Sicily - Balance issues

[AaronC]

Hi there. Love the mod, been playing the various incarnations from the outset and do find it greatly improves the game.

I tried a game as Sicily and really was disturbed by some of the balance issues for this faction. Italian Militia and Italian Spear Militia are vastly superior to the other varieties of these forces and it seem to throw the balance between castes and town right off.
For example;
It costs 1600 to build a musterhall in a castle to produce peasants, it costs 600 to build a militia house for the vastly superior Italian militia.
It cost 5400 to upgrade to the third level town, it cost 8600 for the third level castle
The second level militia house can produce Italian Spear militia, that are not only alot better than sergeant spearmen(in fact they are only 1 def point worse than armoured sergeant spearmen) but benefit from free upkeep.
The third level range produces crossbowmen with the exact same combat stats as those produced in the third level militia house.

I realise that the Italian militia cost alot more to produce but factoring in alot of free upkeep it probably comes out in the militias favour in the end.

Generally when I play I dont change many of the castle/town designations. I found playing sicily, and I can only imagine it is similar for Milan and Venice, that I was changing most ofl my castles to towns as soon as possible.

Aside from the muslim archers and cavalry I think it really is a shame that castles for these factions only become useful/different at levels 4+

Thanks again for the great mod.

[Lusted]

Yes yes i know the cost of castle/city military buildings is off in 2.3, it's being changed for 3.0, it's already been discussed to death.

[Klink]

Mind you...I just discovered how the merchant vaults give the Italians one or two extra merchants, depending on level. That is overpowered, IMO.

[Garnier]

Perhaps since Italy is simply so rich, all their unit's cost should go up as well? Then they would use more mercenaries like in real life (italian warfare was more mercenary-oriented), and they could still be richer than anyone else but not have bigger armies.

[AaronC]

Sorry, I didnt realise that the building costs were out/talked to death etc etc. In my naivete I thought it was part of the "balancing".
My point really was how the italian militia make the lower echelon castle foot troops obsolete and a bit boring.

[Lusted]

My point really was how the italian militia make the lower echelon castle foot troops obsolete and a bit boring.

Well yes the Italian factions are very milita orientated factions having the best militia in the game, so they will generally use more cities than other factions.

[Klink]

I think Garnier is onto something there. As I see it, Milan and Venice are overpowered, since they get both more productive cities with merchant banks and better militias too. I've modded the merchant banks to be more expensive, about 10,000 and 20,000 for tier 1 and 2, to balance that extra merchant out.

[Klink]

Another option might be to reduce pool regeneration for Italian militia, to have them depend more on mercs.

[Turbo]

There is no balance issues here. The Italian factions enjoy an advantage early on with good militia and militia spearmen but these units quickly become obsolete as the game moves on. It is easy to defeat Italian militia for example with Byzantine infantry or Janissary infantry.

So, if you look at the Italian factions overall, they start out strong but fizzle later in the game. Seems balanced to me.

[Garnier]

I disagree. The italian militias with some armour upgrades, are better than armored sergeants, and cheaper.

Also their genoese crossbows are superb, for the price. These never get outclassed. I'm talking about AI vs AI though. Of course the player will demolish these units in battle like all others, but they keep coming because they are cheap. And against the AI, they do really well.

[Klink]

It does beg the question how far balance should be pursued. Not all factions are created equal, and it seems fair to me that Scotland is a harder hand to play than England. But, the Italian factions are just too easy to play for me, I never really try them.

[Sonny WiFiHr]

Balancing of cav is issue here.If cav is stronger italian factions become weaker and other factions (Franec,HRE,Egypt etc.) stronger. But in the hands of human that stronger cav become ultimate weapon. So what to do? I think everything should be changed .First more money on map . Upkeep ratio spear 200 - missle 250 - h cav 800 -l cav 400 - h missle 300 - missle cav 500 - sword 300. Put back h cav charge (they should wipe out any weak spears like town militia).And cav should be able to put only one charge with lancers if they have sec weapon sword.Sec charge should be weaker. Making charge harder to do (only best trained units should charge good) and def should go up more drasticly with exp. for spears (best trained spear should resist any charge).Give A.I. bonus with exp. when they build troops(1st lv. city/casttle walls give A.I. no exp bonus ,2nd 1 exp, 3rd 2 exp etc. Or making two separate skripts for human player and A.I..Player should have bigger upkeep for his units AI cheaper

this is just idea

[Lusted]

See i think the Italian Cities unbalance in terms of their great city troops and good castle troops is compensated by their position on the map and the fact they will likely beat war all the time.