The Ancient Macedonians, who were they?

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

I want to get to the bottom of this.
Please don't post any links to boring websites with loads of stuff to read (or books) I'm too lazy .
I've always tought of the Macedonians as Greeks who were a little backwards and shut out. Hence called barbarians... Well the Athenians in particular seem to have been fond of calling everyone barbarians. Which is why I never took the whole barbarian theory seriously, it was more or less common insult.

As far as I know Slavs arrived to eastern Europe and the Balkans at the time when the Germanians started moving westwards (around 400 AD, no?). So what claim (if any) does FYRO Macedonia have on Ancient Macedonia?

Didn't Alexander say "Thank the gods that I was born a Greek" or something like that?

I'm fond of polls, so ill post a poll aswell, what do you think? Vote there .

[conon394]

Hick Greeks more or less… Sure Demosthenes had a lot of trash to tall about Macedonians; remember however that context is all-important. Demosthenes had quite correctly recognized what a threat to Athens Philip’s Macedonia was - so thus all his vitriol against those Athenians who sought collaboration with Macedonia and of Macedonia or its ruler(s).

If Persia and been the biggest threat to Athens in the late 4th century, and Macedonia weaker you can bet Demosthenes would have been frothing at the mouth about Persian barbarians and the necessity of alliance with Macedonia and it obviously Hellenic rulers descended from the Argives…

But don’t judge the Athens so quickly; Isocrates noted that Hellenism was not a blood trait but a culture that could be learned and adopted – and in his book Macedonia and it leader qualified.

[Phoebus]

What Conon said.

[Segestan]

Macedonia was a separate Kingdom founded at Edessa in 813 BC. The population that became apart of the Macedonian Throne-Kingdom over the preceding centuries were not of the same origin of tribes as those who called themselves Hellen’s, but were rather in greater numbers from the Illyrian and other families of tribes. For the first 400 years or so this Kingdom north of Hellas was under the protection of either Athens, Sparta or Thebes.
Macedon however came under Persian Rule in the 5th century BC as a tribute paying Kingdom, that only regained it’s independence by the Greek victories over Persia. Though this lead to the Gold mines of Macedon and it’s provinces coming under Athenian control.
Amytas II was then the King of Macedon who had adopted three son’s into the royal house ; Perdiccas , Alexander and Phillip II with his only real blood son being Ptolemy. After the death of Amytas II, the throne was contested by the three adopted brothers over his real son Ptolemy. With the aid of foreign interests, Perdiccas , and Alexander in turn ruled for a time, but were both killed , Phillip II the youngest of the adopted children , then took the throne , he then retook the Gold mines , the much needed cash , and reestablished Macedon as a sovereign power.
The original seats of the Macedonians were in the regions east of the chain of Skardus ( the northerly continuation of Pindus) — north of the chain called the Cambunian mountains , which forms the north-western boundary of Thessaly; but did not reach so far eastward as the Thermaic gulf.... The Macedonian language was different from Illyrian , from Thracian , and seemingly also from the Paeonian. It was also different from the Greek, yet apparently not more widely distinct than that of the Epirots; so that the acquisition of Greek was comparatively easy to the chiefs and the people... the large and comparatively productive region covered by the various sections of Macedonians , helps to explain that increase of ascendency which they successively acquired over their neighbors. It was not however until a late period that they became united under one government . At first , each section— how many are not known, — had its own prince or chief. The Elymiots , or inhabitants of Elymeia , the southern most portion of Macedonia , were thus originally distinct and independent ; also the Orestae , in mountains-seats somewhat north-west of the Elymiots .... the section of the Macedonian name who afterwards swallowed up all the rest and became known as ‘ The Macedonians’ had their original center at Edessa.
The modern Republic of Macedonia and the Greek province of Macedonia both has their origins in Ancient Macedon.
The trouble arises from the destruction and subsequent formation of the modern day Greece after the Balkans wars in the 1800's. The Greeks of Asia were traded for the Turks of Greece making a new Greek Empire out of what was before Macedonian and Hellenic regions.
The slavic migrations that came into the balkans over the many preceding centuries has replaced, for many of original native peoples of Macedonian stock the original tongue spoken by their ancestors, not unlike native Americans and others around the world, which has been lost. Latin to would most likely have been lost without the Papacy. Modern day Greek populations and Government propaganda refuses to acknowledge historical truths regarding Macedonia. They say Macedon was Greek but in fact the Hellen’s became under the Macedonian yoke until Rome destroyed Macedon.

