Gesatae too powerful

[Mateus]

Greetings,

First of all may I say what a great mod EB is, and I take my hat off to all those involved in making this game the enjoyable as well as historically accurate game that it is.

My only grumble, and it is made most humbly, is that I find the Gesatae (naked Gallic warriors) to be a far too powerful unit. I appreciate that they were considered to be heroic warriors, immune to fear, possessed with a battle rage that made them ignore wounds and charge the enemy without a thought for self preservation, but the fact that 120 or so of these chaps can smash all hell out of several hundred roman legionnaries, or anyone else for that matter, without so much as losing a fraction of their force is just unrealistic. In addition the fact that the gallic nations seem to be able to churn these warriors out easily is again, in my humble opinion, a bit unrealistic.

I think the Gestae should indeed still be an elite/shock unit but their hit points should be reduced to 1 or their stats lowered so that they do not completely unbalance battles in an unrealistic manner. To represent their zeal for war maybe they should be attributed with the inability to rout, to fight always to the death, or to never fear their position in a line of battle. This at least makes more sense than the scenario of hundreds of legionnaries throwing their pilums at these naked savages and having none of them die.

Just a thought.

Love the game, keep up the good work.

[hooahguy14]

no, i think its fine just the way they are..... if you read what the EB creators wrote bout them, you will understand why they are so dang strong....

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87389

[Tony83]

Greetings,

... My only grumble, and it is made most humbly, is that I find the Gesatae (naked Gallic warriors) to be a far too powerful unit. I appreciate that they were considered to be heroic warriors, immune to fear, possessed with a battle rage that made them ignore wounds and charge the enemy without a thought for self preservation, but the fact that 120 or so of these chaps can smash all hell out of several hundred roman legionnaries, or anyone else for that matter, without so much as losing a fraction of their force is just unrealistic. In addition the fact that the gallic nations seem to be able to churn these warriors out easily is again, in my humble opinion, a bit unrealistic ....

Lol - how I sympathise. :laughing:

Those damned nudists are the only ones that put the willies up my poor legionnaires! They're bad enough in open battle but can be devastating street-fighting within the confines of a settlement.

Head-on they're almost unstoppable, what you need to do is pin them, use javelins, and hit them from the flanks or rear repeatedly - that sorts 'em out.

[misplacedgeneral]

[q] no, i think its fine just the way they are..... if you read what the EB creators wrote bout them, you will understand why they are so dang strong.... [/q]

I think he is speaking historically. If they were as powerful as they are in the game, then certainly Caesar would not have been victor on so many fields of battle.

Also, IIRC, at Telamon, the Gesatae proved very vulnerable to missiles, and yet this fellow says they suffer few casualties from them.

[AceOfSpades]

Are you misplaced from HG?

My problem with the Celts is that they only train slingers and those utter crap spear infantry (bal-something, they're worst infantry Celts can train). Occasionally I get light cavalry, spearmen, southern or northern swordsmen, or gesatae, but they're all rare. It's the same for the Sweeboz and Balkan factions as well, they train only crap units. I'm thinking of giving them all powerful units to start with next campaign so they're actually a challenge.

I do agree, though, that gesatae are too powerful. I reduced armour (they're naked ffs!) and gave them penalties against cavalry so they're easier to kill once flanked.

I have a question though: do spear units get bonuses against cavalry?

[starXdiaMoo]

[q] no, i think its fine just the way they are..... if you read what the EB creators wrote bout them, you will understand why they are so dang strong.... [/q]

I think he is speaking historically. If they were as powerful as they are in the game, then certainly Caesar would not have been victor on so many fields of battle.

Also, IIRC, at Telamon, the Gesatae proved very vulnerable to missiles, and yet this fellow says they suffer few casualties from them.

That sounds weird, as I'm ancountering very few problems with them. I usually use peltasts to gain their attention and entrap them by luring them on my pikes and then finishing them with my heavy cavalry. Or I use slingers to rain death upon them, works every time. It is a matter of tactics Even the best infantry in the world (Roman legionaries) where crushed and totally annihilated by people like the Parthians!

[hooahguy14]

agreed! thats how i deal w/ them! javelins, sones, and arrows cut them down! very effective.

[eggthief]

So if I would take my clothes of and used some drugs, I could easily murder a couple of people on my school, just for fun and be invulnerable for a while?

[hooahguy14]

uh.... i dont think thats how it works..... lol!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

So if I would take my clothes of and used some drugs, I could easily murder a couple of people on my school, just for fun and be invulnerable for a while?

Maybe, if you trained most of your life in killing people and especially if you had a big group of guys just like you who were doing the same thing and you were all used to fighting that way. Somehow I think you're probably not in that exact situation though, but thanks for trying to compare the Gaesatae to drugged up 21st century teenagers!

[Hmmm]

Maybe, if you trained most of your life in killing people and especially if you had a big group of guys just like you who were doing the same thing and you were all used to fighting that way. Somehow I think you're probably not in that exact situation though, but thanks for trying to compare the Gaesatae to drugged up 21st century teenagers!

