The problem with Roman Auxilia and the Late Republic = A Suggestion.

[Black Francis]

Dear LT,

I recently reached the Marian reforms and began recruiting Late Republican Legions. However, it is at this point that I also find I am able to recruit uniformed Roman "Auxilia" (cav, skirmishers, sword armed, spear armed etc).

The problem is that these Auxilia are not contemporary with the Late Republican Legionary and are in fact often termed "Augustan" Auxilia because they came about as a result of the military reforms of Augustus which would make them contemporary with the Imperial Legionaries (in lorica Segmentata).

At the point of the Late Republican Legionaries the Romans were using irregular "Barbarians" either hired, coerced or allied, pretty much the equivalent to the available mercenaries in the game.

What I suggest is to:

Move all of the uniformed Augustan Auxilia of ALL varieties up a stage so they become available at the same time as Imperial Legionaries.

But then, what do the Late Republican Legionaries do for "Auxilia"? They should do as they did historically; look to barbarian "mercenaries".

BINGO, HISTORICAL ACCURACY IS RESTORED!


However, mercs are VERY expensive as it now stands.

Maybe you could reduce the cost of mercs for the Romans?

or

Make barbarians temporarily available in former barbarian provinces while the Romans are at the Late Republican Legionary stage.

Hope this is of use,

BF.

[Samariten]

Umm...LT already said the mod isnt historical in all ways for example the greaves for legio units....just dont recruit auxillia if you want to be accurate in history...for example many of us playing SPQR dont build Imperial barracks just because we wait for the republic to he overthrown and becoming an empire....much easier the remod the mod... : )

[Black Francis]

Umm...LT already said the mod isnt historical in all ways for example the greaves for legio units....just dont recruit auxillia if you want to be accurate in history...for example many of us playing SPQR dont build Imperial barracks just because we wait for the republic to he overthrown and becoming an empire....much easier the remod the mod... : )

I am well aware of the attitude towards historical accuracy of this mod and I agree with them for the most part.

However, I cant really see any reason why my proposition shouldn't be implemented other than it taking a bit of time moving the availability of some units up a level. I see no trade-off, compromise or even great amount of work involved.

On the other hand the mod gains:

Greater historical accuracy at no real cost.

A more interesting game for the Roman player (most players ) during the Late Republican period through the use of interesting barbarian mercenaries.

More to look forward to at the "Imperial" stage of Legionaries (we get Auxilia in addition to Imperial Legionaries in Segmentata).

Basically this would make the Late Republican and Imperial armies feel very different rather than just having the core units (Legionaries) change armour type (Hamata to Segmentata).

[lt1956]

Still you have Missile unit issues and javelin issues. AS there are NO Javelin mercs in The Barbarian lands. This would require ALOT more Units to become mercs. Its not impossible, and I did plan to add a few more mercs to the game, but making Auxilia units be with imperial Legions Causes some gameplay issues. Especially since Mercs are available is SMALL numbers and there are only 28 legions in the game period. So you would be Stuck trying to hire mercs to balance out your legions and yet there arent enough mercs compared to what you would get with auxilia infantry.

Example for every Legion I have alteast one Auxilia legion, this helps stabilize the enemy and prevent me from being attacked all the time because of limited armies which the AI sees as weakness. Then there is the Logistics alone of moving legions without any Armies that can garison the borders. While I like the idea in theory there are alot of gameplay issue to consider. With Premarius you have the Hastatii still in all the provinces but in Post marius what would you use? You can hire enough mercs even if I lowered upkeep. Giving to many makes the game more like Merc total War which is exactly what I consider RTR and EB to be and they are both not really Roman Mods but Nation mods.

I do remember you were a RTR fan. lol So you are used to the Merc units. I am planning on adding some more mercs in areas to balance out things and add variety, but moving the auxilia units, would require some serious thought. I will consider it carefully. It all depends on what I Like and what I think makes the mod more fun, if it does then I am all for it, but then some people like Clams and I dont. lol

Lt

[Black Francis]

Thanks for the reply LT and I'm glad you'll consider it at least.

I did forget about the Auxilia Legions though. I haven't been using them as I don't believe them to be historical enough. I guess it would mean you would have to drop the upkeep of Legions to replace the missing Auxila Legions in addition to dropping the cost of mercs....