[Hmmm]

Macedonia was a separate Kingdom founded at Edessa in 813 BC. The population that became apart of the Macedonian Throne-Kingdom over the preceding centuries were not of the same origin of tribes as those who called themselves Hellen’s, but were rather in greater numbers from the Illyrian and other families of tribes. For the first 400 years or so this Kingdom north of Hellas was under the protection of either Athens, Sparta or Thebes.

What? Do you have any proof whatsoever of the Makedones supposed Illyrian origin? I hate it when people are to ignore thousands of texts and inscriptions and several ancient historians all claiming that the ancient Makedonians was Greeks.

Much of your text does not even have anything to do with the topic, which is about whether they were Greeks or not, not about their history.

The original seats of the Macedonians were in the regions east of the chain of Skardus ( the northerly continuation of Pindus) — north of the chain called the Cambunian mountains , which forms the north-western boundary of Thessaly; but did not reach so far eastward as the Thermaic gulf.... The Macedonian language was different from Illyrian , from Thracian , and seemingly also from the Paeonian.

It was also different from the Greek, yet apparently not more widely distinct than that of the Epirots; so that the acquisition of Greek was comparatively easy to the chiefs and the people...

Any proof for the so called "macedonian" language? At all? I know that you will come up with the Philotas example by Quintius Curtius Rufus, but that can hardly be seen as proof, considering that MUCH earlier historians tell us that they were Greeks. Herodotus and Livy, for example. The Persians calling them "Yauna Takabara" (Greeks wearing the hat). What about the fact that the word Makedon is Greek (makednos, meaning "tall" or "highlander"). What about the fact that 6000+ inscriptions that has been found has all been in Greek?

also the Orestae

Greek again, "mountain-men".

The modern Republic of Macedonia and the Greek province of Macedonia both has their origins in Ancient Macedon.

Care to prove the so called relation of FYROM to Ancient Makedon? It was not even part of Ancient Macedon, which at first was very small and later came to cover about what modern Greek Makedonia covers, not until Phillip II did the Makedones controll the areas of modern FYROM.

Modern day Greek populations and Government propaganda refuses to acknowledge historical truths regarding Macedonia. They say Macedon was Greek but in fact the Hellen’s became under the Macedonian yoke until Rome destroyed Macedon.

Modern day Greek populations and Government, historians such as Herodotus, Titus Livius, Polybius, Plutarch, Strabo, Thucydides, Isocrates, Aeschines, Pausanias, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, N.G.L Hammond, Otto Hoffman ect ect would be a better way to portray the whole situation than just saying to two first. "The thruths" regarding Makedon is nothing else than the evidence pointing at them being Greeks.

The southern city states was conquered by the northern state of Makedon, but that does not prove that the Makedones were not Greek, the Greeks was never a unified empire. The Makedones was actually not in controll of all of Greece until the Romans conquered them, what about the Aitolean or Aechean League?

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

What do you base it on that they are Illyrian? Every history book that I have ever read said that they were Greek... I don't understand where all this comes from. FYRO Macedonia has since forever been a part of Serbia, it was thanks to Sovjet propaganda that they even wanted to form their own nation, before that they always saw themselves as Serbs.

As far as I know proto-Germanic peoples occupied eastern Europe at this time.

[iudas]

All the ancient texts say the Macedonians were ethnic Chinese.

But then again I might be wrong, if I am, though... they were Hellenes.

[Stalins Ghost]

I'll be able to give you a detailed answer. In a years time . My second year of my degree has a 6th of it dedicated to discussing the cultural transformation of Macedon up until Alexander the Great.