Amazingly (as you already know) the Spartans did the same, if not even train harder, but their stats are 3 less in def.skill, only 1 HP and, although fighting in a hoplite phalanx relying on their charge, have 4 less charge bonus than does the Gaesatae. Dont get me wrong, i dont mean to complain, just trying to tell you that the Gaesatae might have a little inaccurate stats .

Simply: Gaesatae werent the only ones practicing to kill , there was a lot of elite infantry that could probably match them .

Again, try and not take this as a complaint, i just felt like i had to post that.

EDIT: I think a better example of what Eggthief meant was that if he got nude and got some of those drugs he could win against, lets say, 2-3 others with not very much less training than himself (if comparing Gaesatae to Dosiditaskeli, sp?, Hypaspistai, Neitos and other elite infantry).

[Cornholio]

if the gesatae are too powerful, what about grivpanvar cataphracts, in combination with (armoured?) horse-archers?

i heared rumours that in multiplayer, cataphracts are the most important playing on vanilla version. does that count for EB too?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The Spartans had been on decline for over a hundred years by the time of the start of EB. They are not the Spartans that you always hear about. That is why they are not supersoldiers like the Gesatatae.



http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87389

[Hmmm]

I wasnt talking about the Spartans only, they were just an example. If you had read my whole post a little more carefully, you would have seen that i meant elite infantry in general. Neither Spartans nor Gaesatae were far superior to other elite troops, if at all. To portray the Gaesatae in the modern way of "huge naked barbarian=pure ownage" seems to exaggerate. They werent Supermen, ignoring pain doesnt mean resisting death. A mortal wound would still kill a Gaesatae off just like anyone else.

If you look at the Spartans, attempts were made to regain their earlier power, but i doubt that the warriors were much inferior to the earlier Spartans just because they were in decline, they still trained from early age for war.

Besides, if the case is what you claim, shouldnt there be an option of getting the Spartans back to their former strength if the only problem was that Sparta was in decline? If you manage to conquer even all of Hellas and Asia Minor, thus becoming quite a superpower? After all, EB is not about recreating history, its about changing it.

Once again, try not to see this as offensive, i do not even suggest that the Gaesatae should be changed or that the Spartans should be able to "be brought back" (which they probably shouldnt). Its just my own opinion on the subject.

[eggthief]

if the gesatae are too powerful, what about grivpanvar cataphracts, in combination with (armoured?) horse-archers?

i heared rumours that in multiplayer, cataphracts are the most important playing on vanilla version. does that count for EB too?

Yeah I loved Parthia in vanilla and when I played mp (on my noobish style) I used an army that only contained them (Cataphrats) and believe me it is effective, they're like a brick wall (with pointy things on it) that goes at ya with 50 m/ph, but they're pretty nerfed in EB. Phalanxes as well and I cant complain. Though HA's are pretty strong in EB and having a volley of arrows first and then a unit of HA's in melee are strong in melee as well could be pretty dangerous yeah.

[misplacedgeneral]

For the arguments for the gesatae being so powerful, really, it isn't int he history. I think high attack and morale is all well and good, but defence ratings shouldn't be. They were not terribly effective at Telamon, and in the end, Gaul fell to Rome.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, so all the Gauls and all others should be pwned by every roman unit...

[Hmmm]

Certainly not, and BS and formalities aside, you have done one hell of a great job to balance the factions, but that doesnt mean that the Gaesatae should pwn every infantry they fight, like they are doing now.

Dont get me wrong, this mod is lightyears ahead of the others (yeah, its so damn good, the work put on it is just amazing, which is the reason why i dont want to complain, that would be to be... well... dont find the word, but complaining would be "dumb" considering that this mod is superior to RTW Vanilla in every kategory, except stupid kategories like "less balanced game", AND its free).

EDIT: To all the ppl who dont find the Gaesatae stats balanced, just edit them yourselves (like I did).

[Ludens]

I wasnt talking about the Spartans only, they were just an example. If you had read my whole post a little more carefully, you would have seen that i meant elite infantry in general. Neither Spartans nor Gaesatae were far superior to other elite troops, if at all. To portray the Gaesatae in the modern way of "huge naked barbarian=pure ownage" seems to exaggerate. They werent Supermen, ignoring pain doesnt mean resisting death. A mortal wound would still kill a Gaesatae off just like anyone else.

Actually, it won't. As I understand it, the Gaesatae made themselves impervious to pain by using a PCP-like substance. Modern-day PCP addicts are notoriously hard to put down: you can blast them with a shotgun, but they'll just keep coming. PCP allows the brain to go on under conditions that will normally shut it down. A stab in the belly or the chest will incapacitate a normal soldier, but not someone drugged up on PCP. Even slitting their throats won't bring them down at once. I guess you'd need to wait until so much blood has leaked out that the brain will stop working due to oxygen and glucose shortages. And off course whether the subject survives after the drug wears off is another question.

Anyway, Gaesatae are not that powerful. They excel in close-combat against light and medium troops, but the heavier, better-armoured units are able to hold them for a considerable time, and most elites should bring them down. Also, you need not play them at their game: a unit or two of cheap slingers will deplete their hitpoints significantly, and they come at only a faction of the price.