Naval research

**ME2_junky** · June 15, 2007, 08:29 PM

Possible naval enhancements!

It is in my opinion that there is need for a major overhaul of ships in medieval. Even without proper battles.
As I suggested earlier there should be some ships for long voyages, troop carrying & war. To exapnd on that there should also be three levels of sea worthiness; ocean faring, sea faring and coastal. (as was in medieval 1)
Important to note that a ship that IS NOT a warship could still put up a fight & IF it were possible to vary capacity and or range of ships then descriptions would be different.

These are my suggestions and short research into the matter.
(I assumed specifying varying troop capacity is impossible and so go with what MIGHT possibly be implemented)
===================================
Naval units

By faction

===================================
Arab vessels (Seljuk, Almuhad, Egyptian, Mongol as well)

Zanuq - coastal, warship.

Dhow - coastal, troop carrying.

Baghalha - sea faring, troop carrying.

Sanbuq - sea faring, warship.

Boum - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.

===================================
Venice/Milan/Aragon

Galiot - coastal, warship, troop carrying

Galley - sea faring, troop carrying.

Galley Sottil - sea faring, warship.
(Venice Only)

Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.

Hunter - ocean faring, warship

Explorer - ocean faring, troop carrying.
===================================
Northern European
(English, Scottish, Irish, French & German)

Cog - coastal troop carrying.

Holk – sea faring, troop carrying.

Gun Holk – sea faring, warship

Man of war - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship
(English and French only)

Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.

Hunter - ocean faring, warship

Explorer - ocean faring, troop carrying

Flute - ocean faring, troop carrying. (Toughest troop carrier)
(Very late unit, should not be seen prior to 1499)

===================================
Eastern European
(Hungary, Poland, Novgorod)

Cog - coastal troop carrying.

Lad’ya – sea faring, warship (Novgorod only)

Holk – sea faring, troop carrying.

Gun Holk – sea faring, warship

Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.

===================================
Denmark

Longboat - sea faring, troop carrying

Longship – sea faring, troop carrying

Dragonboat – sea faring, warship

Dragonship – sea faring warship

Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.
(Just to be nice

)

===================================
Portugal/Spain/Sicily

Cog - coastal troop carrying.

Galley - sea faring, troop carrying.

War Galley sea faring, warship.

Lanternass – sea faring, warship

Caravel - ocean faring, troop carrying.

Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.

Grande Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying,warship
(only for Portugal/Spain)

===================================
Knights Templar
(World renowned for their seamanship skills

)

Galley - sea faring, troop carrying.

War Galley sea faring, warship.

Caravel - ocean faring, troop carrying.

===================================
Byzantium

Dromon - sea faring, warship.

Fire Ship – sea faring. warship.

Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.

Assuming Byzantium would have survived the Ottomans they would no doubt have learnt a lesson or two from the often called upon fleet of Venice.
===================================
Warship Strength
(starting from the weak. Only warships will be mentioned)
Zanuq - coastal, warship.
Galiot - coastal, warship
Dragonboat – sea faring, warship
Lad’ya – sea faring, warship
War galley - sea faring, warship.
Dromon - sea faring, warship.
Sanbuq - sea faring, warship.
Dragonship – sea faring warship

---Gunpowder---

Fire Ship – sea faring. warship. (Due to period, not guns)
Gun Holk – sea faring, warship.
Galley Sottil - sea faring, warship.
Lanternass – sea faring, warship

---New World---
Boum - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.
Man of war - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.
Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship.
Hunter - ocean faring, warship
Grande Carrack - ocean faring, troop carrying, warship

===================================

Note: A vessel that is not a warship could still attack, but its attack capability should be severly handicapped. This is not to say that the early 16th centuary Flute used by the Dutch could not outgun and sink a Lanternass with ease, as it could definitely do that!
Generally, to keep things simple, an ocean faring vessel should be a match for a sea faring warship, more or less. (usually less)
===================================

Details, ALOT of them, you have been warned!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

P.S.

Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken as it will only improve things. (assuming this information is used

)

**Goose** · June 15, 2007, 08:53 PM

Very nice, would add completely new dimensions to the more naval nations.

**King Kong** · June 16, 2007, 07:16 AM

Hi M2 Junky,

Great information! Thanks for your effort to make this game more interesting and historically more accurate!
I really highly appreciate that!

It would be good to know which factions built these ships, then maybe I can implement some of them!
However, please no hurry with your research, it doesn't need to be all included at once...
Cheers!

**numerosdecimus** · June 16, 2007, 08:02 AM

Don't forget the "Great Carrack", which was a different version of the standard carrack, both comertial and military.

