Endgame: Iraq

[mrmouth]

Frontline is in my mind the best unbiased political programming on the planet. This special in particular is the best single piece I have seen on the Iraq war thus far. I urge everyone to watch.

Here is a link to there latest special: Endgame.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/endgame/view/

If you like that, browse the Frontline site for other incredibly interesting programming.

[Matty_P]

Should we divide Iraq among it's 'warring factions' in an attempt to bring stability to the region? I've heard it suggested, but I know little of the specifics regarding any such strategy.

However, it's common knowledge that the majority of the borders in the Middle East are remnants of the Colonial Era. Would it serve the world better if the borders of Iraq were redrawn?

Would a Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish Iraq make the situation any better or simply provide the Middle-East with three more little states to fight with each other? Of course, if anything is to be done with regards to borders, it should be done in a manner that reflects the populations of the region.

[Black Hawk]

I think dividing the nation might be the only solution, since the Kurds are now considered traitors after consorting with Israel. As to how this will turn out for the kurds, now that they have been alienated from the whole Muslim world is anyones guess.

http://www.veoh.com/videos/e122440ak...7535061&rank=0

[KaerMorhen]

I fail to see dividing Iraq as prosperous long term policy, in attemp to keep stability Iraq should stay as one piece. If we let Kurds establish independant state there'll be automatically turmoil within neighboring countries with huge Kurd minorities such: Turkey, Azerbejian, Iran. On the other hand if sunnies and shias cannot get along they'll be warring against themselves regardless any actions of UN.

[Beowulf47]

I fail to see dividing Iraq as prosperous long term policy, in attemp to keep stability Iraq should stay as one piece. If we let Kurds establish independant state there'll be automatically turmoil within neighboring countries with huge Kurd minorities such: Turkey, Azerbejian, Iran. On the other hand if sunnies and shias cannot get along they'll be warring against themselves regardless any actions of UN.

Actually, my girl friend is an Iraqi kurd, and she just informed me that the number one fiscal investor in Kurdistan is Turkey. She says it's because of the EU thing with Turkey, but I think it bodes well.

[darkseb]

Now that irak is total mess ameica wants to live; are you sure it is for the good of irak or the good of the states ?
when America is gonna tell the world it has made a mistake ? And how to clean the plate? Just tell me.

[Tiwaz]

Should we divide Iraq among it's 'warring factions' in an attempt to bring stability to the region? I've heard it suggested, but I know little of the specifics regarding any such strategy.

However, it's common knowledge that the majority of the borders in the Middle East are remnants of the Colonial Era. Would it serve the world better if the borders of Iraq were redrawn?

Would a Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish Iraq make the situation any better or simply provide the Middle-East with three more little states to fight with each other? Of course, if anything is to be done with regards to borders, it should be done in a manner that reflects the populations of the region.

Every group has their own view on how much territory belongs to them. Amusingly, when summed up this amount of territory is much bigger than actual territory of Iraq.

So no matter how you split it, the new nations will be at war to gain their "rightful" territories.

[Matty_P]

Now that irak is total mess ameica wants to live; are you sure it is for the good of irak or the good of the states ?
when America is gonna tell the world it has made a mistake ? And how to clean the plate? Just tell me.

It would be for the good of Iraq considering the borders it has now are relatively poor renderings of the national/ethnic/religious groups residing within the country.

Also, let me tell you, as an American citizen, I'll tell you we made a mistake. Iraq is the biggest quagmire of a military operation ever devised! It has been almost totally ineffective at bringing stability to Iraq. Most Iraqis see the current situation as being as bad or worse than when Saddam was in power.

[bigfootedfred]

Most Iraqis see the current situation as being as bad or worse than when Saddam was in power.

i think we can quite safely take the 'as bad as saddam' out of that sentence and replace it with just 'worse than saddam' now.

I mean really.

[Matty_P]

perhaps that's true, but regardless of the conditions presently in Iraq, the USA is totally responsible for it.

