Omni-Genesis

[David Deas]

If god is creator of all and god is omniscient, he must know as he contemplates creating a universe what his creation will be like in the future, being omniscient. If he creates a universe that in 13 billion years has a John Smith, he will know if Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned. He will know all Smith's acts to the smallest and most insignificant. And he must as he realizes what his creation entails make a choice. "Do I create this
universe that has an evil Smith of a good Smith?".

In fact, god must make a decision about every act Smith does, to personally allow that act or disallow that act.

Nothing Smith will do will not have been forseen, contemplated and allowed or disallowed by god. Smith does nothing at all, all acts are gods doing, personally, and with full knowledge of the consequenses. God then, decides all, for all sentient beings to the finest acts, all they think, their most fleeting inclinations because God makes it all.

God makes all to the smallest quark in the smallest Planck unit of time in the smallest Planck unit of space all through what is collectively the physical collective of our lives and acts. All decided long before anybody is born.

Thus, there is no free will for any sentient creatures in a world made ex nihilo by an omniscient god.

Free will is thus impossible in the strongest possible manner, Omnigenesis, omni- all, genesis, creation, omnigenesis, creation of all. Omnigenesis rules out all free will.

God creates all to the last quark with full knowledge of everything he creates.

If moral and natural evil exists, god is directly, and personally, and knowingly responsible for every bit of that evil. There is no reason when there is no free will, for God to not make all men good and saved.

All evil is god's doing. God therefore cannot be good as claimed, but is evil. Omnigenesis and a good god are incompatible, you have one or the
other, not both. A god that is omniscient, creates all and is good cannot exist. These claims are made in Bible and Quran. The bible and islamic gods cannot exist.

Omni-Genesis is the thinking that since God allegedly created every detail of the Universe, the Universe is a reflection of its creator as a deterministic place of evil. This thinking says that if God created everything down to the last detail, then free will cannot exist.


(*) Since we're talking about the Biblical God here, I see a tremendous issue with the assumption that God was omniscient in the first place. If God was omniscient, then he would not have made the mistakes and miscalculations that he admitted to, and neither would he have had to run experiments on humanity as he commonly did in the Bible. As much as God boasted to be all knowing, I suspect its clear from his actions that he was obviously embellishing the truth. Or flat out lying, to be more honest.

(*) I also take further issue with the idea that God created the Universe. Where the heck exactly is that verse located in the Bible?

[Zenith Darksea]

I'm just running off to a tutorial now (I'll be back later though), so I'll just quickly answer one of your questions.

I also take further issue with the idea that God created the Universe. Where the heck exactly is that verse located in the Bible?

Try Genesis 1:1, the very first verse of the Bible.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It may not use exactly the same wording as you do, but the meaning's still there.

[David Deas]

By no ancient account are the Heavens a reference to the Universe. By modern account, the Heavens are where souls ascend to. It is difficult to believe the Universe would be what is being referred to there knowing that ancient cultures had no idea of such a concept.

[Sadreddine]

By no ancient account are the Heavens a reference to the Universe. By modern account, the Heavens are where souls ascend to. It is difficult to believe the Universe would be what is being referred to there knowing that ancient cultures had no idea of such a concept.

Then this verse will clarify things:

"Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds" (Qur'an, 1:2)

That's the Qur'an, though, not the Bible. However it is clear that, as a theological concept, "Heavens and Earth" symbolize the whole of Creation.

[Serious Spamurai]

Then this verse will clarify things:

"Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds" (Qur'an, 1:2)

That's the Qur'an, though, not the Bible. However it is clear that, as a theological concept, "Heavens and Earth" symbolize the whole of Creation.

In mine (english translation) it says:

"Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Universe" (Al Qur'aan, 1:2)

Which most certainly clarifies things.

[David Deas]

In mine (english translation) it says:

"Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Universe" (Al Qur'aan, 1:2)

Which most certainly clarifies things.

His is a lot more accurate than yours. That shouldn't read the word "Universe" rather than worlds.