15th century exploration in caravels were done just by portuguese explorers, thus the caravel is a unique unit.

caravel - equipment transport, gunpowder, guns, etc. Troop carring, exploration, military support in amunitition etc, the carracks were the truly military ships.

Concering definition of carrack. The carrack was invented in te 12th century, however, these ships were made for the mediterranian waters and the black sea waters, these carracks did not have the capacty for ocean travel. Only in the 1480's did the portuguese start to adapt them to be truly ocean travel ships not to mention being the first in putting cannon's in the decks of ships.

If you want to be historically accurate you will have to make more than one kind of carrack.

This game goes until the 1530's. The galleon and other ships weren't invented until then, you have to start eliminating from the list some of the ships.

**ME2_junky** · June 16, 2007, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by numerosdecimus

Don't forget the "Great Carrack", which was a different version of the standard carrack, both comertial and military.

15th century exploration in caravels were done just by portuguese explorers, thus the caravel is a unique unit.

caravel - equipment transport, gunpowder, guns, etc. Troop carring, exploration, military support in amunitition etc, the carracks were the truly military ships.

Concering definition of carrack. The carrack was invented in te 12th century, however, these ships were made for the mediterranian waters and the black sea waters, these carracks did not have the capacty for ocean travel. Only in the 1480's did the portuguese start to adapt them to be truly ocean travel ships not to mention being the first in putting cannon's in the decks of ships.

If you want to be historically accurate you will have to make more than one kind of carrack.

This game goes until the 1530's. The galleon and other ships weren't invented until then, you have to start eliminating from the list some of the ships.

Good stuff mate

Grande Carrack added as well as possible names.

@King
Will sort by factions quickish.

**numerosdecimus** · June 16, 2007, 12:48 PM

I wouldn't put the galleon at all(if you're refering to the galleon of the 16th century, the evolution of the carrack).

The galleon was invented in the 1560's - 1580's.

The ships that should be put for each faction should reflect history, however, we must also have in mind gameplay. All factions need an ocean ship, and the carrack will do that job.

Concerning unique units:

The Grand carrack is a Portuguese unique unit, the Spanish did have Carracks, but they didn't have the "grande nau", nor did anyone else, and "the grande nau" is indeed the grande carrack. The grande carrack in my opinoin is to be with 100% certainty a portuguese unique unit.

Concerning the caravel. Should other civs have this ship? We should discuss this.

Concerning the grand carrack in terms of power. The grande nau could reach the 1.5 Ktons. A normal galleon (16th century) reaches about 500 tons.

I would remove the galleon completely from the list, it's too far beyond the limit date. And the grande nau should be the highest in the list of "new world ships".

Man of War is to be below the carrack. Historically that's the correct way. The carrack had everything the man of war had but unlike the man of war it could carry more one sail (thus making it more efficient in the sea). Don't confuse "Man of War" with "Man O' War".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-of-war

**shaeffer** · June 16, 2007, 01:35 PM

God I wish I could look at this thread and NOT think 'Belly Button Research'

Either way though, this sort of thing sounds absolutely fantastic, bellybutton warfare is the only thing really missing from the game mechanics wise

Shaeff

**ME2_junky** · June 16, 2007, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by shaeffer

God I wish I could look at this thread and NOT think 'Belly Button Research'

Either way though, this sort of thing sounds absolutely fantastic, bellybutton warfare is the only thing really missing from the game mechanics wise

Shaeff

I am uncertain what you meant by that...but if you mean the research is shallow you are quite right.

P.S.

Don't forget I'm just one guy and I do not have 1500 man hours to put into research for something that is implemeted in the game as an afterthought.

**numerosdecimus** · June 16, 2007, 06:54 PM

Concerning the Man Of war and the carrack. It seems that both are very close in being the same thing, the biggest difference was the name itself. In the mediterranian they used the word "carraca", "nau" "nao", etc. In the northern countries they used the word "Man of War". The thing is that, a normal carrack can be just as well equiped as a "Man of War", if its user wishes so.

What if you make them balanced but with some cost changes? It could reflect their slight differences. What if you make the man of war cheaper than a standard carrack but slightly weaker, and the carrack with it's vanilla definitions and price.

In short: The "Man of War" was technically a carrack just for warfare. On the other hand, a "standard" carrack was flexible, as it could be used for sea faring, amunition tranport, troops transport, or warfare.

Concerning the caravel, the caravel can indeed be used for bellical purposes, and I think it should be in the warship list without any problems, but warfare was not it's main functionality when you have in mind its design, however, it could be be used for such purposes and it was indeed used for such purposes.

An example of this would be during the "Battle of Diu".

**shaeffer** · June 17, 2007, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by ME2_junky

I am uncertain what you meant by that...but if you mean the research is shallow you are quite right.

