Ultimate Battle AI 1.2 *UPDATE*

[Konstantin Alexander]

I think it would be good, if you have a look at the pathfinding again.

Case 1

Indicated with the black square are the positions i ordered two units to take. When they stopped to walk (the black arrow on their unit card disappeared) they ran in the directions indicated by the red arrows, without an order. They repeated that trick several times, when i got angry at them and insisted on my order.

Attachment 3778

Case 2

Taking the walls of Leon....well sorta...

Attachment 3779

In the end they all found their way into the siege tower, but it took ages.

[GrandViZ]

Case 1

Please repeat the same test with vanilla and report back, if the issue occurs as well.

Case 2

Well, if they all find their way in the end, I see no problem. However I will see if the spreadout effect can be reduced, without hurting other features (it is a tradeoff thing).

[notger]

Actually, I like the new set-up. I find myself spacing my armies wide-out, too. It makes battles easier controllable.

I came across one thing, though: The AI never protects its artillery in a field battles. I can ride by the enemy bodyguard and overrun the artillery, which very often is positioned at the flanks. You might have a look at that.

@Konstantin: "Komm zur Armee, haben sie gesagt." Thanks, that saved my morning!

[Konstantin Alexander]

Case 1
I repeated my moves with a unmodded vanilla 1.2 version, the same units (as they are javelinmen i have to mention, that they weren´t skirmishing in the other case as well) taking the same route (red) and giving the same orders. (I let them stop when they were at the place where they stand on the screenshot.) They obeyed their orders, as little pixel men, whose life is under my control, ought to do.

Attachment 3790

Case 2
Well, in case you would have to make a trade-off with more important things let them wander around a bit. I think noone will collect the fines for loitering during a siege.
Just wanted to show it, as it kind of surprised me.

The wide spread enemy formations are, at least from my point of view, a excellent feature. Not only did i regularly divide my army into three or for mixed detachements before, now the enemy learned the trick as well. And if you try to outfox the AI by keeping a close packed formation (doesn´t matter if it is at the flanks or the centre) then it tends to outmaneuvre you, either by outflanking and surrounding you or by occupying dominating positions on hills or in forests.

Great job.

@Notger

Maybe i put too much heart into my pixel soldiers.

[Point Blank]

I agree with Konstantin. The more dispersed formations are definitely more challenging. The enemy can't just be surrounded and destroyed as one group nearly as easily. Siege AI looking good so far. Great job!

[GrandViZ]

Thank you Konstantin for the explanation. I'll investigate the issue and see if I can fix it. Great, that you like the spread out formations!

@Konstantin: "Komm zur Armee, haben sie gesagt." Thanks, that saved my morning!

Mine as well!

[Konstantin Alexander]

Just a short remark on pike units.

I just tested how to get back those arrow trail effects from vanilla (yes, they were horrible, but at least you saw, which units your men fired at) and made a custom battle with a few units of longbowmen against highland pikemen. I had no melee units whatsoever.

Would it be possible to let the AI drop the spear phalanx formation, when there is no enemy melee unit in the vicinity, so that those poor little Scots could at least try to reach my lines running, before they are all dead?


Btw, except more comics from the frontlines in the future. Perhaps some english ones as well, but i fear that the humor would get lost in the translation.

[GrandViZ]

Would it be possible to let the AI drop the spear phalanx formation, when there is no enemy melee unit in the vicinity, so that those poor little Scots could at least try to reach my lines running, before they are all dead?

You know the answer already, don't you?

It's hardcoded.

[Froggie5]

some more feedback:

Fighting the Danes I have noticed several times that the AI uses its missile troops as infantry and throws them right into the fray without firing a shot. This is especially noticeable on bridge battles (happened three times), but also in the open field.

In one open field battle I also witnessed the ai commit its units piecemeal - one or two units at a time - rather than throw everything at me at once.

[Konstantin Alexander]

@ Froggie5

I cannot speak for the vizier, but i suppose it would be helpful, if you could be more specific. Factions, army composition, terrain, leaders, all that stuff.

