Unique Buildings

[dvk901]

At what point, though, Cherry, do you decide what is the 'alternate reality' and history? Afterall, the Great Pantheon has 'Agrippa Built This' carved in huge letters right across the front of it? I personally feel like I am 'progressing thru' a historical setting when I build these.....far more rewarding than just building the 'generic' baths and forums of RTW...which really were most often named by\for the person who built them. All of Rome's major highways were named after the Consul who built them, which is where 'Via Consularius' comes from. There is just so much more depth when you attach a 'human being' who really lived with something you build and see a picture of.

Examples:

Aurelian Walls
Trajan's Column
Arch of Constantine
Via Appia, was begun by Appius Claudius Caecus in 312 BC
Temple of Julius Caesar
Via Aurelia
Via Flaminia (220BC), It was constructed by Gaius Flaminius during his censorship (220 BC).

The list goes on and on.....

[rory o'kane]

"Aurelian's Walls"? where were they?

[cherryfunk]

At what point, though, Cherry, do you decide what is the 'alternate reality' and history?

For me, when you specifically cite a person who may or may not even exist in the 'alternate reality.' I prefer that none of the unique buildings refer to a person by name.

[dvk901]

All of the names mentioned so far ARE actually in the list of names the game can choose from? But here's the quandry I have with what you've said. Buildings like the 'Great Altar of Zeus' are one thing.....if you were to say, 'Great Altar of Attalid II', then I would have an issue with that, because it was never referred to that way. By what would you call 'Trajan's Column'? This is a well known and very famous Roman artifact....how could you just call it 'Column' and have anyone know what you meant? There were many of them....but all were dedicated to someone.

As far as I'm concerned, to strip the names from many Roman unique buildings is stripping their value and history from them, and some were only famous in the first place because of whom they were named for. This was a particularly 'Roman' quirk, I realize, unlike other civs.

[cherryfunk]

By what would you call 'Trajan's Column'? This is a well known and very famous Roman artifact....how could you just call it 'Column' and have anyone know what you meant?

Trajan's Column is another example of a building I wouldn't include; it was erected by a specific Emperor -- who may not appear in your campaign -- for a specific military achievement -- which almost certainly will not take place in your campaign. Since the columns were only erected to celebrate military achievements, they shouldn't be offered as unique buildings in the mod. A 'Great Forum', on the other hand, is a huge market that could have been erected by any great leader and requires no military exploit to explain, so it would make a good unique building.

[rory o'kane]

Then let's drop the temples - the gods don't appear in the campaign, so why bother?
also, the circus maximus will have to go, as that was built by trajan.... and we can't include his shopping complex....
i know, lets just drop everything built by any emperor, as they may not exist in the campaign. better still, let's drop the whole roman civilization, as after all, Rome is named after Romulus, who doesnt exist in the campaign (and we're not even sure he existed ever)!

[ARMENIOS]

I suggest to add Karahunj to.

Here is information http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/...threaded&start=

Others:

Erebuni fortress
Musasir Temple instead of Garni
Temple- holycity on the Nemrut Mountain
Qaba Stone- in Arabia

Maybe this one to
History Unearthed: Archeologists find evidence of settlement millennia older than Yerevan/Erebuni


Before there was Yerevan/Erebuni, there was this ...

Excavations in the Yerevan district of Shengavit over the past two years have uncovered a city which local and some foreign archeologists believe to have been settled five thousand years before the birth of Christ. Scientists say the site has yielded some of the archeologically-richest finds in all the Caucasus, and if the dating proves accurate, it would mean that the area was settled nearly 4,000 years before the Urartus founded Yerevan.

Among the unearthed remains are jewelry, female idols, baked-clay statues, a furnace for making flint forging instruments, suggesting a developed settlement. More than 50 horse bones have been found, evidence of developed horse-breeding - a find that archeologists say is the first of its kind in the Caucasus.

Shengavit is not a new site of interests for archeologists. The shapeless hill some 30 meters above the Yerevan Lake has been the focus of scientific study since 1936, when archeologist Yevgeni Bayburdyan started a two-year study there.

In 1958, excavations were renewed by a group of archeologists under the leadership of Sandro Sardaryan. After 1985, however, the area was turned into a training ground for archeological practice. It remained an archeological laboratory until last year and over the years the site itself suffered damage as a result.

Research restarted in 2000, but was sporadic. But new funding from the British Embassy (about $4,000) helped the research continue since September. It is being carried out by the Armenian Center of Cultural-Historical Heritage.

