Lusted: Your take on pikemen?

**Uandwhosearmy** · June 15, 2007, 09:05 AM

Ok so I just reached the gunpowder event with Sicily and am looking forward to changing my army composition to a pike/arquebusier type setup instead of my italian spear militias/norman knights/crossbowmen. My question is: Is it worth it?

Do pikemen and halberdiers work as they are supposed to or is the issue with pikemen drawing their swords in melee still a big issue and enough of an argument to stick with spear units? I've played some custom battles with pikemen and found that they are really hard to use unless standing absolutely still and defending a position but I'm not sure I'm using them correctly in offense.

I would love to hear what you have to say about this.

**Garnier** · June 15, 2007, 09:14 AM

Personally I never use pikemen anymore, because they seem worse than spearmen against cavalry, and spearmen are not as bad against infantry either.

**Lusted** · June 15, 2007, 10:01 AM

The way to use pikemen.

Defensively - standing still with spearwall on and possibly guard mode on as well.

Offensively - works best with spearwall on and guard mode off.

Pikemen work best defensively as they have the spearwall formation which is devestating against cav when the pikemen are braced.

**Uandwhosearmy** · June 15, 2007, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Lusted

The way to use pikemen.

Defensively - standing still with spearwall on and possibly guard mode on as well.

Offensively - works best with spearwall on and guard mode off.

Pikemen work best defensively as they have the spearwall formation which is devestating against cav when the pikemen are braced.

Thanks for your reply Lusted. I'll try some custom battles to further test the guard mode thingy in offense. You didn't address my other question though, whether changing army composition is worth it? Has someone actually been able to show that pikemen are a better line infantry unit than the spear militias of Italy? Because using them in the game I sustain terrible losses to my upgraded pike militias when facing an enemy headed by spearmen.

**~~Allu X~~** · June 15, 2007, 10:29 AM

I use pikemen for defense with guard mode on. Normally placing them infront of my main infantry so when the enemy breach the spearwall, they face another wall of steel for example,

C C M M C = Cavalry
P P P P M = Missile
I I I I I I = Infantry
P = Pikemen
G G = Generals Bodyguard

lol formations mucked up - stupid html aligning :

**Lusted** · June 15, 2007, 10:44 AM

Well Pikemen are the number 1 best unit in the game for beating the absolute crap out of cav, so in that respect yes they are better than spear militia. Plus pike militia cost 260 florins and can have their armour upgraded 3 times. with full armour upgrades and usd correctly they can beat infantry as well.

Oh and i've just been donig some testing and attacking with spearwall on and guard mode off works best, and as soon as your pikes switch to swords pause and quickly turn spearwall off and then back on and they'll use pikes again.

**Uandwhosearmy** · June 15, 2007, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the tip on switching spearwall on and off! Even though it's a bit too much micromanagement in a furious battle for my taste I guess it would make a difference.

When doing some playtesting of my own I found that basic i.e. with no upgrades, Italian spear militias are far superior to a fully armor upgraded unit of pikemen. I ran 5 tests with one unit of pikemen defending (human) and faced a single unit of spear militia (CPU - Milan). They attacked my solid spear wall, six rows deep and came out on top every time, losing around 10-17 men compared to my losses which went up to 100 men. I guess testing with one vs one is hardly the same as a full scale battle scenario, but I was a bit surprised as to how easily they were beaten. Another thing I noted was that the captain of my unit died as a result of the initial charge 3 times out of 5...

**Lusted** · June 15, 2007, 11:00 AM

Well if you deploy your pikemen too deep the other unit will just wrap round your flanks and then pikemen are screwed. Keep your pikemen at the same length at the spearmen and the fight will be more closer.

**Uandwhosearmy** · June 16, 2007, 04:57 AM

I tried that as well but still lost the melee by a fair amount.

I also tried fighting against heavy cavalry and found that while the knights did take heavy losses on the initial charge head on into the spearwall, the pikemen then just stands there while the horsemen tries to penetrate the formation. They didn't succeed and then regrouped for a 2nd charge. But shouldn't the pikemen poke and jab at them with their pikes more?

Oh well, I'm still learning how to use them correctly and will try them for a while in the campaign.

By the way, do you use the pikemen fix at all where the secondary weapon is removed? If so, why/why not?

**Lusted** · June 16, 2007, 05:42 AM

No i don't use it as it horrendously overpowers pikes and makes them use pikes even when flanked or charged from the rear.

**Uandwhosearmy** · June 16, 2007, 06:59 AM

I thought so. Thanks for your informative replies!

**Ecthelion** · June 20, 2007, 12:44 AM

Pikemen sort of work when you fight the AI, sort of.

They're an absolute joke when fighting a human player.

**gunnigolfer** · June 20, 2007, 02:39 PM

Aventuros kick ass in offense. I once managed to kill over 600 men in a city plaza with 150 aventuros, losing only about 10!!! That was with guard mode off and spearwall on.