to EU . . . now the politicians do not make any kind of referendum about anything related to EU. The politicians have too much money from the businessmen that profit from EU to care anymore about the good of this country!





Of course . . . those businessmen that have moved their factories in whatever poor country to use the people from there as slaves, those businessmen are becoming richer and richer with every day.

The best part from all this it is that my husband that is social assistant have now very much work to do. They even need more social assistants now . . .

Yet the social system was far more better before EU . . . now with the EU they give lot of money to Gypsies and lazy immigrants , but for me that I had worked and pay taxes . . . I have very little.

Before EU they were even supporting the single parents . . . not anymore. The money from taxes are of better use in some EU thing now, why to waste them on social help anyway?

[removeduser_487563287433]

I'm a student. It's not cheap - tuition fees, rent, food, drink, emergency contraceptives. I don't like mooching off my parents so that means I have to work. Trouble is, thanks to EU human rights I can't work nearly as much as I would like to. **** you, you lazy French ****s. I want to earn enough money to enjoy my life to its fullest.

[Curtana]

Against

a)We would have been at peace for the last 50 years with or without the EU on account of the cold war and an inexplicable outbreak of mass sanity.

b)It allegedly helps trade within the EU (I would like to see this proven) but raises barriers to trade outside of it. Free universal international trade would be more economically productive in the medium to long term. The EU would get richer after adapting to industries, mostly service industries, in which it could make money most easily.

c)The CAP distorts internal markets and the masses of cheap food sold into third world markets makes food production there uneconomic. Thus keeping literally millions in abject poverty and misery. This is evil.

d)The stated aim of the Italian Marxists who thought it up 60 years ago was a single state. This goes against the democratic wishes of the clear majority and is therefore clearly wrong.

e)There are more efficient ways to transfer wealth from rich countries to poorer ones to aid their development. The EU is not required for this function if the people in the rich countries really want to do it. Maybe someone should ask them?

[overon]

We could of had a Eu all ready at the start 1939 if England and France didn't declare war.

[Kiljan Arslan]

We could of had a Eu all ready at the start 1939 if England and France didn't declare war.

I pray that was a very bad joke you made.

[Scorch]

We could of had a Eu all ready at the start 1939 if England and France didn't declare war.

Just for the record, I'm quite glad this post was treated with the intellectual contempt it deserved.

[LoZz]

i dont mind the whole trade agreement stuff and the open boarders and the general easyness of going from one part of europe to another and then buying stuff their.

but i am strongly against the eu being anything more then just a trade group, i dont support anything which brings us closer together as a state, like the euro currency and the european parliament which seems to have the right to tell my government what to do

[removeduser_487563287433]

I am extremely against joining the EU when it seems to be entirely on continental terms. I do not want to abandon English values of individualism and personal responsibility.

[Bwaho]

what I do like about the union is that it makes traveling in europe easier

I do not want to abandon English values of individualism and personal responsibility.

you're so british ferrets

[Sophia]

I left. For good.

[Erik]

what I do like about the union is that it makes traveling in europe easier

I never found it hard to begin with.

How the EU has directly affected my life:
-More crime at my local train station because EU laws forbid us to hire locals as security guards (only huge multinationals are allowed to provide security services, and they are too expensive)
-More drug addicts in the streets, because the EU forbids us to tackle the drug problem the way we know is best.
-Big construction projects take years longer to complete, and cost many millions more, because every time somebody starts construction some "endangered" frog turns up (note: "endangered" in the rest of the EU, but extremely common the my country, especially around building sited because they actually love the heaps of sand and pools of water that are created during construction).
-Bigger threat of international terrorism, but still no proper EU anti-terror agency to do something about it.
-Everything is more expensive because of the euro.
-Every year we have to hand over 3 billion euro's to those lazy Irish, who are too drunk to hold a proper job themselves so they've grown to depend on the EU (=us basically, because we contribute twice as much as anyone else) to provide for them.

[Vampire]

About the agricol politic of EU . . . that pays 80% of the money to only 20% of farmers:

Ake Karlsson is chairman of the Swedish Small Farmers Association and has a 150ha arable and woodland farm at Noordkoping, some 130 kilometres south of Stockholm. Ake and his family are proud of their farm - and especially his herd of beef cattle. But his favorite animals are two cows kept over from his dairy herd , which was sold , along with so many others, in the mid 1990's, due to falling milk prices and the high costs placed on dairy farms by EU hygiene and sanitary controls.
Ake is deeply saddened by the fate of the small farmer under the hands of an EU bureaucracy which pays 80% of its subsidies to 20% of the farmers - the largest ones - and leaves the rest to fight over the crumbs.

A short drive from his farm is Hakan Thornell who is equally outspoken about the Common Agricultural Policy. Hakan has 130ha of land comprising both grassland and forestry. A few years ago he applied for EU support for his grassland area, but was refused the money when he cut the grass instead of letting it grow rank. Hakan says that both he and his colleagues were better off financially and more independent before Sweden joined the EU. In order to ensure that visitors understand his feelings he has erected a sign at the entrance to his farm which declares: "EU Free Zone". He is also pleased to show us a chicken house which is a glass reproduction of the European Parliament's headquarters, complete with cock and hens.



