Islamic Fundamentalists =/= Radical Muslims

[MasterAdnin]

I want to discuss this because it has been on my mind for quite sometime. Is Islamic Fundamentalism really that bad? Let us take a look.

During the Middle Ages Islamic nations were flourishing under more or less correct Sharia law and fairly uncorrupted. This was mostly due to the fact that they relied heavily on the Sunnah, Hadiths, and Qu'ran and a "fundamentalist" version of the Qu'ran.

Fundamentalism is usually a religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles. In Islam, and Christianity for that matter, would fundamentalism really be that bad? It would mean returning to the original concepts laid down by the founders of the said religions.

In Islam, anything in excess is bad, except faith of course, therefore Islam stresses moderation in any and all activities performed by man. I believe that Islam is a religion of moderation and therefore, the fundamentalist movement of Islam would actually be a movement to modernize and keep faith at the same time, something that all nations strive to achieve.

Another thing is that if we look at the Muslim nation under the rule of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or Imam Ali (pbuh) they were extremely functional and were flourishing in all aspects of society. Based upon this I feel that returning to fundamentalist Islam would be a good thing for Muslims. Not only that, returning to fundamentalist Islam would mean getting rid of traditions which were passed down from pre-Islamic Arabic tradition, much of which is violent.

My conclusion is that Islamic Fundamentalism is actually a good thing, though the media uses it very lightly and in an incorrect manner. How do you guys feel about this?

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[VoodooTengo]

I'm against religious fundamentalism in general, people don't make changes to religions unless they have a good reason, and generally people even if they are publicly forced to are unwilling to accept them unless there is a good reason for them.

Though i think the Islamic Fundamentalists that people often criticize are more Islamic Fundamentalists/Extremists though fundamentalism and extremism are often synonymous.

[Ma'ahes]

Well, lemme put it to you this way.....are Christian Fundamentalists good? Kinda the same thing, doncha think?

[jankren]

Now how do you define Islamic Fundementalism or any other religious fundementalism? You do realise that the Wahabists believe that they too are following Fundementalist Islam, dont you brother Adnin?

[fieldmarshal]

I dont think islamic fundamentalism is that bad, But what is bad is fundamentalists trying to force islamic fundamentalism on others like in Afganistan, Pakistan, somalia..etc..you have horrible abuses on women and non-muslim minorities. The only reason people want to have sharia law is so they can be in control, it has nothing to do with religion. People were shot in somalia for waching the worldcup on tv by islamic fundamentalists. I believe religion is meant to be personal, forcing it on other people defeats the whole purpose of faith. So i dont care if my neighbor is a islamic fundamentalist, as long as he keeps it himself. When i lived in the mid-East, i had a gym teacher who was a fundamentalists, he dosent wach tv, or listen to the radio, he prays three times a day, but he never supported al-queda, he never looked down on me because i was a non-muslim. Fundamentalism in any religion is not bad, because they are meant to be applied to your life, but they dont give you the power or justification to harm others because they dont belive what you belive.

[VoodooTengo]

Ma'ahes:
No i dont like Christian Fundamentalists, i believe they are inherently bad, there is a thread in the Mudpit About them. I believe i said something to the effect of I fear all fundamentalists, the weapons of the Islamic fundamentalists are klashnikovs and RPG's, the weapons of Christian Fundamentalists are the TV, Radio, and Ballot Box, all of which (munitions,and the media) are equally dangerous.

Jankren: I dont know much about Islam, but i do know a bit about the Wahabists, so for clarification where do they differ from mainstream Islamic Fundamentalism?

[jankren]

Ma'ahes:
Jankren: I dont know much about Islam, but i do know a bit about the Wahabists, so for clarification where do they differ from mainstream Islamic Fundamentalism?

Wahabists believe that Al Quran and traditions reportedly originated from Muhammad called 'Hadith' are equally divine and must be followed word for word, even if many of the traditions are completely nonsensical and contradictory to Al Quran itself.

These are a few of the disturbing and ridiculously stupid traditions believed by Wahabists and other traditional Muslims:

(Bukhari - Book of Jihad Volume 4, Book 52, Number 7)
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa:
The Prophet said, "Know that Paradise is under the shadows of swords."

(Bukhari - Book of Jihad Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

(Bukhari - Book of Medicine Volume 7, Book 71, Number 641,642)
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet used to say to the patient, "In the name of the God, the earth of our land and the saliva of some of us cure our patient."

(Bukhari - Book of Jihad Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260)
Narrated Ikrima:
The Prophet said 'If a muslim leaves his religion, kill him.'

(Abu Dawood - Book 29, Number 3911)
Narrated Sa'd ibn Malik:
The Prophet said: "There is no bad luck; if there is in anything a bad luck, it is a house, a horse, and a woman."

As you can see all these are narrations by people attributed to Muhammad, and similar pattern of sexism, anti-semitism, intolerance, superstition, and barbarity can be found throughout the traditions (Hadith), the main source of all the nonsense associated with Islam and Muslims today.

