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Thread: Ultimate Battle AI 1.2 *UPDATE*

  1. #121
    DrBeast's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Uhm...translation please for those that sprechen nichts deutch?

    (Actually I think I figured out most of it, I didn't get what the dude asked Peter)

  2. #122

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Hey Peter.
    Hm?
    If a tree falls over in a forest, but noone is there to hear it. Does it still make a noise?
    No Idea, ask the captain.
    ----
    I do not regret anything!

  3. #123

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Yes, im sorry, i simply do not feel very funny, when i try to translate the humor. Iīll try to think of something funny in english in the future.

    Iati te matenis ta germanika, bre file?
    (And i never tried writing greek with latin letters as well, as you might notice)

    dm04īs translation is correct.

    Guys on the left side:
    Paul: "Hey, Peter."
    Peter: "Hm?"
    Paul: "If a tree crashes down in the forest and nooneīs there to hear it...[What do you think,] is there a sound?"
    Peter: "Dunno...Ya got to ask the captain."

    Guy on the right hand side:
    "I repent nothing!"


    And now letīs stop to spam GrandVizīs thread or he might steal our Oktoberfest in retribution. (Those prussians already got their hands on our spies of the BND. Uh-oh!)

  4. #124
    DrBeast's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Heh, ok, I got most of it right then
    Back on topic: bridge battles have not been touched yet, right? After an epic open field battle where a 3/4-stack of my army fell along with its general to almost 3...no wait...4 full stacks of Mongols (I lost, but damn was it intense! If only I hadn't been absorbed by those damn Hobilars chasing the Mongol trebuchet crew...aaaaaaargh!), and a siege battle where the fallen general's brother avenged his death by annihilating the remaining Mongols that had holed up in Adana licking their wounds, I had a river crossing battle with the last 3 full-stacks of Mongols (Horde, once again), including all their remaining family members. They were royally wiped out! I mean, after the previous truly (I repeat) EPIC battles, the last one was a push-over! You spoil us GrandViz!

  5. #125

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    hi grand, been using your mods for a while now an just wanted to say they are wonderful this question might have been answerd already but ill ask again since im new to the forums if u dont mind. been using ubai now for many hours an was wondering if there is a fix for the passive ai when they attack a human city with multiple stacks, while 1 will siege the other or others will not engage at all. again thanks for the great mods an grats on the battle ai very well done.

  6. #126
    GrandViZ's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    This is a vanilla bug, and I haven't found a possibility to fix it yet.
    Creator of the Ultimate AI
    Co-Author of Broken Crescent

    Under the Patronage of Trajan

  7. #127

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Some more feedback:
    My counterattack during a siege: hungary sieged my town with a lot of spear men, slavish peasants, 3 units peasant crossbowmen, 2 mailed knights, bodyguard. On my side fought a general and 8 units of mounted sergenats (not sure about their name, its the first light cavalry unit for hre). As I couldnt defend the city walls with cavalry, I decided for a counter attack. The AI just stood there, backed up from siege equipment and stood still. I charged its lines, backed up, charged again, the AI still doing nothing. After 10minutes the AI was defeated, with lost 800 men and I well .... 20. The odds were 1:3 (hungard had more men)

    Besieging a town
    1) victim to archers: I besieged a town only with archers (10x peasant archers). The AI had a wide variety of light infantry. BattleOdds 1:1. I moved closer to the wells and started firing. After a loooooooong time when my archers ran out of ammo, the town was defeded by just 50 men out of 600. All the time the AI sit in the town, doing nothing. Btw, hit units changed formation to loose formation, when hit again, they moved back to close formation. Thats all movement or action happening in the town.
    2) counter attack: during another siege the AI started a counter attack, opened the gates and attacked my rams. On another ocasion the AI charged my units with cavalry (very nice). So this seems to work, but like 90% of the time the AI stays in the town. Even when the odds are in favor of the AI and it would realy crush me if the AI just started a counter attack.

