Incorruptible Saints

[VoodooTengo]

What do you guys think of incorruptible Saints?

They are saints, of either the eastern orthodox or roman catholic church, who when dead and not embalmened fail to decompose. They can remain in this state, as far as we know indefiniately. I have a website here with some pictures of them,the oldest one is from the 1300's, though granted shes looking a bit like the unmasked King from Kingdom of Heaven at this point.

[MasterAdnin]

I do not know if you guys know about the Battle of Karbala in which Imam Hussain (Alaihis-salam) gave his life courageously in order to keep Islam true. There was a young officer on the opposing side named Hurr (pbuh) who turned to Imam Hussain's (Alaihis-salaam) side after seeing who he truly was and how he acted.

During the Battle of Karbala, he was I believe the first to fight. He fought corageously but suffered a head wound which went on to kill him. In his dying breath, he called over Imam Hussain (Alaihis-salaam) and asked him if he had done his duty as a Muslim, to which Imam Hussain (Alaihis-salaam) said he did, and Imam Hussain (Alaihis-salaam) then placed a piece of cloth over Hurr's (pbuh) head to cover the wound. Hurr soon died after.

At one point they found in body in the sands of Karbala with his body still in PERFECT condition. A Saudi prince requested that he be given the cloth Imam Hussain (Alaihis-salaam) placed upon Hurr's (pbuh) head. After the cloth was removed from the body, which again, was in perfect condition, the wound which it concealed started to bleed once again.

The men were astonished by this and quickly placed the cloth back upon Hurr's (pbuh) head, and have him a proper burial thereafter. They are truly amazing miracles.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[Irishman]

Conveniantly, the Catholic Church believes these people are so holy that no real, unbiased scientific inquest into these occurences has occured. Hmm...

This (like most "miracles") are just too suspicious to be taken seriously. This is just too easy to fake.

If, on the off chance this is real, I think study is requisite as it could hold the key to stopping cell death! (I wont hold my breath).

[Thanatos]

Sin is the entropy that destroys the body. Those who are so holy as to have next to no stain of sin enjoy incorruptible bodies.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Sin is the entropy that destroys the body. Those who are so holy as to have next to no stain of sin enjoy incorruptible bodies.

Er, yup. Or it's good old saponification. Unless the Church lets someone actually examine these "miraculous corpses" we'll never know.

I did once see an interview with a guy who worked as a gravedigger who said that he'd seen several of these "incorruptible corpses" in exhumations over the years and assured the interviewer the people involved were no saints.

And it's interesting that the older the these corpses are, the less and less "incoruptible" they appear. As VoodooTengo points out, Saint Catherine of Siena is looking pretty crappy these days. The "miracle" theory doesn't explain this, strangely enough.

[VoodooTengo]

They have let scientists do independent tests on these saints, or at least some of them.

They also have a tendency to turn black after a while, but if Tanatos' theory is correct than maybe after a certain amount of time the holiness starts to wear off the body. But it is still miraculous that there is anything left of someone who has been dead for about 700 years, even if it is just her disgusting head.

Irishman how exactly would somebody fake this? Because they sure as hell are not wax dummies.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

They have let scientists do independent tests on these saints, or at least some of them.

Really? First I've ever heard of it. I just did a quick Google search on "incorruptible bodies/saints" and "tests" and found no mention of them. Got a source for that?

They also have a tendency to turn black after a while, but if Tanatos' theory is correct than maybe after a certain amount of time the holiness starts to wear off the body.

Er, yup.

But it is still miraculous that there is anything left of someone who has been dead for about 700 years, even if it is just her disgusting head.

No, it is not "miraculous". It's just a matter of how the body was entombed. Certain conditions can preserve bodies for centuries or even millennia without any "miracles" being involved.

Irishman how exactly would somebody fake this? Because they sure as hell are not wax dummies.

This one is. That's Saint Bernadette of Lourdes.

