Why does the world make sense?

[morteduzionism]

If the world/everything were created, why doesn't anything exist separate from 'nature'?

In other words: why do plants need water and sunlight? why do we need to eat? etc.

It just seems that if the world were created there'd be at least one obviously magical...thing. Something that exists outside of the natural world.

[Tom Paine]

Arguably, there is; technology - "Any sufficiently advanced technology," remember, "is indistinguishable from magic" (Arthur C Clarke); that or human stupidity.

[Curtana]

It does not.

Anyone who says otherwise is either religious, an atheist or agnostic.

[Hephaistos]

In other words: why do plants need water and sunlight? why do we need to eat? etc.

This is the wrong question. Plants/animals do need this, because they can refill their needs on their own.

The right question is: How can such a fragile system, where life only can exist with other life, with several resources, with very specific needs for certain enviroment values (tempature, gravity, atmosphere...), with the need of the chemical elements which can only be served by three super novas in the neighborhood, how can such a fragile system really develop and work? There you have your magical thing. When I do think about this, I am getting the feeling, that is makes absolutly no sense, that we do exist. Do you need more miracles?

[morteduzionism]

This is the wrong question. Plants/animals do need this, because they can refill their needs on their own.

I don't quite understand what you mean right here.

The right question is: How can such a fragile system, where life only can exist with other life,

I wouldn't go so far as to call it fragile. But you're proving my point. If the world was created why do living things need other living things? If something willed them into existence, why make them dependent on some other life/plant form?

with several resources, with very specific needs for certain enviroment values (tempature, gravity, atmosphere...), with the need of the chemical elements which can only be served by three super novas in the neighborhood, how can such a fragile system really develop and work?

Once again you're proving my point. If something created the system why make it so "fragile" as you put it? Why make it dependent on, all the things you named for starters, numerous variables? Why not just say: plant live! or shun shine(why is there even a sun? why not just make a sourceless light appear in the sky)

There you have your magical thing. When I do think about this, I am getting the feeling, that is makes absolutly no sense, that we do exist. Do you need more miracles?

I'm sorry I don't find that miraculous or magical at all. In order for me to find that miraculous I would need a frame of reference(i.e. 99.99% of the universe explored and NO other forms of life found)...To me a miracle or something magical would be: a man breathing underwater, or any other act that defies the known laws of nature.

*Unless you're suggesting that God searched throughout the Universe and this was the only planet that fit his requirements to put man on? Of course that doesn't make sense, because allegedly God created the Universe too, so why would (s)he need to go through all the trouble.

[Tom Paine]

Because if there were different conditions, a different system would have developed - your argument is a little odd, it presumes the system to be the only possible one and to have been put in place in one model. Rather the system developes based on the general and environmental conditions it survives in.

[Hephaistos]

Because if there were different conditions, a different system would have developed - your argument is a little odd, it presumes the system to be the only possible one and to have been put in place in one model. Rather the system developes based on the general and environmental conditions it survives in.

I think you are wrong. For example take the Mars. The conditions there are not that bad: An atmosphere, it is in the green area of our solar system, the temperature are not that bad, the gravity is acceptable and so on... However there are only microorganisms there. So, only slightly different conditions and there is no greater life system. So, there is absolutly no evidence, that life is quite common.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in life on other planets, but I don't believe life to be really common and possible in every condition.

[Tiwaz]

I think you are wrong. For example take the Mars. The conditions there are not that bad: An atmosphere, it is in the green area of our solar system, the temperature are not that bad, the gravity is acceptable and so on... However there are only microorganisms there. So, only slightly different conditions and there is no greater life system. So, there is absolutly no evidence, that life is quite common.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in life on other planets, but I don't believe life to be really common and possible in every condition.

And you come to the conclusion that life is not common based on huge intake of 1 solar system out of trillions, 13 planets out ot countless trillions in those other solar systems.

That is really huge leap of faith. Specially considering that life evolving beyond micro-organisms takes also huge dose of luck. What would be the odds that two planets in one solar system have advanced lifeforms?