Maybe one day when I have time I would start a thread explaining further the role of these demented traditions in destroying Islam.

Peace ,

[VoodooTengo]

Yes, they do sound very ridiculous, they sound more like something Borat would say, especially the one about a Jew hiding behind a rock.

[jankren]

Yes, they do sound very ridiculous, they sound more like something Borat would say, especially the one about a Jew hiding behind a rock.

Exactly, however this is not really a laughing matter because you or me could lose our head if an extremist traditional Muslim hears us making fun of those ridiculous traditions because they believe they originated from the Prophet himself thus they feel obliged to kill us in defense of their religion against our blasphemous comment.

[Irishman]

My conclusion is that Islamic Fundamentalism is actually a good thing, though the media uses it very lightly and in an incorrect manner. How do you guys feel about this?

I think it depends on what one is using as the "Fundamental Truth". For instance, I do not believe that adulterers, gays, beastialists and other deviants should be put to death, but Fundamentalist christians do.

This I find evil.

The fundamental problem with findamentalism , is that it is, by definition, resistant to change even moreso than standard religion. The scientific views expressed in many of the holy books are simply wrong and it is important to adjust religion to allow for these facts.

Religion, especially fundamentalist religion, often leads to inhumane treatment of "sinners" who have often done nothing morally reprehensible. This I think is a great crime and thus, fundamentalism is bad.

Also, fundamentalism (in western religions) naturally opposes what we are currently finding out about the world. I just recently had a discourse with I have facts about whether or not the world is 6000, or 4.5 billion years old.

Needless to say his fundamentalist "young earth" speal didn't have a leg to stand on, and I find that spreading lies such as this theory is unethical, if not unintelligent.

I think progressing religion to allow for the major advances in everything from science to philosophy is a good thing, and I think it is clear that people several thousand years ago did not know everything of the world, so why should we attempt to lower our knowledge back to their level?

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Islamic fundamentalism fails because the fundamentalists try to impose their own version of the ideology on people who do not wish to embrace it. The "fake" quotations posted by jankern stand testament to my claim.

The "Lal Masjid" incident in Islamabad, Pakistan is a clear example of how fundamentalists wish to empower themselves by force and enforce laws which are not only the opposite of what the majority wishes but also counter-productive.

Master Adnin, the problem is that the "fundamentalists" and the "fundamentals" have changed from the time of the Caliphate to now. For example, the Turkic and Arab scientists of those days introduced and encouraged inoculations whereas the traditional tribes-people of today reject them because they're "haram".

However, in your support, I will say that if a person believes in the fundamentals of his faith and practices them himself without trying to enforce them on others, he is pursuing a most noble policy.

[Sadreddine]

However, in your support, I will say that if a person believes in the fundamentals of his faith and practices them himself without trying to enforce them on others, he is pursuing a most noble policy.

This is the key conclusion.

Being a fundamentalist is not a bad thing, provided said fundamentalist is not closed-minded enough to try and impose his view on others by verbal aggression or physical violence.

Unfortunately, fundamentalism tends to provoke closed-mindedness itself. There is an annoying cycle here

In any case, the word "fundamentalist" is one of these words that common media has raped and bastardized until extenuation. Along with "Jihad", "Shari'ah" and...."Muslim".

[MasterAdnin]

Islamic Fundamentalism is different than Islamic Radicalism. The main difference being that Islamic Fundamentalism returns to the root principles the Prophet (pbuh) set down. This would mean that we would act as true Muslims should, and as we can see from the way the Prophet (pbuh) acted, it would be a tolerant society and one that would strive to modernize and achieve scientific and literary advances.

Wahabbi's claim that they are following Fundamental Islam, but they are not. One can claim to be anything. I could CLAIM to be Christian, though we all know I am not. The same goes for Whabbi's. They claim to be Muslim without even knowing what Islam is all about. It is hypocritical and just plain dumb.

Master Adnin, the problem is that the "fundamentalists" and the "fundamentals" have changed from the time of the Caliphate to now. For example, the Turkic and Arab scientists of those days introduced and encouraged inoculations whereas the traditional tribes-people of today reject them because they're "haram".

While I do agree that they are different, the thing is that these people have fused Islam with tradition, when in fact Islam is quite contradictory to Arab traditions. Islamic Fundamentalism would abolish pre-Islamic traditions which lead to violence, and would establish a more moderate society and would focus on education.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[Sadreddine]

Islamic Fundamentalism is different than Islamic Radicalism. The main difference being that Islamic Fundamentalism returns to the root principles the Prophet (pbuh) set down. This would mean that we would act as true Muslims should, and as we can see from the way the Prophet (pbuh) acted, it would be a tolerant society and one that would strive to modernize and achieve scientific and literary advances.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

I find this statement quite seducing...

However how romantic the idea might be, you'd have two problems:

1. The reported Hadith, which is the part you mention in "the way the Prophet (s) acted". Unless you discard a significant number of them that are "problematic", in which case you'd find great opposition from many Muslims.