She was exhumed twice - once in 1909 and again in 1925. After the second exhumation the body was placed in a sealed glass coffin for display to the faithful. The first exhumation was made thirty years after her death. She had been placed in a sealed tomb (not buried in a wooden coffin in earth) and her body had been surrounded with moisture-absorbing charcoal and sawdust. I think anyone can begin to see how no "miracles" needed to be involved in the preservation of a corpse in those conditions. The report of the doctors who examined the corpse in 1909 describe nothing miraculous, just plain old mummification due to burial in anaerobic conditions:

"When the habits had been removed and the veil lifted from the head, the whole of the shriveled body could be seen, rigid and taut in every limb. It was found that the hair, which had been cut short, was stuck to the head and still attached to the skull, that the ears were in a state of perfect preservation, that the left side of the body was slightly higher than the right from the hip up. The stomach had caved in and was taut like the rest of the body. It sounded like cardboard when struck. The left knee was not as large as the right. The ribs protruded as did the muscles in the limbs."
(Drs Ch. David, A. Jourdan, September 22, 1909)

The second exhumation was witnessed by two other doctors, Doctor Talon and Doctor Comte, whose report read:

"The body is practically mummified, covered with patches of mildew and quite a notable layer of salts, which appear to be calcium salts. The skeleton is complete, and it was possible to carry the body to a table without any trouble. The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body. Some of the veins are still visible."

So what about the perfectly preserved face and hands seen by thousands of pilgrims? They don't look like a mummy's face and hands.

Well, that's because they're made of wax.

One account says that the face and hands were simply coated with wax:

A worker in wax who had frequently applied such a coating to the faces of the newly dead was entrusted with the task of coating the face of the Saint who had been dead forty years.
(Frances Parkinson Keyes, The Sublime Shepherdess, The Life of Saint Bernadette of Lourdes, 1940)

But others say a wax mould was taken from the face and hands and wax:

At this point, a precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a light wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos. This was common practice for relics in France, as it was feared that although the body was mummified, the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body.

So what we have here is no "miracle". Bernadette Soubirous was buried in conditions that led to mummification and what pilgrims are shown is a mummy wearing a wax mask with wax hands. If they didn't, they'd probably be looking at a shrunken mummy's face - a bit like that of Saint Catherine of Sienna.

The only mystery here is how readily some people see "miracles" when there clearly is nothing miraculous to see. :hmmm:

[VoodooTengo]

Really? First I've ever heard of it. I just did a quick Google search on "incorruptible bodies/saints" and "tests" and found no mention of them. Got a source for that?

I saw a TV show about, but since i cant prove that i guess i will have to concede that point. But the Church is usually forthcoming about tests on relics like the titulus or the shroud of turin (which is definately BS)

No, it is not "miraculous". It's just a matter of how the body was entombed. Certain conditions can preserve bodies for centuries or even millennia without any "miracles" being involved.

Thats not necessairly true, unless they are embalmed or mummified, specifically like the ones from China.

This one is. That's Saint Bernadette of Lourdes.

She was exhumed twice - once in 1909 and again in 1925. After the second exhumation the body was placed in a sealed glass coffin for display to the faithful. The first exhumation was made thirty years after her death. She had been placed in a sealed tomb (not buried in a wooden coffin in earth) and her body had been surrounded with moisture-absorbing charcoal and sawdust. I think anyone can begin to see how no "miracles" needed to be involved in the preservation of a corpse in those conditions. The report of the doctors who examined the corpse in 1909 describe nothing miraculous, just plain old mummification due to burial in anaerobic conditions:

"When the habits had been removed and the veil lifted from the head, the whole of the shriveled body could be seen, rigid and taut in every limb. It was found that the hair, which had been cut short, was stuck to the head and still attached to the skull, that the ears were in a state of perfect preservation, that the left side of the body was slightly higher than the right from the hip up. The stomach had caved in and was taut like the rest of the body. It sounded like cardboard when struck. The left knee was not as large as the right. The ribs protruded as did the muscles in the limbs."
(Drs Ch. David, A. Jourdan, September 22, 1909)

The second exhumation was witnessed by two other doctors, Doctor Talon and Doctor Comte, whose report read:

"The body is practically mummified, covered with patches of mildew and quite a notable layer of salts, which appear to be calcium salts. The skeleton is complete, and it was possible to carry the body to a table without any trouble. The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body. Some of the veins are still visible."

So what about the perfectly preserved face and hands seen by thousands of pilgrims? They don't look like a mummy's face and hands.

Well, that's because they're made of wax.

One account says that the face and hands were simply coated with wax:

A worker in wax who had frequently applied such a coating to the faces of the newly dead was entrusted with the task of coating the face of the Saint who had been dead forty years.
(Frances Parkinson Keyes, The Sublime Shepherdess, The Life of Saint Bernadette of Lourdes, 1940)

But others say a wax mould was taken from the face and hands and wax:

At this point, a precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a light wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos. This was common practice for relics in France, as it was feared that although the body was mummified, the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body.