P.S.

Don't forget I'm just one guy and I do not have 1500 man hours to put into research for something that is implemeted in the game as an afterthought.

Oh God no, far from it. I really do think this is an excellent idea - whether it can be made to work I don't know.

The 'proper' word for your belly button is Navel....first time I saw this topic it was just the first thing that came into my head

Researching into bellybuttons

**ME2_junky** · June 17, 2007, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by shaeffer

Oh God no, far from it. I really do think this is an excellent idea - whether it can be made to work I don't know.

The 'proper' word for your belly button is Navel....first time I saw this topic it was just the first thing that came into my head

Researching into bellybuttons

I geddit

**Ludicus** · June 17, 2007, 08:16 AM

Numerusdecimus is quite right about the caravels and grand carracks.

Concerning the caravel. Should other civs have this ship? We should discuss this.

The caravels were a portuguese invention and the grand or great carracks are no more no less than the « the great Naus of Portugal» as the English used to call them.
About the caravels:

The Caravel
The Portuguese caravel of the early fifteenth century looks at first sight more like a misbegotten hybrid of the sailing ships of two continents than the medieval equivalent of the Apollo space capsule. But Apollo is its closest relative in more ways than one. Apollo changed our world by giving us a moon's-eye view of it. The caravel changed the medieval world far more, as it crept around the shores of Africa, encountered unknown lands, and made way for the Age of Discovery, led by Vasco da Gama and Christopher Columbus. Like the Apollo program, the building and voyages of the caravels were hideously expensive; they eventually drained away to nothing the enormous wealth of their principal backer, Prince Henry of Portugal (Henry the Navigator, 1394-1460). And like Apollo, the early caravels were built as compact as they could be for their immense task of exploration, then every bit as difficult as reaching the moon.
There are no surviving caravels, nor even any detailed plans of them. The Portuguese carpenters who built the caravels were prohibited from explaining how they were constructed or from selling ships to foreigners. But we can get a pretty good idea of how they looked from surviving sketches. The body of the vessel is reminiscent of the small galleons you see in pirate movies for children, minus the rows of guns belowdecks. But the sails are not the square rig you might expect. Instead, they are triangular and hung from a sloping beam, like the rigging of the Arabian dhows that still sail the Indian Ocean, except that the caravel had two, three, and later four masts.
The caravel was indeed a hybrid of European and Arabian influences. With its triangular sails drawn in tight like those of a modern racing yacht, it could sail at an angle close to the wind instead of simply being blown along like the early square-rigger. At best, square-rigged sails of the period could fill only when they were more than 65 degrees off the wind, and square-riggers were condemned either to seek out following winds or forever tack impotently back and forth.
The caravel design was perfected in the early to mid-fifteenth century during a series of voyages financed by Prince Henry. Portugal was then at the far edge of the known world, thousands of miles overland from the wealth of Asia and the spice trade, and Henry's ambition was in part to find a southern route to Asia by going beyond the known limits of the North African coast. (In part, too, Henry may have hoped to find the fabled Christian kingdom of Prester John.) To attempt this mission, not only did the boats have to be improved, but so too did navigation, cartography, astronomy, and the knowledge of winds and tides -- and so they were, in a vastly expensive program centered on the school of navigation that Prince Henry established at Sagres.
The caravels were only some sixty to one hundred feet long. They did not have space for substantial cargo, as trade was not their immediate goal; they were vessels of exploration -- the maritime equivalent of a space probe. They were built with tightly sealed decks and small hatches and coated with pitch to make them as watertight as possible. Later, thanks to the development of strong new ropes and the use of expensive sails of cotton or linen canvas, it was possible to simplify and reduce the rigging. This meant that the crew of each vessel could number as few as twenty-five people, and the length of their voyages without restocking could be extended. The ships were built with shallow drafts. That, in combination with their ability to sail close to the wind and the maneuverability provided by a rudder hung from an axle, made them the best boats to explore the African coast against the prevailing winds.
At the nautical academy Henry founded at Sagres, on the southwestern tip of Portugal, new methods of navigation and ways of using the stars were developed. As the caravels began to make their way south and the northern stars were lost beneath the horizon, navigation methods that read off the height of the polestar on an astrolabe to give latitude could not be used. Instead, tables were developed that enabled the sun to be used as a substitute. But of the greatest importance was that systematic information gathering and mapmaking were begun. The caravels were expected -- and eventually required -- to bring back detailed logs of their voyages, which enabled not only the route around Africa to be mapped but also the pattern of ocean currents.
Even so, the voyages attempted by the Portuguese were daunting. In 1410, nothing was known of Africa south of Cape Bojador (which lies just beyond the modern border of Morocco). From Cape Bojador onward, the shore was barren, backed by the great desert, and the winds and current were unfavorable for a return to Portugal. It was believed that no one who passed the cape would ever return. Henry's first great success was in his expeditions that discovered the islands of Madeira (1419) and the Azores (1431). These offshore islands enabled the crews to find safer routes home from North Africa by swinging out to sea and avoiding unfavorable currents. Even so, it took a further fifteen attempts for the first ships to pass Cape Bojador and move south toward Senegal.
Through these decades, Prince Henry had few supporters for his expensive voyages of exploration. But in 1441, by which time caravel design had advanced rapidly, one of his ships traveled far enough south to make contact with African cultures. The ship returned to Portugal with two Africans. It was the first direct contact by sea between Europe and black Africa and created enormous excitement well beyond the borders of Portugal.
The Age of Discovery began. In 1460 Henry died, with his last expedition having reached Cape Verde, still far short of the point where the African coastline turns east toward modern Nigeria. But before the end of the century Vasco da Gama had rounded southern Africa and reached India. Separate cultures came into contact with one another (sometimes with horrific consequences, as the slave trade took root) and international sea trade began. A turning point in history had been passed, thanks to the tiny, brilliantly engineered caravels and the new skills of navigation and mapmaking.