Two main areas have been the focus of excavation. In one, an area of about 250 square meters, evidence of brick and river-stone walls was found. In the second area, on the hill's northern side researchers found a wall surrounding the city.

"The low level dwellings discovered as a result of the excavations were two-to-three meters below the ground level," says director of the Center, historian Hakob Simonyan.

According to Simonyan the dwellings were built in a hurry, using available materials, not paying attention to the aesthetic side and also ignoring seismic stability.

Unlike its common first-level houses, two meters below the ground level are dwellings made of stone blocks and basalt, mortared with clay, and are of rectangular, polygonal and round shapes.

"The variety of construction materials indicates that the society was divided into different social and economic groups," Simonyan says.

Onyx, marble and granite staffs were found among structures that surprised scientists by their sense of aesthetics and attention to seismic stability.

"A very interesting method of building the lodgings was used to resist earthquakes," Simonyan says. "Stones were attached to each other with weeds dipped into liquid clay. This made the walls more flexible and protected from the quakes."

Sanctuaries, decorated by ornamentation depicting rams, stone instruments and clay plates made with great professionalism were also found here.

Obsidian stones were used for the sheep eyes, which according to ancient belief, was a symbol of protection. "This is the first case in Armenia when eyes of an animal are decorated by stones," Simonyan says.

Pear-shaped barns for storing grain, with round entrances were also found. The huge, four-meter deep storages could have held four tons of wheat. A large quantity of sickles, axes, and tools for wheat milling were found in the barn areas.

The principles of town-planning and house construction suggest that Shengavit was once a city.

Further, remnants of a forge with nine smelts indicate an industrial settlement producing copper.

Some of the artifacts have been sent to Germany, where archeologists there confirm local scientists' belief that the finding - from the bronze age - shows Yerevan to have been built not only on the basis of the ancient city of Erebuni, but also on the basis of this earlier founded habitat.

[dvk901]

Dang, Rory! Chill out.

[cherryfunk]

Then let's drop the temples - the gods don't appear in the campaign, so why bother?

:|

[rory o'kane]

hmph. i just object to the idea that you shouldn't get to build a highly significant building just because the bloke that built it isnt in the game - Trajan built the Circus Maximus as it's represented by the picture it has now, and there's the colisseum - i dont see how you can allow these to be in, but not Trajan's Forum, just because it's named after the bloke. i was being VERY sarcastic, but I make my point clear, i don't see why Cherry, that you should object to the afforementioned buildings...?

[dvk901]

hmph. i just object to the idea that you shouldn't get to build a highly significant building just because the bloke that built it isnt in the game - Trajan built the Circus Maximus as it's represented by the picture it has now, and there's the colisseum - i dont see how you can allow these to be in, but not Trajan's Forum, just because it's named after the bloke. i was being VERY sarcastic, but I make my point clear, i don't see why Cherry, that you should object to the afforementioned buildings...?

An interesting difference between Roman and Greek buildings that has to be considered as well is first, that the Romans were very status concious, so named things after themselves, but also, Roman Emperors became 'gods'.
So buildings named after them became reverred..at least in the 'politically correct' sense...as the accomplishments of a 'god'. This is clearly eveident in the works and 'doings' of all Roman rulers from Caesar to the last of the 'Five Good Emperors'....Antonius Pius, (I think).

In this sense, many of these buildings would clearly be, and ARE recognized in the way the Romans recognized them......the works and\or Temples of the 'gods'. So in a sense, yes, Athena is not in the game, nor Ares or Zeus....but these were all gods. So was Augustus, Trajan, Hadrian, etc. to the Romans.

[rory o'kane]

the last of the five good emperors was marcus aurelius. could you please clarify your point, DVK? are you saying that their works SHOULD be included because of their status, or shouldnt?

[dvk901]

I would put these in the same category as a lot of other things we know as 'famous and unique', such as:

Mausoleum of Maussollos at Halicarnassus....Maussollos being a Persian King.
Temple of Artemis....a god
Lincoln Memorial...an American Icon, so to speak.

Legions named after an Emperor or King:

Legio II Augusta
Legio XI Claudia
Legio IV Flavia Felix
Legio XXII Deiotariana

So, my contention is that we allow the player to recreate their own history in this game, yes: but 'within the context of real history'. The fact that certain names don't show up doesn't negate the fact that they existed in this era in which you are playing. Therefore they have a rightful place.