    I hope you can do anything about this.

  8. #128

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Well another battlereport Oo (if this bother you, just let me know)

    Openfield battle (plan/forest). I deployed about 800men (hre), my enemy deployed 1000 men (poland). (me attacker)
    Me: 3x NE Bodyguard, 2x mailed knights, 5x light cavalry, 5x peasant archers, 2x spear militia, 2x town militia (out of this were reinforcements 2x godyguard, 4x archers, 2x town militia)
    Poland: 1x EE Bodyguard, 6x crusader, 3x crusader sergeant, 6x pilgrim, 3x avr(whatever) archers

    At first the AI moved towards my deployed units, but as soon as my reinforcements arrived at the map, the AI started to "bounce" around, couldnt choose where to attack. This way I could unite my forces, the AI stoped (prepared to defense). I attacked. Archers in the center with infantry, light cavalry on the right wing, generals with mailed knights on the left wing, tried to cross a forest to get behind the AI... bad move, as the AI had there all cavalry units hiden. I had to withdraw... the AI started an infantry assault on my centre. I moved my infantry in front of the archers and hoped they could hold the line for a while. AI crusaders charged from the forest at my lines, I countered them with my light cavalry, as the heavy cavalry was still in disorder. A fierce battle raged for a while. I lost all infantry, both mailed kngiths and 3 light cavalry units were beaten to 5 men and I had to move them back. At this point, the AI lined all infantry in front of my archers, its own archers behind and an archer duel started (I still had 2 more units of archers and nothing left)... if the ai had charged, I would loose. Nothing happened, as the archers exchanged volleys, I moved the remnants of my cavalry to the back of the AI, charged the archers, forced them to flee, the crusader sergeants got paniced too and I could destroy them easily... it was a crushing vicotry, because I could completely destroy 6 full units with no opposition...

    Castle siege: poland attacker (2x lituanian crossbowmen, 1x spear militia), me hre and 2 crossbow peasants defending. As his first unit reached the wall with a ladder, I moved my crossbow unit to a diagonaly opposity wall... waited, and started fire. The AI havent moved from the wall, see screenshot 1 (my crossbowmen are in the red square, firing at the polish troops in the front, who dont move at all, dont even fire back)
    Later poland broke through the gate and moved its spearmen inside... again the AI havent moved and took heavy casualties.... see screenshot 2.


    As the unit got decimated a bit (down to 40 men), they finaly charged my crossbowmen (firing from the center square). THe AIs crossbowmen that can be seen on the screenshot, moved a bit forward, and stoped.

    I lost my unit, the Ai spearmen entered the square (timer began). I moved my other crossbowmen unit and started firing, the Ai havent moved... forgot to make a screenshot, so just a small picture (red is the center square, orange are AI spearmen, blue are my crossbowmen, blue arrow is the line of fire, grey are building)... AI lost all spearmen. Now I had to deal with the crossbowmen...



    The AI crossbowmen got stuck in the street (leading from gate to center square)... I heared like 3x per second "move on, attack, start marching)... it was annoying to hear that, but nothing happened. I moved my crossbowmen near the gate, started firing at the AI back diagonaly (see screenshot).



    At 20 units the AI had not enough men left to keep a broad line, reformed to 2 short lines, at this time the AI turned around and started firing back. At 15 men left, they just made (again) one wide line, and got stuck, nothing happened. At this point I got sick of that and attacked in melee. Now since the lituania crossbowmen have longswords and peasants just khnives, I lost, even though I had 50 men and ai just 10, whatever

    I gues the pathfinding in narrov "corridors" is buggy, I noticed that with my own troops. A unit in wide formation wont enter a settlement street, except you command them to move to the end of it wheren they have room to keep their formation. When a unit keeps position in such a street and you try to rearrange the facing/formation, it wont work. I gues thats a vanilla problem, do you see any chance in improving this?
    Last edited by dm04; July 16, 2007 at 06:30 PM. Reason: removed a bad link

  9. #129

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    i got the ultimate ai 1.5 but the little movies dont work anymore...
    any idea how to get them back on?