Alun Anderson is the editor of New Scientist.

**ME2_junky** · June 16, 2007, 03:21 PM

@numerosdecimus
Well...I know most of what you said...I suppose the Galleon is a bit far fetched.
As for the Man of War...I did not know the carrack was its superior. Cheers mate!

**Mike13531** · June 16, 2007, 04:21 PM

It's very nice junkie, but i don't like the idea of some ship which cannot carry troops, that will seal off early island battles, not to mention will AI be smart enough to use certain ships to do what?

**ME2_junky** · June 16, 2007, 05:17 PM

I have voiced this idea in part to KK and he said he will look into it as we do not really know if it can be done.
(Please don't bother KK about it he probably has enough things to do as is.)

As for the AI, I am fairly certain the AI will have no clue as it was never designed to use ships with capabilities that did not exist.

There are four major problems;

1. It is not known if there can be three 'depth' levels to create coastal, sea and ocean 'waters' to utilize this proposed system.

2. The chances are slim for creating ships that cannot carry troops.

3. The chances for varying the unit carrying capacity of ships is practically impossible.

4. We do not know if individual ship movement can be implemented. E.G. some ships should have more or less movement points than others.

So if these 4 problems cannot be resolved, I suppose all this research can really be good for is some new vessels and names.

P.S.

Perhaps if these four issues cannot be addressed than the kingdoms expansion would at least enable one or two to be solved.:hmmm:

**ME2_junky** · June 16, 2007, 08:39 PM

@numerosdecimus
For some reason I thought I answered this post...I must have closed the window before I submitted.
(somtimes I leave them open for hours)

Anyways, I have updated the lists according to your suggestions & suppose that I could type up a complete costs/stats list.

**Ghosty** · June 17, 2007, 02:48 AM

i think there are dept levels in the game.... cause when i was moving my ships towards the americas the number of squres they could travel was very limited... i am assuming there is a mechanism there to flag how much movements points are needed to transverse the square which could also be used to flag if its a deep/shallow square... just my thinking...

**King Kong** · June 17, 2007, 06:22 PM

Hi M2 Junky,

That's absolutely great information!

You are really a talented researcher!

I don't know if I will enough time, but I think it shouldn't be too hard too make some first general ship changes (i.e. names) for some factions.
I will tell you when I know more...
A big thanks for your work!

Also, thanks numerosdecimus and all others who helped there!

**ME2_junky** · June 17, 2007, 08:01 PM

@Ludicus
I completely agree...I didn't think it would be a big issue to give Spain a caravel...perhaps the grande carrack is a bit too much generosity towards spain but Sicily definitely should have neither...
Think we could agree to keep the caravel & grande carrack for Spain and Portugal?? I know it isn't right but I figure, if Portugal is the only one to have the Grande Carrack they could not be matched by anyone Which is the reason I thought giving those units to Spain, Portugal and Sicily was alright.
Hmm...I guess my brother is going to have to live without the Grande Carrack..

(he likes to play Sicily)

@King
It's my pleasure really. I just like the mod and I would like to make it better so it can be all it can be. Also I'm hoping this will encourage others to help in a any way they can.
End result, makes life easier for you, people get some of the things they want in the game they love, everyone has more fun.

P.S.

Makes you wonder how anyone would not want to contribute.

**Ludicus** · June 17, 2007, 08:17 PM

@ME2_junky
Agreed,this is only a game,it´s not about history accuracy

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