You know the answer already, don't you?

It's hardcoded.

I feared as much. Just give me a minute.

&*##!§/ CA!
I´m gonna &*;@ %$!ß and *>*~&@, then °@*#|(&+ and your pets!

Anyways:


News from the frontlines
Thursday edition 5.7.07
2 Bucks


Scenario: Im besieging a city (Leon...again. Something is awful wrong with this town.) a relieving force attacks and i join battle with the garrison as well. The hostile king is in the garrison, The main attacker (the army that starts the battle) is the relieving force. It is chased from the map, the reinforcements are already on the field (bodyguard, armoured sergeants, feudal knights) and come at my position at a mountain side. For some reason i got a ribault in the valley and manage to kill the king with a lucky shot. (You can still see his feet) I gave them up for dead...but...

Well this situation remained for about 40-60 seconds, after which they attacked my other position at the mountain and then remembered they forgot to deactivate the gas oven at home:

Attachment 3809

The ribault crew is having a group therapy after one of them commited suicide one month later. Being ignored is quite depressing.

Remember you can enlarge the pic.

[DrBeast]

&*##!§/ CA!
I´m gonna &*;@ %$!ß and *>*~&@, then °@*#|(&+ and your pets!

Hey now, leave their pets out of this, lest you invoke the wrath of the Beast! But I completely agree with everything else, I couldn't have worded it better myself!

[GrandViZ]

some more feedback:

Fighting the Danes I have noticed several times that the AI uses its missile troops as infantry and throws them right into the fray without firing a shot. This is especially noticeable on bridge battles (happened three times), but also in the open field.

In one open field battle I also witnessed the ai commit its units piecemeal - one or two units at a time - rather than throw everything at me at once.

I haven't dealt with bridge battles yet, so the observed behavior is vanilla!

Generally, AI will use missile units like melee (hardcoded), if it lacks other melee infantry for the strategy it has chosen.

In regard to open field battles. It may happen occasionally, that AI units attack in this way, but it is not the rule and it highly depends on the army composition. But, what you have to understand is, that the moddable AI files do not control single units and their behavior. There is no way to influence a single units behavior directly!

[dm04]

Thanks that you pointed me tho this mod, now the AI is finaly doing something and I realy have to "work" to win (already lost 2 battles )

Some problems:

1) AI have siege equipment: in this case, the AI ignores the players (mine) superior numbers of archers. In most battles (90%) the AI just started firing at my walls (or my units), while my longbowmen were firing back... I could wipe out half of the AIs army and then just charged the rest. IF the AI have ballista, its 100% that the AI dont move. Once I fired at the ballista, killed the crew making the ballistas useless and then the AI charged.

2) Ranged Units (not siege equipment)
a. During a fight I noticed the following: as an infantry unit finaly reached the range of my peasant archers, they were already so close, that, as they charged, they reached the archers before they even could fire one arrow. This is not very realistic, making the archers very useless.
b. I checked the ...unit.txt to look at the ranged unit stats and noticed, that crossbows have greater range then bows, this is also weird.

edit: just had a battle, where the AI havent moved all the time and got wiped by my archers. (open field, I were the attacker)

[ME2_junky]

I have done some testing with the A.I. defending...siege battles are much better now. So much so that I have been dealt a stiniging defeat...something which almost never happens.
With vanilla battles are such a push over that I under-estimate the A.I. to such a level, that I feel confident attacking with a much smaller force and almost always win.

So today I did the same with UBAI and guess what...I lost...oddly enough I am quite happy.

The A.I. was defending a citedal, set afire a ram and two siege towers. Stalled me on the first walls quite a bit, had a second line on secondary walls already ready for me. Second line took another two rams & broke my army.
I played the Germans with some 1200 men, A.I. had England with 1600...but his units were a bit weaker.
A tough battle, I really enjoyed it.

This looks like another Ultimate Success

Great work man.


P.S.