So what we have here is no "miracle". Bernadette Soubirous was buried in conditions that led to mummification and what pilgrims are shown is a mummy wearing a wax mask with wax hands. If they didn't, they'd probably be looking at a shrunken mummy's face - a bit like that of Saint Catherine of Sienna.

Ok thats one case, and reminds me of the movie house of wax. I did know that the hands are coated in wax but i dont think the face is.

The only mystery here is how readily some people see "miracles" when there clearly is nothing miraculous to see. :hmmm:

That's one example, that does not explain the others. I also dont think the answer is "clear" but thats just my opinoin.

Edit: It really is more complicated then placing a body in drying agents to mummify it, espescially for long periods of time. That info again comes from another great discovery channel TV show.

[Irishman]

Sin is the entropy that destroys the body. Those who are so holy as to have next to no stain of sin enjoy incorruptible bodies.

What?

Im pretty sure it is the bacteria eating the body which causes the decay, not a mystical lack of sin.

[Thanatos]

Actually, it would be parasites who hatch once your body's pH level gets to a certain point.

[Ummon]

Not really.

Infact, though surely explainable, there are many instances in which this optimistic attitude is not fully justified.

Sant' Antonio da Padova (Saint Anthony of Padua) for example, was famous for his eloquence. His tongue is the only preserved part of his body.

http://www.geocities.com/abruscino/general.html

One of the most amazing facts regarding Saint Anthony is that his tongue is
incorrupt (see picture at right), and can be seen at the Basilica of the Saint,
in Padua, Italy.

A miracle? I don't know. Undeniable/unrefutable? Hardly. Yet, open-mindedness (and logic) requires that one tries to falsify one's own hypotheses, just for fun. It's called the modus tollens.

[Garbarsardar]

Sant' Antonio da Padova (Saint Anthony of Padua) for example, was famous for his eloquence. His tongue is the only preserved part of his body.

And from all the parts of the system that could be held accountable for "eloquence", divine providence selected the tongue?

If Broca's area was preserved, that, I would call a miracle...

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Infact, though surely explainable, there are many instances in which this optimistic attitude is not fully justified.

Which "optimistic attitude"? The believers' or the sceptics'?

Sant' Antonio da Padova (Saint Anthony of Padua) for example, was famous for his eloquence. His tongue is the only preserved part of his body.

Well, a shriveled-looking something in a reliquary which we're told is his "tongue". And it's not like the Catholic Church has ever lied about "saint's relics", now is it?

A miracle? I don't know. Undeniable/unrefutable? Hardly. Yet, open-mindedness (and logic) requires that one tries to falsify one's own hypotheses, just for fun. It's called the modus tollens.

I wonder which is more likely, that (a) a medieval saint's tongue was miraculously preserved or (b) that it's yet another faked medieval relic.

If anyone chooses (a), I have the skull of John the Baptist aged 12 going cheap. Genuine buyers only please.

[Garbarsardar]

If anyone chooses (a), I have the skull of John the Baptist aged 12 going cheap. Genuine buyers only please.

I will give you a still from the real Zapruder film and two reels of porn from Hitler's bunker. Deal?

[MasterAdnin]

Unfortunately, the Prophet (pbuh), Imam Ali (pbuh) and the other Imam's (pbut), except for Imam Mehdi (Alaihis-salam), are all buried along with all other religious figures.

Hazarat Hurr (pbuh) was buried shortly after his body was found in a desert, so I do not understand how his body should not have decomposed by then.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[Irishman]

They have let scientists do independent tests on these saints, or at least some of them.

No, they haven't. There have been no real unbiased examinations (ie- not people paid by the pope).

but if Tanatos' theory is correct than maybe after a certain amount of time the holiness starts to wear off the body.

It is not a theory, it has no supporting evidence and actually has evidence against the fact. In fact, his assumption is nothing more than baseless conjecture ignoring the science of decay.

Irishman how exactly would somebody fake this? Because they sure as hell are not wax dummies.

Hmm.... And you know this how? You have already seen an example as to how. The church will not let you touch these things, so how can you know. In fact, it is more likely a scam (given the lack of scientific research) than a miracle.

And yes they may be wax, or just vacuum packed saints, mmmmm tasty.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Utter myth.

[Irishman]

Actually, there have been. Look at the research labs that carbon-dated the Shroud of Turin, for example. Of course, these tests tend to show that the relics in question are fakes, but no surprises there ...

I was speaking more directly to the Incorruptibles (I couldn't find any at least), I realize that other relics have been examined, sorry for the mix up.