My personal thoughts as of now are that they simply would not have spent nearly 2 centuries desperately trying to adopt Greek culture if they and the Greek world considered them fully Greek. Macedon is interesting, in that where in the rest of the world, the Greeks defined themselves in terms of polarisation; such as Greek/Barbarian, Slave/Citizen, Man/Woman etc; Macedon was in a way somewhat half Greek. Culturally, out on the fringes of the Northern Hellenic mainland, they only had some of the features that the Greek's used to define themselves; such as Cities on the scale the Greek's predominately held, theatre (in the 5th through 4th centuries, Macedon spent vast sums re-enacting Athenian plays) for example.

Basically as I see it, Macedon is one of the few examples of the ancient Greek's polarised view of the world failing to fully incorporate the big picture.

Still. In a years time I'll be able to give a more professional response

[kadmilos]

The Ancient Macedonians, who where they?

That is hard to tell, but I ll kind of agree with most of the posters
They most likely were a kind of "macedonian salad" similar in a way with the modern mess regarding the so called "macedonian issue"

There is the dominant view (and early one) which treats the ancient macs as greeks and a rather later view mostly held by borza and his fellow badian (and green) who treat them strictly (and bizzarely with great push) as hellenised non greek people....
However they wont tell us what the heck those macedonians had been in the first place, given that the macedonians are considered by those academics themselves as totally alien to the greeks. Lets not forget that the original macedonian kingdom before its expansion southwards, northwards and eastwards was more or less of the size of Thessaly! That means there is absolutely no way to form a distinct race by itself!
Furthermore there is no convincing evidence of the macedonians being non hellenic people such as Thracians, Illyrians or Phrygians although certain individuals propose it dogmatically (a few arbitrary examples are there in Segestan's post - no offense mate)

I think the macedonians were at least partly hellenic (as plenty of references and findings suggest) and probable included elements of all three non hellenic neighbours of theirs which the Argeadic dynasty assimilated in rather large numbers i suppose.

[Segestan]

Greek propaganda cannot change historical facts. Macedonia is Not Greek.

I really think this issue is going to become the cause of war in the Balkans. You may take the side of Greece in this matter if you please, but the Macedonians are Not going to just disappear , not stop to exist as a people, as a nation, just for the purpose of Greek propaganda and profiteering. Present all the supposed facts you wish against Macedonia , facts that are given by the powers that be, it be your right, but still this issue will not just die any more than did the Jewish in were exile out of the Holy Land forced into a global Diaspora. The emotions run high on both sides, the Greeks have had many years to hide the origin of Macedon ; the fuel of war still exists today.
If Alexander the Greek would have been Greek than their would have been no reason to be a King of Macedonian....... Barbarians!
Arrogant Greek pride thinks the past belongs to them.

[Phoebus]

Greek propaganda cannot change historical facts. Macedonia is Not Greek.

Propaganda? Where is the Macedonian dialect? The Macedonian cultural evidence? It's just coincidence that a tradition of uniquely Macedonian writings is absent from the entirety of the intercontinental empire they once headed?

I really think this issue is going to become the cause of war in the Balkans.

Please. If Hellas was going to do that, she would have done so prior to FYROM getting tight with the US.

You may take the side of Greece in this matter if you please, but the Macedonians are Not going to just disappear , not stop to exist as a people, as a nation, just for the purpose of Greek propaganda and profiteering.

Friend, even if the Macedonians were not a Hellenic people, they're long gone. The inhabitants of FYROM have no claim to him. And before you try to misconstrue this as profiteering or what have you, I have no issue with the people of FYROM.

[Garbarsardar]

I think the OP asked a question about Ancient Macedonians. And strangely the title of this thread confirms that:

The Ancient Macedonians, who where they?

Now, if some people here are hellbent on pushing their agenda in every chance, I would ask them to move to another topic-if it does not exist they can always create one.

[Juggernaut]

Greek propaganda cannot change historical facts. Macedonia is Not Greek.

I really think this issue is going to become the cause of war in the Balkans. You may take the side of Greece in this matter if you please, but the Macedonians are Not going to just disappear , not stop to exist as a people, as a nation, just for the purpose of Greek propaganda and profiteering. Present all the supposed facts you wish against Macedonia , facts that are given by the powers that be, it be your right, but still this issue will not just die any more than did the Jewish in were exile out of the Holy Land forced into a global Diaspora. The emotions run high on both sides, the Greeks have had many years to hide the origin of Macedon ; the fuel of war still exists today.
If Alexander the Greek would have been Greek than their would have been no reason to be a King of Macedonian....... Barbarians!
Arrogant Greek pride thinks the past belongs to them.