If one in 20 million planets would have life, Milky Way would still be packed with life.

[Hephaistos]

And you come to the conclusion that life is not common based on huge intake of 1 solar system out of trillions, 13 planets out ot countless trillions in those other solar systems.

That is really huge leap of faith. Specially considering that life evolving beyond micro-organisms takes also huge dose of luck. What would be the odds that two planets in one solar system have advanced lifeforms?

If one in 20 million planets would have life, Milky Way would still be packed with life.

No, I just did falsify a thesis. The thesis was: Life is common. If the conditions are different, life will adopt and a different systemwill evolve.

If this thesis would be correct, we must have significant life on a planet were only a few conditions are different. The conditions on Mars are really good comepared to other planets. But we don't have. Therefore it can't be true, that we will encounter life on every planet we will be able to travel to in the future.

All I am saying is, it is not this easy that a planet will develope life. Just imagine, for the amount of iron, humans have in their blood and do need to survive there have to been at least three novas in our neighborhood. You can't take that for granted. It is something special.

Of course there might perhaps be hundrets or thousant of inhabit planets in the galaxy only. But every planet is something noteable not something common. At least his is, what I do believe in.

[Tom Paine]

No, I just did falsify a thesis. The thesis was: Life is common. If the conditions are different, life will adopt and a different systemwill evolve.

If this thesis would be correct, we must have significant life on a planet were only a few conditions are different. The conditions on Mars are really good comepared to other planets. But we don't have. Therefore it can't be true, that we will encounter life on every planet we will be able to travel to in the future.

All I am saying is, it is not this easy that a planet will develope life. Just imagine, for the amount of iron, humans have in their blood and do need to survive there have to been at least three novas in our neighborhood. You can't take that for granted. It is something special.

Of course there might perhaps be hundrets or thousant of inhabit planets in the galaxy only. But every planet is something noteable not something common. At least his is, what I do believe in.

Except Mars does have significantly different conditions, not least the joint massively different (and thinner) atmosphere with the lack of water...

[Tiwaz]

No, I just did falsify a thesis. The thesis was: Life is common. If the conditions are different, life will adopt and a different systemwill evolve.

If this thesis would be correct, we must have significant life on a planet were only a few conditions are different. The conditions on Mars are really good comepared to other planets. But we don't have. Therefore it can't be true, that we will encounter life on every planet we will be able to travel to in the future.

All I am saying is, it is not this easy that a planet will develope life. Just imagine, for the amount of iron, humans have in their blood and do need to survive there have to been at least three novas in our neighborhood. You can't take that for granted. It is something special.

Of course there might perhaps be hundrets or thousant of inhabit planets in the galaxy only. But every planet is something noteable not something common. At least his is, what I do believe in.

No you didn't.

Life can be formed in different conditions, but conditions are not always alike and life formed by it is not by necessity alike.

Mars represent planet similar to Earth, thus it's lifeforms would most likely share some things that life on Earth has.

Problem. Mars has weaker gravity, resulting in thin athmosphere and greater deal of radiation getting through. It also is cold due to being further away from Sun and volcanically very stable (so no heat generated there either).
But apparently there at least has been microscopic life on Mars. Yes, it does not discuss with you but it IS life. It simply lost the big lottery and was unable to evolved further.

Not to mention that you apparently do not grasp that it is not just amount of differences but MAGNITUDE of differences which matters. Mars is very different from Earth in it's current form.

(some scientists believe there might be life on Europa, moon of Jupiter. so perhaps life is plentiful even in this solar system)

As for ideas like iron being necessity for life. Incorrect, it is at least theoretically possible to have lifeform depending on completely different materials than used here on Earth.

You have not falsified thesis, you simply assume that common would have to mean that there have to be humans on every planet you point at. Mars on minimum had life, Europa might have live, Earth has life.