(*) Nonetheless, I don't recognize the Koran. I don't even bother to spell it right. It's just a rip off. And I see no reason why anyone should recognize it, period, over far more original accounts.

(*) Clarification edits above.

[Zenith Darksea]

By no ancient account are the Heavens a reference to the Universe.

On the contrary, since the ancients did not have the scientific knowledge of the universe that we do, they took the term 'heavens' to mean everything beyond the Earth - ie. the universe. That's certainly the case in Classical Greek, and unless you have evidence to the contrary, I suspect it is the case in Hebrew as well. What is the foundation for your heated denial?

Remember that the modern, Western Christian 'Heaven' is not what is meant by the ancient Hebrew term 'heavens'.

[David Deas]

On the contrary, since the ancients did not have the scientific knowledge of the universe that we do, they took the term 'heavens' to mean everything beyond the Earth - ie. the universe. That's certainly the case in Classical Greek, and unless you have evidence to the contrary, I suspect it is the case in Hebrew as well. What is the foundation for your heated denial?

Even if that were true, I wouldn't be talking about the Greek era. I would be talking about the dates relevant in the authorship of Genesis. The Greeks were the people who reinterpreted the Tanakh a thousand years later in ways that flew in the face of the Yahwist tradition. Remember? So, if the purpose of communication is to understand the author, "the Heavens" spoke of in Genesis certainly do not refer to the entire Universe.

Remember that the modern, Western Christian 'Heaven' is not what is meant by the ancient Hebrew term 'heavens'.

Thats a late edit.

Do you realize your edit runs counter to the first part of your post? Modern Christians think of "Heavens" as the Universe, excluding Earth, and "Heaven" as the place people go after they die. The ancients thought of the "Heavens" depending on which one of them you were referring to.

[Ummon]

Maybe they should translate it Lord of the Multiverse?

[Zenith Darksea]

Do you realize your edit runs counter to the first part of your post?

No it doesn't.

So, if the purpose of communication is to understand the author, "the Heavens" spoke of in Genesis certainly do not refer to the entire Universe.

I'd really like to see you demonstrate this. I wasn't saying that the pagan Greeks had interpreted the Book of Genesis, merely using them as an example of an ancient people who saw the heavens as being what exists beyond the Earth. I think it is quite clear that 'the heavens' entails the space beyond the Earth, and I don't think that you have provided a solid reason for believing otherwise, or indeed any reason, apart from the fact that you would rather it didn't.

[David Deas]

I'd really like to see you demonstrate this.

You must think Genesis was authored yesterday.

It's always hilarious to see people try and read modern cosmology into the Bible. Or even to see people assume modern cosmology into the Bible without thinking, or confronting their own fundamental assumptions.

I wasn't saying that the pagan Greeks had interpreted the Book of Genesis, merely using them as an example of an ancient people who saw the heavens as being what exists beyond the Earth.

Except the ancient Greeks had nothing to do with the verse you're citing.

When I referred to ancient accounts, I'd assumed it was already clear that I could only be meaning ancient accounts which actually had something to do with the creation of Genesis. If we're trying to figure out what the word "Heavens" refers to in Genesis, I don't understand how we could *not* refer to Genesis' authors rather than to the opinion of a civilization occurring a thousand years later.


(*) Nonetheless, I'm still not certain what Greek works you're citing. As far as they might have been concerned, the Heavens referred to what we know now as the visible sky. It had boundaries; a center and a rim. The Heavens were the place that the most important figures ascended to for all on Earth to see and honor in the sky, typically in the form of some constellation. I mean, to the Greeks, the Heavens were a bronze dome that the constellations were fixed to. According to contemporary mythology, there was literally nothing beyond the visible sky. Or what their eyes could see.

I think it is quite clear that 'the heavens' entails the space beyond the Earth, and I don't think that you have provided a solid reason for believing otherwise, or indeed any reason, apart from the fact that you would rather it didn't.