[Ma'ahes]

Unfortunately, since the people of Iraq have not had a situation to develop a successful form of government other than dictatorship, I say let them reap what they have help sow: a new, brutal dictator to keep the lil' kiddy terrorists in line. Depressing, huh?

[Matty_P]

If it means stability and we can accomplish a 'benevolent enough' dictator for Iraq to satisfy Western and Islamic needs simultaneously, then we should by all means set them up with a dictatorship.

however, the above is impossible!

Despotism is a failed political method for a reason; it doesn't work!

[Ma'ahes]

If it means stability and we can accomplish a 'benevolent enough' dictator for Iraq to satisfy Western and Islamic needs simultaneously, then we should by all means set them up with a dictatorship.

however, the above is impossible!

Well, at the moment I don't think "Islamic" and "benevolent dictator" could possibly be uttered in the same breath--the fundamentalist movement would act much like the Pan-Arab movement of the mid/late-90s. And heck, most of those rulers weren't elected, but took power! No, what we need is a greedy sonuva***** who will take the dollars we use to buy his oil, and forget about everything that has happened. Because hey--it's not like anyone is losing any sleep about those poor kids in Africa, or repressed women across the world.

Ideals are just that--and unfortunately fundamentalism has seemed to have swept the globe for the past decade, and it's now time to try and fix it. Luckily the USA has begun leaning away from the NeoCons, but only history will show if the ME can pry itself away from the detrimental actions of Islamic fundies.

[kev-o]

Splitting Iraq up doesn't seem that bad of an idea. But you have to remember that some factions won't stop until their enemies are exterminated. So, boundry lines aren't going to solve to the problem

[bigfootedfred]

Splitting Iraq up doesn't seem that bad of an idea. But you have to remember that some factions won't stop until their enemies are exterminated. So, boundry lines aren't going to solve to the problem

Also, the Sunnis wont be happy at the large shia areas which happen to be large oil rich areas forming some part of a 'Shia Iraq' whie neither the Sunnis nor the Shia, nor iran, turkey, Jordan or Syria would be happy about a Kurdistan for one, and that Kurdistan controlling the oil in Mosul for two.

The only way i can see forward would be some kind of federation.

[mrmouth]

Split the country, share the oil revenue. The Sunnis and Shiites have been fighting since before the first crusades, which is why you don't go into Iraq in the first place.

[Principe Alessandro]

The unique manner for Americans to stabilize the Iraq is to increase the number of troops, they haven't enough troops to control all this big country, but how? I don't think that Americans have others troops to put in Iraq, it's simple, is necessary a vast coalition of international forces, America has taken some decision not very pleasant for France, Germany and others population of allies countries, like Spain where the filo-american government of Aznar wasn't reelected and Zapatero is immediately withdrawn, America must give more importance to the allies because can't do more without them.

[Ma'ahes]

^Meh. Dictator would do the same thing, and less trouble in the long run.

[kev-o]

What is really pathetic is why the sunnis and shia's are killing each other over a disagreement on who is the succesor to Muhammad. They should just forget about it and live in today's world.

[Hansa]

What is really pathetic is why the sunnis and shia's are killing each other over a disagreement on who is the succesor to Muhammad. They should just forget about it and live in today's world.

Unlike the more clever Christians who have never fought among themselves say Catholics vs Orthodox or Catholics vs Protestants. No they have never, which is why we never had the 30 years war for instance.

Anyway, there are major problems with dividing Iraq into 3 countries. The Kurdish problem regarding other countries and the Sunnies being bereft of most of the oil has already been mentioned.

There is also the problem of the different groups of Iraqis living intermingled with other groups of Iraqis, this applies especially to Baghdad. This problem has partly been ''solved'', by the sectarian violence (Iraq has about 2 million internal refugees, with nowhere to live), but this solution is hardly desirable. from an American point of view there is also the problem of the Shiite state (which would dominate most of the important parts of Iraq including the oil rich parts), being dominated by Iran. I can hardly see the current US administration wanting much of Iraq turning into an Iranian puppet state.