[Chaigidel]

yeah but the eventuality of the current existence was never set in stone--- which makes existence itself quite magical by its very nature of existence

[Chaigidel]

the only reason we havent discovered more life is because we are limited by our location as our technology improves life will be found everywhere :O

I still find it quite magical to even be alive, a chance among chances among chances, and here we are

[Curtana]

Water is miraculous. Is that not magical enough? Just because it can be explained doesn't mean it is not awe inspiringly amazing.

[morteduzionism]

Water is miraculous. Is that not magical enough? Just because it can be explained doesn't mean it is not awe inspiringly amazing.

I'm not trying to suggest things can't be, "awe inspiringly amazing"...

To use the article you linked:

It has often been stated (for example, [127]) that life depends on these anomalous properties of water. In particular, the large heat capacity, high thermal conductivity and high water content in organisms contribute to thermal regulation and prevent local temperature fluctuations, thus allowing us to more easily control our body temperature.

What I'm asking is 'why' is that? Why do we need our body temperature regulated?(rhetorical) If we were created, it just doesn't make sense: why would we have to eat? what purpose does eating serve(in the eyes of a creator)? why would the creator need us to sweat? and on-n-on...

[Sadreddine]

Why do we need our body temperature regulated?(rhetorical) If we were created, it just doesn't make sense: why would we have to eat? what purpose does eating serve(in the eyes of a creator)? why would the creator need us to sweat? and on-n-on...

This is the weakest rethoric I've read in a while. What does the blind theist and the blind atheist share? Make a guesswork. Hint: it is an adjective.

It seems that for some reason, you don't like the word creation. At least, your argument is reduced to this statement. However, the thing is, you are a created being, because you're not uncreated. Your matter is finite, temporal, and is the result of some complicated combinations/developments in both nature and time. The reasons why you exist as such are basically 2 as long as this issue concerns:

1. You are.
2. You remain being (until your corporal functions cease, if we are speaking about the sensibilia).

1 is clear, 2 is the neccessary reason, or combination or reasons, why you keep existing. "Why" do you sweat, eat or breath air? Once you have come into existence (that is, having been created, because if you were not, you'd be either eternal or pure possibility=nothingness), it is quite obvious that you need to remain being, for a while that is, if we speak about your matter. And to remain being, your organism keeps functioning, because if it ceased, you'd be dead meat and you wouldn't be claiming nonsensical rethoric at this thread.

It is quite simple in fact: creation is the culmination of a process of development that results in your being. Either this development is fractionary or continuated and not interrupted in time it is another issue.

In order for me to find that miraculous I would need a frame of reference(i.e. 99.99% of the universe explored and NO other forms of life found)...

Truly your mind is miracolous if you can translate into a definite quantity of space the 99,99% of a state usually taken as infinite.

Instead worrying about stuff like reported hand healing being a miracle or not, you should see the miracle in your existence, for if you didn't exist (if you hadn't been created) you would be nothing. You should see the miracle in the perfect system of creation in which you are but a insignificant part. And the least thing a human being can do is being grateful for having been created, meaning existing, and remain in existence.

[MET]

life wasn't created, it developed over miljons of years.
there has to be a start, obviously, but to call it life "created" sounds so...
i don't really know. it just sounds weird.

[Curtana]

If you really want to see the fur and feathers fly just ask why God created evil. He created man so that he would suffer. Why did he make man imperfect so that he needed to suffer? Because He is a total bastard.

[Earl of Rochester]

The answer would be so that we can truly control our own destinies. If there was magic then we would essentially be unable to have progress. Obviously God wants us to have the freedom to progress ourselves to destruction.

Of course I don't believe any of that, but I would think it could be a sound argument if religion was sound.

[Tom Paine]

Water is miraculous. Is that not magical enough? Just because it can be explained doesn't mean it is not awe inspiringly amazing.

Its still not miraculous. A miracle is a breach of the (immutable) laws of nature, by divine intervention. This is logically impossible. Miracles therefore cannt happen. Yay for Hume and Russell.

If you really want to see the fur and feathers fly just ask why God created evil. He created man so that he would suffer. Why did he make man imperfect so that he needed to suffer? Because He is a total bastard.

Ah, a Russell man.