Ake explains that since a subsidy was introduced which pays landowners to do nothing with their grass meadows ( i.e. take them out of agricultural production) significant areas of farmland have been bought-up by wealthy town's people who then collect the subsidies without making any commitment to the upkeep and management of the farm. Observing the passing farmland as we drive up the motorway, it is apparent how field after field is devoid of any farming activity and how a course grass is the only visible crop.

The next day we are taken to see a small scale goat farm. Here Katarina Ogren looks after 45 goats which she milks twice a day, making a selection of cheeses from each batch of milk. The cheese is then sold to specialist shops, restaurants and the recently opened 'farmers market' in Stockholm. It is a highly committed way of life and one which demands a very professional approach. Katarina applied for an EU subsidy to help build-up the farm, but found that the demands of the paperwork were very hard and that the financial returns were lower than the costs which she had to pay to an advisor whose help she needed. At one point 7 controllers came on the same day to inspect the farm and quiz Katarina over hygiene and sanitary controls. Now she is trying to withdraw from the system altogether, recognising that she has more to loose than to gain through trying to aquire EU support.

[Principe Alessandro]

this is a very useless question because the EU hasn't any type of power, most part of powers are in hand of national governments, the actual national governments are the cause of some bad situation in some states, and if I post a question national governments Pro or contra?
All the organism like EU make some rule that can are absurd but many of this defects affect also the national governments.

With € is more expensive all?

I remember to all that the first cause of inflation is the cost of oil not the €,
and financial help for some regions aren't not all for the poor nations but for some regions like ex east Germany, Scotland, some regions of Spain, south Italia, that aren't exactly in Poland or others.

[Erik]

this is a very useless question because the EU hasn't any type of power, most part of powers are in hand of national governments, the actual national governments are the cause of some bad situation in some states, and if I post a question national governments Pro or contra?
All the organism like EU make some rule that can are absurd but many of this defects affect also the national governments.

The problem is: the EU restricts national and local governments.
I hear about good plans from my local or national government getting slammed down by some stupid EU rule on an almost weekly basis.

With € is more expensive all?

I remember to all that the first cause of inflation is the cost of oil not the €,

How much did the oil price rise on January 1st, 2002?
Because all the prices at the shops skyrocketed overnight.

One recognized reason for the inflation in my country was a faulty exchange rate.
We had to buy euro's at a 1:2.2 exchange rates, but our guilder was really worth a lot more, about 1:2 would be more fair.
Even our minister of finance admitted to this.

The EU is also printing way more banknotes than they are supposed to.
More euro's available to the public means each euro is worth less.

and financial help for some regions aren't not all for the poor nations but for some regions like ex east Germany, Scotland, some regions of Spain, south Italia, that aren't exactly in Poland or others.

That's exactly why I have a problem with it.
I don't mind giving money to the poor, but we give more money to Ireland (ranked 4th richest in the world) than to Poland or Romania.

[Vampire]

That's exactly why I have a problem with it.
I don't mind giving money to the poor, but we give more money to Ireland (ranked 4th richest in the world) than to Poland or Romania.

It is extremely sad but it is true what you say. The countries from the east europe, the new members of EU have desperate need to be helped but they are not.

Insteed we give money to the rich. Yet maybe that it is actualy all that EU is about . . . to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

I'm truly sorry for the countries from East Europe . . . mostly because in the moment when they will have to align to the quality sandards forced by EU, in that moment they will have to shut down over 90% of their agriculture.
And indiferently how bad is the CAP all the money are given to the farmers from the west and very little to the farmers form the east europe.

[The Super Pope]

I gain nothing from th EU. Someone tell me how a white, protestant Englishman gains anything

[Principe Alessandro]

Excuse me but how can say that the south Italia, some zone of Spain, Portugal, East German, Scotland and North Ireland are rich, I don't know how poor are in Poland but I know how poor are in some zone of South Italia for example, Ireland I don't know if they are rich or poor

[Curtana]

All the organism like EU make some rule that can are absurd but many of this defects affect also the national governments.

OK. So it is absurd. Lets just have one national level of bureaucracies generating ridiculous rules rather than national and supra national absurdity.

Excuse me but how can say that the south Italia, some zone of Spain, Portugal, East German, Scotland and North Ireland are rich, I don't know how poor are in Poland but I know how poor are in some zone of South Italia for example, Ireland I don't know if they are rich or poor

These poor regions would get more money if the money was not flowing through the EU's coffers first. The EU itself admits it suffers from massive financial corruption. If the money came directly from national governments there would be more money to go around as less would be wasted.

In any case why should the German taxpayer support the poorer parts of Sicily? How is it in their interests to do so?

[Woad-Warrier]

We should leave the bloody EU.

[Principe Alessandro]

OK. So it is absurd. Lets just have one national level of bureaucracies generating ridiculous rules rather than national and supra national absurdity.

These poor regions would get more money if the money was not flowing through the EU's coffers first. The EU itself admits it suffers from massive financial corruption. If the money came directly from national governments there would be more money to go around as less would be wasted.

In any case why should the German taxpayer support the poorer parts of Sicily? How is it in their interests to do so?

This is a problem of bureaucracy, simple erase the national, and regional bureaucracy and leave only one and unique European bureaucracy.

Why the Lombards, Veneti, Piemontesi the richest regions of Italy must pay tax to help the poor regions of East Germany, North Irish, Castiglia, Portugal and Scotland and many others regions in East Europe?