Despite modifying some wall/engines/unit values myself...I find it surprising just how similar the values are when I compare...the major difference being, instead of upping gate strength alot, I just decreased ram damage. I also allowed flaming arrows 1 point of damage so lots of archers, in combined effort, could destroy a siege engine without putting it on fire.

[GrandViZ]

1) AI have siege equipment: in this case, the AI ignores the players (mine) superior numbers of archers.

This one is sadly hardcoded. There is nothing we can do about.

2) Ranged Units (not siege equipment)
During a fight I noticed the following: as an infantry unit finaly reached the range of my peasant archers, they were already so close, that, as they charged, they reached the archers before they even could fire one arrow.

The ranges of archers have been balanced by Point Blank (Real Combat Mod), and peasant archers have a relative low range. You might ask him about the reasons behind.

And in regard to crossbows, they have a superior range in reality as well.

Just had a battle, where the AI havent moved all the time and got wiped by my archers.

Can you please describe the setup of armies, and their composition.

I also allowed flaming arrows 1 point of damage so lots of archers, in combined effort, could destroy a siege engine without putting it on fire.

Sounds like an interesting idea.

[dm04]

Can you please describe the setup of armies, and their composition.

Battle 1
AI: 2x spear militia, 1x some sort of crossbowmen (scotland)
Me: 3x town militia, 3x longbowmen
all units with zero upgrades, unexperienced
the ai moved the crossbowmen towards my archers, died, then happened nothing and I wiped the spearmen, I attacked

Battle 2
AI: 2x spear militia, 1x mailed knights (scotland)
Me: 3x longbowmen, 3x peasant archers, 3x spear mililtia, 3x town militia (archers some exp, no upgrades)
AI attacker, were standing in open field all the time and I had to move closer. WIth all the unit changes from RealCOmbat, the mailed knights would realy destroyed the archers, but the AI havent moved at all. At some point, the archers killed all enemy units.

[Froggie5]

Generally, AI will use missile units like melee (hardcoded), if it lacks other melee infantry for the strategy it has chosen.

In regard to open field battles. It may happen occasionally, that AI units attack in this way, but it is not the rule and it highly depends on the army composition. But, what you have to understand is, that the moddable AI files do not control single units and their behavior. There is no way to influence a single units behavior directly!

Thank you for the reply. As to the former, I think this was probably more of an army composition issue than a battlefield ai one - in both cases the AI fielded armies that were almost all archers. Still, this is a bit disturbing. What are the implications for Eastern armies and the Mongols - will they choose to send their foot and horse archers immediately into melee? I suppose they will just never choose the same strategy as the Danes chose these two instances. I will keep an eye on this and report back if I see it again.

In regard to the latter, I understand the limitations of modding the ai, I was just under the impression that one could influence they ways in which the ai maneuvers and, most importantly, commits its forces. I suppose I was mistaken on the second of these.

Anyway, well done so far, I am enjoying the changes. Thanks for all you work.

[dm04]

Thats why I said "just had", regularly the AI realy works perfect and thats great. But in like 1 out of 5 battles the AI remains passive (when I have such a battle again, I will try to collect more data).

Too bad there is nothing that can be done with the siege equipment, I hope CA will "unhardcode" it with the addon...

[dm04]

Ok here we go




Scotland: 4x gallowglas warrior, 3x town militia, 3x spear militia, 1x ballista, 1x mailed knights, 1x hobillars

My forces are up on the hill, the scotish army at the bottom.



Slowly the scotish army moves towards my position, taking heavy casualties. At some point (as you can see in the next screenshot) the AI charges the hill, but my archers are almost out of ammo, so it took them a while (the ballista was doing weird stuff... moved forward, turned back, turned forward all the time)



Like 1 minute later, the scotish army turns around and moves back the hill, standing still again. My archers fire their last arrows, the reinforcements arrive and I send my mailed knights down the hill, to take out the remnants of the scotish army. The result you can see here....

[GrandViZ]

Well, you field a more than 2 times bigger army than the AI and complain, that you win easily on a defensive position. There is no way, that the AI will give you a decent fight under these circumstances.