[rory o'kane]

ah i see. that makes sense. thanks

[pseudocaesar]

actually mausolus was the satrap of caria, the capital being halicarnassus, not king of persia but anyway, im officially free from uni (wooo) exams are over and il get stuck into stockpiling as many buildings and monuments and cool things as i can.

[cherryfunk]

hmph. i just object to the idea that you shouldn't get to build a highly significant building just because the bloke that built it isnt in the game - Trajan built the Circus Maximus as it's represented by the picture it has now, and there's the colisseum - i dont see how you can allow these to be in, but not Trajan's Forum, just because it's named after the bloke.

I don't have a problem with Trajan's Forum, I just wouldn't call it Trajan's Forum because it won't, in a player's campaign, be built by Trajan. And the Columns aren't buildings at all, they are commemorative monuments and so make no sense as unique buildings, since the events they commemorate will not have happened in the campaign.

[rory o'kane]

how do you know i won't conquer dacia, eh?

[dvk901]

Ok, where do you live. I'm going to have to send a couple Legions to Romanize your region! Speaking out of the OTHER side of my mouth, I agree that 'columns' and 'arches' would be different....but not excluded. These were built by multiple Generals and Emperors (quite a few of which were very petty and meaningless ones) to commemorate their achievments and\or victories. My intention for having them as 'buildings' was that, as the player, you build these in a city to commemorate 'your' victories as a General\Emperor. The in-game description explains this, and why the Romans built them.....and none are named after a particular person. And this was in fact a particularly Roman practice. I consider these to be in a 'different category' of so-called 'buildings'...which is a misnomer...it's just a historically accurate 'depth' to add to the game.

The uniquely named Roman buildings, as I've said, however, are another thing. If they existed today, as so few do, I would really classify them as close to 'wonders of the world'. Why? Simply for engineering, advancement, or beauty. (ie, The Great Panteon)

http://www.casaumbria.com/images/ita...lla_tivoli.gif

The above building, for instance, Hadrian's Villa, is a UNESCO World Heritage site. If it were to exist intact, I'm sure it would be a fabulous example of Roman opulence. I would put it in the game if I knew how. Why, because it's a piece of Roman history. It adds depth, understanding, and reality to an otherwise 'generic' RTW Vanilla experience. But what I might do in this instance is substitute this picture for the Roman Imperial Palace, explain what it is, and leave it at that. Still, which makes more sense...not having it at all, or building the same Imperial Palace with this description everywhere?

My preferrence would be a 'unique building'...because it wasn't just AN Imperial Palace built everywhere, it was THE Imperial Palace in Rome.

I feel this way about ANY unique building, by the way, not just Roman. Be it Greek, Armenian, Egyptian or whatever.


Which reminds me, what would you guys think about substituting 'The Acropolis' for the Mausoleum as a 'wonder'? Just a thought. The location of the wonder, and the text can all be changed, so we could substitute a wonder for a wonder.

[cherryfunk]

I agree that 'columns' and 'arches' would be different....but not excluded. These were built by multiple Generals and Emperors (quite a few of which were very petty and meaningless ones) to commemorate their achievments and\or victories. My intention for having them as 'buildings' was that, as the player, you build these in a city to commemorate 'your' victories as a General\Emperor. The in-game description explains this, and why the Romans built them.....and none are named after a particular person. And this was in fact a particularly Roman practice. I consider these to be in a 'different category' of so-called 'buildings'...which is a misnomer...it's just a historically accurate 'depth' to add to the game.

This is a good idea, let the player commemmorate their own victories, and give the building a modest happiness bonus, I like it.

Which reminds me, what would you guys think about substituting 'The Acropolis' for the Mausoleum as a 'wonder'? Just a thought. The location of the wonder, and the text can all be changed, so we could substitute a wonder for a wonder.

But the Mausoleum WAS one of the 8 wonders, that's why it's included as one, and the Acropolis was not. Switching it wouldn't make any sense. But whatever you do, please remove the Wonder bonuses or at least restrict them severely...

[dvk901]

This is a good idea, let the player commemmorate their own victories, and give the building a modest happiness bonus, I like it.


But the Mausoleum WAS one of the 8 wonders, that's why it's included as one, and the Acropolis was not. Switching it wouldn't make any sense. But whatever you do, please remove the Wonder bonuses or at least restrict them severely...

What would also be cool is if you could tie this in somehow with the little 'crossed sword' major battle symbol that shows up sometimes, and your General earning a 'heroic victory' trait or something......then the ability to build a column or arch or temple or whatever comes. Oh well, one can dream.