However, I remember seeing that Garnier had dropped the cost of mercs (I've been trying to do this but haven't managed to get the cost to change in game despite editing the cost in edu... I think I am jinxed) and had whole armies made up of them lol. Maybe we could see these as "allied peoples" such as friendly Gauls in Roman service etc. Possible solution?

[lt1956]

not only costs but you forget there are only 28 legions and most dont have all the provinces needed. lol This would cause shortage of armies. As for Mercs or Allies, I think I can add more mercs, I like the price as it reflects the COSTS of mercs, they arent cheap and hsould cost more than Regular units as the main time most players use them is when they are desperate on campaign, and what good merc doesnt milk it?

[Konig]

How about including mercs as units you cant recruit? i know it isn't realistic, but this way their cost could be controlled as well as their numbers. And you can always add a new house rule impeding their use in Augustan legions.

[Black Francis]

How about including mercs as units you cant recruit? i know it isn't realistic, but this way their cost could be controlled as well as their numbers. And you can always add a new house rule impeding their use in Augustan legions.

So..... just add in the merc units as recruitable for Romans in settlements at the same level as Late Roman Republic Legions... and move Auxilia up to Imperial. Sweet!

This has to be the best and easiest solution.... I think...

We could argue that any merc unit is available at any Roman settlement because it reflects the way Romans used mercs/allies, often shipping them across the Empire. The settlement is therefore a kind of "assembly point" after they have been shipped accross the empire making it legitimate to recruit numidians in gaul for example! (they have been shipped there... reflected in high unit cost, plus the funny food they eat needs to be supplied so they have a high upkeep lol).

[Teodosio]

Maybe it could be possible to add a "second reform" event, that could be triggered when you build a certain structure in Rome.
That event would unlock imperial legions and auxilia, and mask republican legions.

[Garnier]

Maybe it could be possible to add a "second reform" event, that could be triggered when you build a certain structure in Rome.
That event would unlock imperial legions and auxilia, and mask republican legions.

That is when you build the imperial barracks. I just wait until a certain year to build it.

[Teodosio]

That is when you build the imperial barracks. I just wait until a certain year to build it.

You are right, but the issue here concerns the auxilia too, and how to postpone their use if a mercenary sytem is to be adopted for the late republic.
Black Francis was suggesting to put the auxilia in imperial barracks, but I think it could be unconfortable to build imperial barracks just to train auxilia. The second "reform event" would enable us to switch from rep. legions/mercenaries to imp. legions/auxilia AND to recruit auxilia from lower barracks.

Anyway I agree with lt1956 that there are several gameplay issues. Most of all, there is need of some low-tier infantry unit recruitable in every province (as hastati and auxilia now).

[lt1956]

I think the BEST solution for this issue is to keep the Auxilia Infantry for those that wish to use them, But also Lower upkeep SLIGHTLY for Merc units, keep purchase costs high to simulate desperation of needing them and their experience. Also increase their experience and Increase the NUMBER of Mercs available and more variet of MERCS?

Doest his sound like a good option?

I already have added the following mercs and plan to add more.

Spartans recruited in Sparta
Judeans recruited in Judeae
Barbarian Peltasts
Barbarian Noble Cavalry
Barbarian Swordsmen.
Cataphract Greek Elephants

More to come as I add them one at a time. I have to adjust the Skins, and make sure unti cards are added though there wont MATCH perfect as I never was good at unti cards and dont have 3max to adjust models to match UI cards. But they will be Close enough. Mian thing is not to have the SAME cards as the factions otherwise its hard to tell who is who.

[Garnier]

I really like the idea of more mercenaries. Wouldn't barbarians have skirmishers rather than peltasts though? I thought peltasts was a greek name, but I could easily be wrong.

And I've always wanted spartans recruitable in sparta. They should be quite rare though.

Definitely lower upkeep and increase the amount of units. And increased experience will be good, as they are currently very weak as opposed to other units, especially for the price.

[lt1956]

Well I meant skirmishers, but as you can see its longer to write skirmishers than Peltasts. lol

They arent called Peltast, they will be the same as Guals peltast just look different. I try to make a different skin for them, even though the UI card made be closer to a factions Unit. Not much I can do but the new Mercs will add some spice.