Provided a solid reason? For what? The burden of proof doesn't rest on me. You're the one claiming that the meaning of "Heavens" in Genesis is the entire Universe. Otherwise, I have no reason to think that "Heavens" there doesn't refer to the seven levels of Heaven from the thinking of the time period Genesis would have likely been authored; which referred to, btw, what of the Solar System they could identify during those ancient times. Specifically speaking, the seven planets known at the time which were thought to represent sentience through their uniquely palpable motion across the sky. Not the entire damn Universe.

So if you think the authors of Genesis were referring to the entire Universe, which is something they had no realistic idea about, then please show me how the heck that could have possibly been. You're talking about a group of people who thought the flat Earth began and ended all within a narrow Middle Eastern area of the map.

[David Deas]

That's the Qur'an, though, not the Bible. However it is clear that, as a theological concept, "Heavens and Earth" symbolize the whole of Creation.

That doesn't make any sense as a rebuttal.

Unless "the whole of Creation" refers to the Universe that isn't mentioned anywhere, I'd obviously agree with your statement.

[Sadreddine]

That doesn't make any sense as a rebuttal.

Unless "the whole of Creation" refers to the Universe that isn't mentioned anywhere, I'd obviously agree with your statement.

Well there are lots of verses that identify God as the Sustainer of the Worlds/Universe, such as:

Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe." (Qur'an 2:131)

"Say: "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds" (Qur'an 6:71)

There are lots like this couple; God is frequently mentioned as the Sustainer of the Worlds/Universe. This few have also clear astronomical implications:

"[...]He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!" (Qur'an 7:54)

"For you (God) subjected the night and the day, the sun and the moon; the stars are in subjection to His Command. Verily in this are signs for people who are wise." (Qur'an 16:12)

"We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets." " (Qur'an 37:6)

"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, (and thus) the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion." (Qur'an 21:33)

"The sun and the moon (run their appointed courses) according to a (perfectly computed) mathematical design (in conformance with a prescribed regulation and order, see other verses)"(Qur'an 55:5)

"And the vault of heaven, He raised it high (with all celestial bodies perfectly placed in, without any pillars that you can see) (see verses 13:2, 79:27-28); and He established the Balance and Equilibrium (with harmonious arrangement of all the parts of this design, see other verses)" (Qur'an 55:7)

"It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies, see other verses) swim along, each in its rounded course." (Qur'an 21:33)

Advances in astronomy in the Islamic Golden Era were supported by verses like those, as scholars were encouraged to reflect upon creation and heavenly spheres. This is but a sample; there are more.

And about the "Lord of the Worlds" issue, early scholars such like Ibn Abbas considered that it was meant that many worlds like this we're living in, existed. Abbas didn't know what this meant, since there was no account commenting this, but accepted it as a matter of faith. It looks like he was right, after all.

Maybe they should translate it Lord of the Multiverse?

The Qur'an was a Revelation to VII century bedouin, illiterate Arabs. Words such as Multiverse or even Universe simply did not exist in Arabic. Today we can translate literal "Worlds" into "other planets/ heavenly bodies and stars", thus "Universe". The notion of a Multiverse is interesting; now that you mention it, there are some cryptical words repeated in the Qur'an that makes one wonder: "Only He knows the Un-seen and the Apparent" and "He has chosen you over the Worlds".

And God knows better.

As for the "problem of evil" mentioned in the OP, I will try a theological argument later on, if I'm in the mood to do it.

Nonetheless, I don't recognize the Koran. I don't even bother to spell it right. It's just a rip off. And I see no reason why anyone should recognize it, period, over far more original accounts.

I'm fine with that:

"It is not required of thee, to set them on the right path, but Allah sets on the right path whom He pleaseth. Whatever of good ye give benefits your own souls, and ye shall only do so seeking the "Face" of Allah. Whatever good ye give, shall be rendered back to you, and ye shall not Be dealt with unjustly." (Qur'an 2:272)

and again:

"As to those who reject to believe, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe." (Qur'an 2:6)