2. Actual life is quite different from a bedouin's life in VII century a.C.

But in fact I understand what you mean. A return to the essence, if not in a literal, in a practical way.

[MasterAdnin]

I find this statement quite seducing...

Seducing?..how?

1. The reported Hadith, which is the part you mention in "the way the Prophet (s) acted". Unless you discard a significant number of them that are "problematic", in which case you'd find great opposition from many Muslims.

Although Hadiths and Sunnah are important, should we not focus on the unchanged, unaltered, perfect Qu'ran? From reading and understanding the Qu'ran we can filter out the false Hadiths and Sunnah. The Qu'ran should be our primary source.

2. Actual life is quite different from a bedouin's life in VII century a.C.

True, though the beauty of Islam is that its principles can be applied to any era and would still be considered modernized. The Prophet (pbuh) once said to learn even if you are in China. What does this mean? Obviously they could not learn about Islam in China back then, therefore the Prophet (pbuh) means non-religious knowledge. If Muslims focused in on this, then we would not be in our current situation.

But in fact I understand what you mean. A return to the essence, if not in a literal, in a practical way.

Yes. Basically I mean that by returning to true Islam, Fundamental Islam, we would rid Islam of the influence of pre-Islamic Arab tradition.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[jankren]

Although Hadiths and Sunnah are important, should we not focus on the unchanged, unaltered, perfect Qu'ran? From reading and understanding the Qu'ran we can filter out the false Hadiths and Sunnah. The Qu'ran should be our primary source.

If only all Muslims think the way you do brother. However in reality many if not most Muslims TODAY disagree with you. For them discarding false hadiths/traditions is out of the question even if they are utterly ridiculous and contradictory to Al Quran because the clerics already put the status 'Sahih/Authentic' on them thus refusing to follow them count as blasphemy and it is enough reason for Muslim extremists to chop your head off because according to tradition you qualify as apostate thus they are obliged to kill you.

What is ironic is that even Muslims in the past who supposedly knew better about Islam did not take hadiths/traditions for granted as Muslims today. They knew that there were errors and fabrications in them.

Ibn Khaldun, the 14th century great Muslim historian and philosopher wrote the following in his book Al-Muqaddimah:

The outstanding Muslim historians made exhaustive collections of historical events and wrote them down in book form. But, then, persons who had no right to occupy themselves with history introduced into those books untrue gossip which they had thought up or freely invented, as well as false, discredited reports which they had made up or embellished. Many of their successors followed in their steps and passed that information on to us as they had heard it. They did not look for, or pay any attention to, the causes of events and conditions, nor did they eliminate or reject nonsensical stories.

Historians, Qur'an commentators and leading transmitters have committed frequent errors in the stories and events they reported. They accepted them in the plain transmitted form, without regard for its value. They did not check them with the principles underlying such historical situations, nor did they compare them with similar material. Also, they did not probe (more deeply) with the yardstick of philosophy, with the help of knowledge of the nature of things, or with the help of speculation and historical insight. Therefore, they strayed from the truth and found themselves lost in the desert of baseless assumptions and errors.

Im sure even people with half a brain would spit on stories like these attributed to their prophet:

(Bukhari - Book of Creation Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

(Bukhari - Book of Knowledge Volume 1, Book 3, Number 77)
Narrated Mahmud bin Rabi'a:
"When I was a boy of five, I remember, the Prophet took water from a bucket with his mouth and threw it on my face."

(Bukhari - Book of Nikah Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30,31,32)
The prophet said "Bad luck is in the women, the house and the horse."

Peace ,

[MasterAdnin]

If only all Muslims think the way you do brother. However in reality many if not most Muslims TODAY disagree with you. For them discarding false hadiths/traditions is out of the question even if they are utterly ridiculous and contradictory to Al Quran because the clerics already put the status 'Sahih/Authentic' on them thus refusing to follow them count as blasphemy and it is enough reason for Muslim extremists to chop your head off because according to tradition you qualify as apostate thus they are obliged to kill you.

Thanks bro, for the first comments that is. I must say though that many Muslims today are Muslims only in name. They claim the West has become decadent, but so have they. They have destroyed the religion once known as Islam and have created in its place nothing more than hollow set of beliefs. They may pray, they may fast, they may do Hajj, but they are not Muslims if they do not follow the Qu'ran.

What is ironic is that even Muslims in the past who supposedly knew better about Islam did not take hadiths/traditions for granted as Muslims today. They knew that there were errors and fabrications in them.

Then it is now up to us to find out which Hadiths are false and which are true, and if we fail to do this, then we fail as Muslims to carry out justice and spread the word of Allah.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[Chaigidel]

the function of the devil is to confuse the message of the one god yes? there will always be lies tangled up in any religion

[Chaigidel]

Is it a stipulation of Islam that you MUST spread the faith?

[MasterAdnin]

Is it a stipulation of Islam that you MUST spread the faith?

No, we must spread the truth of our faith, meaning we must tell others what Islam truly stands for.

Adnan