  10. #130

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    I think you either need to copy the movie files into the mod directory or do that io command, i would tell you if i was near a computer with m2tw, but yeh i am at work

    Is anyone getting any choppy play in siege battles or open field that they wouldn't with the standard ai running? I find when they try to reform those formations outside the front of the castle or before attacking it can get choppy.

    Also i found they take a while to setup their formation because of how spread out they are. Apart from that i think its more enjoyable playing with this ai.
    Last edited by andymate; July 18, 2007 at 08:06 PM.

  11. #131

    Default A problem with UAI?

    I have noticed that since my time playing UAI, that the gates and towers when in a battle are not captured. So even if my men have ran through it, should an enemy be near, the towers still fire upon my men. Why? Can this be sorted, because I'm sure it wasn't that way in the original game.

  12. #132
    notger's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    There is a line in the cfg-file that says
    event_movies = 0. (Or something the like.)

    Change it to 1 and the movies should show again.

  13. #133

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    I notice that this is the only Battle Ai not to include a descr_formations.txt file. Any particular reason ?

    To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.
    Paul Ehrlich

  14. #134

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    The AI's archers still run way ahead of the rest of their army to fire. This makes them a terribly easy target for cavalry. Then, they wait too long before retreating to the safety of their melee troops.

  15. #135
    GrandViZ's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Well, IMO they run far less ahead than with vanilla, but the distance can be increased even further.

    But I agree, they should not run in front of the other units, therefore in nearly all my new formations archers were placed far behind the main infantry line. In vanilla they are not.

    Skirmish behavior of ranged infantry units hurts them more than it actually helps, as they have no chance to escape a cavalry chase. So by running, they lose formation, turn their backs and are slaughtered in no time. But if you make them stand and fight, they can inflict some casualties and bind the enemy forces for some time.

    This is totally different for ranged cavalry, as they have the means to escape and harass.

    Another problem that occurs with ranged infantry is the back-and-forth movement, where they bounce between the minimum shooting distance and the skirmish distance. Disabling useless skirmish behavior in combination with a decent shooting distance solves this problem, and gives them far more effective shooting time. A ranged unit permanently running is worthless!
    Last edited by GrandViZ; August 17, 2007 at 03:55 AM.
    Creator of the Ultimate AI
    Co-Author of Broken Crescent

    Under the Patronage of Trajan

  16. #136

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    So what line of what file controls the distance at which they will run forward to engage an enemy? I'd like to test it.


    And yes, it is a little better than in vanilla. Sometimes adjecent spear units will offer some cover.

    On an unrelated note, I've been trying to find a way to reduce the size of general's bodygaurd (in the campaign game). In the early game generals are the only cavalry a player uses. Let's give other early cavalry some battle time by reducing the impact generals cavalry has on a battle.

  17. #137

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Interesting thread GrandViz. Nice to see you've adopted the critical changes to skirmisher units. This is something that's plagued all TW games to date and despite the fact it's still present in Med II, at least we can now fix it. The worst culprits for the 'see-sawing' motion were javelin and short-ranged hand-gunners.

    In config_ai_battle I notice you've made changes to a lot of the variables and what I'm intrigued about is just how you figured out that they do? If it was through trial and error, then this must have taken you eons to assess! Could you share your knowledge? In particular, here are a few questions and comments I had:

    1. The melee manager. You've increased the max engage distances for units in open and settlements. What does this do to AI behaviour?

    2. Although you increased the default retreat distance, you reduced the retreat counters for the difficulty levels. What does this do to AI behaviour?

    3. Why did you reduce the values for cav outflanking phalanx and stakes. Isn't this counterintuitive?

    4. You reduced the 'unit group merge and speed tolerance' variables. What effect does this have in the game? For instance, does it help maintain unit cohesion when an AI army contains slower moving phalanx troops? If not what does this do?