My Goal is to increase the amount of Mercs available for each recruitable area. Then Make sure ALL mercs are Experienced well, because after all they are Mercs and would be seasoned pretty much. I plan to keep the purchase cost or Increase the Purchase costs, but Lower Upkeep. This should be fair as Mercs will be better Experienced now and upkeep will be lower.

What this should mean is IF you have the cash and are in a Recruitable Area you should be able to recruit ALOT of mercs. Of course they would cost more than your average army but they wont be so high as to make them not worth recruiting.

I also made a new Merc unit that is for Africa region based off the Iberian infantry and Numidian Infantry, its a neat looking little unit. and now allows africa to have infantry besides only Skirmishers.

As I said now there is a HEAVY noble Cavalry for MERCS if you can afford nobility. lol and Skirmishers as well as the swordmen, as its balances the spearmen. I havent got to the east yet, but I am looking in that direction, but what I find is there are ALOT of mercs available for the east just not any for the barbarians.

So far there are 7 New mercs. I have to keep the models the same but change the skins as I am low on models for the DMB file.

anyway opinions are welcome.

Lt

[Garnier]

The new barbarians will be superb. Perhaps one more barbarian unit, a Briton unit would be cool, but its not really necessary. Already there are a lot of mercs available around greece, you have hoplites, barbarians, cavalry, archers, slingers and peltasts. I've never gotten very far east or north in my campaigns, so I don't know whats out there.

[Konig]

how about flaming pigs, screeching women and arcani? lol. just kidding . I guess it's official now. i'll be abandoning my current 6.3 campaign and wait for 6.4. I think mercs should be more expensive to purchase, specially Spartans and in their case their upkeep should also be high.

[lt1956]

Trust me the purchase cost are high and so it eats you money if you have any saved, the upkeep is half the cost of Purchase this is still more than your home units but still not too much. After testing to see how the AI behaves I will know. See what happens is if Mercs are too cheap the AI will recruit them all the time from you. lol

[Teodosio]

The issue of non-roman citizens in the army is quite important and I think it deserves more inquiry.
In pre-marian times, support was offered by socii (allied), that is, italian people without roman citizenship. They were required to provide a legion for each roman one. After the marian reform, Marius himself extended citizenship to all inhabitants of Italy, and the idea of allied forces effectively came to an end. It seems that auxilia units were established right away, and much earlier than the time of Augustus; at lest that is what I found on Wikipedia (look for: Auxiliaries (Roman military)). Furthermore, I read several accounts of famous republican post-marian battles: in each of them roman forces are given as a certain number of legionnaires and a number of auxiliares; mercenaries as seldom named.
Anyway we know that Caesar extensively employed German and some Gallic mercenary cavalry; Pompey used German cavalry too, and it's easy to suspect that other roman generals did the same. In later times, emperors often hired mercenary cavalry from Goths and Sarmatians (the latter were appreciated for their archery skill, and were very good in melee too).

Bottom line: historical accounts (famous battles and great generals/emperors) seem to suggest that auxilia were always employed in all roles, but mercenary cavarly was hired when extra strenght was required.
Good German cavalry, with a reasonable upkeep, would add a good extra flavour to SPQR! I think lt1956 is doing something of this sort.
Please let me know if you find some document with different information, I am very curious about such things, would like to lern more!

[Garnier]

There already are sarmatian mercenary cavalry. I've used them a lot in one of my previous campaigns when I invaded Germany early.

[Teodosio]

There already are sarmatian mercenary cavalry. I've used them a lot in one of my previous campaigns when I invaded Germany early.

Yes there are, but they are armed only with close combat weapons. Sarmatians were very good in hand-to-hand, but they were famous for their archery. I suppose they were similar to Scythian Noble Archers. You could hire Scythian Mercenaries as horse archers, but they are terribly weak in melee! They are even weaker than Roman Cavalry Auxilia, you must be REALLY desperate to recruit them!
My point is that roman generals didn't hire mercenaries only as last resource; indeed, they often recruited cavalry mercenaries (Germans and Sarmatians mainly) because they were better than roman auxilia. They didn't usually bother with infantry because roman legionnaires ruled; foederati appeared only when legions' strength began to falter, in late periods.

I hope to be giving useful suggestions for mercenary cavalry it would be nice to see ingame!
Regards