    5. In the attack battlegroup, you toggled formed percentages and shootout variables. What does this do to AI behaviour?

    6. In the battle-analyser, which was added with 1.2, there's a variable called: friendly-ranged-strength-multiplier. I think CA got this the wrong way round. From my tests, this should be less than 1, not greater than 1, since it is a 'friendly strength' muliplier for the AI perceiving us as being overwhelmingly powerful. If it's higher then 1, the AI believes the human's army is more powerful when the AI has got more missile troops. The converse is it thinks it is more powerful when it's got less missile troops. I.e. it'll try to maintain a missile duel when in reality it should be engaging ASAP. This is also a change Lusted decided to make...

    7. The distance required to be reached though the defensive line to be considered to have broken through you increased to 75. What effects does this have on AI behaviour?

    regards.
    Last edited by DrJambo; August 27, 2007 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Typos

  18. #138
    GrandViZ's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Hi DrJambo,

    first of all some of the changes in the UBAI 1.1 are outdated, and I am already testing different settings, but anyway I will try to answer some of your questions.

    1. Increasing the maximum engage distances, without changing the order of the different settings, should help to lower AI passiveness which happens sometimes to certain units.

    2. I think this is a setting, that only applies to the human player. The engine uses the counters to check, if a players unit will rout or not. By decreasing the counters you increase the difficulty, because you will run out of counters faster.

    3. These settings are outdated. I currently use

    <outflank-analyser>
    <unit-priority>
    <cavalry-vs-phalanx>50</cavalry-vs-phalanx>
    <vs-routers>0.25</vs-routers>
    <behind-stakes>25.0</behind-stakes>
    </unit-priority>
    </outflank-analyser>

    4. I was experimenting with those, because I wanted the AI units to act more independantly. But I realized that it hurts formation cohesion too much.

    So I went back to more conservative settings:

    <unit-group-merge-dist>100.0</unit-group-merge-dist>
    <unit-group-speed-tolerance>0.5</unit-group-speed-tolerance>
    <unit-group-strength-tolerance>200</unit-group-strength-tolerance>


    5. These are again outdated values. The original intention was to reduce the idle time, ranged units seem to have before they shoot at a target. But as it also affected unit cohesion, I increased the lower bound for the formed percentage to 25.

    6. This is also outdated. As this is a multiplier for the friendly ranged force, a value k between 0 and 1 means, that the enemy force must be 1/k times bigger to be considered more powerful.

    This is the current setting I use.

    <friendly-ranged-strength-multiplier>0.5</friendly-ranged-strength-multiplier>

    So if the enemy ranged force is 2 (= 1 / 0.5) times bigger than your own ranged force, it is considered to be overwhelmingly powerful.

    7. The value has been increased, so the AI does not give up its formation too early. However I decreased it from 75 to 50 in the current version.

    I have attached the recent version of the important files to this post.

    Best Regards
    GrandViZ
    Creator of the Ultimate AI
    Co-Author of Broken Crescent

    Under the Patronage of Trajan

  19. #139

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Thanks for the explanations. (Incidentally I corrected a typo under point 6 of my previous most. It should have stated lower than 1, not 0, as you've correctly noted!)

    From the modding you've been trying with this file, I wonder if you've had any joys solving a couple of well-known AI idiocies:

    1. AI infantry missile units running too far ahead of the main army to engage in a missile shootout. This leaves them extremely vulnerable to quick cav rushes.
    2. The AI leaving its 'slower' moving troops behind, e.g. voulgier and pikes. Is there a way to make the AI keep its unit cohesion better as it approaches?

    Also, I notice you decreased the unit spread value for units on walls from 1 to 0.5. Meanwhile, others have increased this value to 3. What role does this value have?
    Last edited by DrJambo; August 27, 2007 at 10:41 AM.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Ultimate Battle AI 1.1 *UPDATE*

    Could retreat counter be some kind of minimum count for the AI units routing?

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