You know, maybe, just maybe, it might actually HELP your argument if you present some evidence/sources rather than a political rant.

[Hmmm]

Greek propaganda cannot change historical facts. Macedonia is Not Greek.

To state such a thing and not come up with any evidence at all is just... ignorant. You wont convince ANYONE if you dont come up with evidence.

I really think this issue is going to become the cause of war in the Balkans.

Please stay on-topic, dont mess around with other stuff just because you cant keep argumenting but refuse to acknowledge defeat.

You may take the side of Greece in this matter if you please, but the Macedonians are Not going to just disappear , not stop to exist as a people, as a nation, just for the purpose of Greek propaganda and profiteering. Present all the supposed facts you wish against Macedonia , facts that are given by the powers that be, it be your right,

"Supposed facts"?! What facts do YOU have? All FYROM "has" is the bloody name and area, both which are wrong (FYROM is located in Paionaia, NOT MACEDONIA, and the word Makedon is Greek, means "highlander"). "The supposed facts" that Greece has is Herodotus, Polybius, Plutarch, Isocrates, Thucydides, Aeschinus, Titus Livius, Strabo, Pausanias, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, 6000+ texts and inscriptions all written in Greek (and remember that those are all the texts found there from the period, any so called "Macedonian" language has not been found).

the Greeks have had many years to hide the origin of Macedon ; the fuel of war still exists today.

Hide? Hide what?

If Alexander the Greek would have been Greek than their would have been no reason to be a King of Macedonian....... Barbarians!
Arrogant Greek pride thinks the past belongs to them.

I do not even understand that part. If you mean that Alexander tG should have been called King of Greece just because he was Greek you are wrong, since the Greeks was NEVER a unified people. Makedon was only one of the MANY Greek states around. Your constant statements that are not backed up by any evidence is annoying.
That last sound a little racist, stop pulling up that racist card once you find yourself pressed to a corner with no escape. "Arrogant Greek pride" just happens to have evidence on their side, something that FYROM lacks.

[Tiberios]

delete please.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

While the Greeks of the city-states were urban-dwellers, the Macedonians were the mountain-people. Obviously, that would lead to cultural differences but in culture, they were Greek.

[shylence]

Maybe the Macedonians were a mixture. Where the Hellenic people met the Thracians and the illyrians and it merged and the dominat culture was a greek one albeit a, in modern day context a bit of a redneck one. No offence to american southerners.

The whole thing about modern Macedonia seems bollox. its just a name they are Slavic they speak a Slavic language. People from the UK will call themselves British when the majority are infact saxon or anglic only the Welsh cornish and Cumbrians can claim any sort of true britishness. IFF we want to get technical about it!


Where do the Dorians fit into this. maybe the Macedonians were dorians. who i think wernet greek but a bit of a barbarian tribe from the north. Also maybe a few Gauls or celts got in with the act of the ethnic make up of macedonia

[kadmilos]

Where do the Dorians fit into this. maybe the Macedonians were dorians. who i think wernet greek but a bit of a barbarian tribe from the north.

During the classical and preclassical times the doric Greeks were the most dominant Hellenic tribe along with the Ionians with the Athenians considered the strongest of the latter and the Spartans being the strongest of the dorians. The Macedonians could have had a doric element amongst others, since according to Herodotus and other historians, the doric race had moved southwards from the mountains of Pindos (Macedonian highlands)

Actually Herodotus, speaking about the greeks of Great Cyrus and Kroisos times, describes the doric race as "hellenic" and the ionian as "pelasgic".....so the dorians should be considered as much greek as it can get

its just a name they are Slavic they speak a Slavic language

The ancient Macedonians are placed by history as part of the wider history of hellenism whether some revisionists like it or not.
Propaganda is there by both sides, so lets leave the modern politics aside

Certain cirles are so depserate to show off as "legitimate" ancestors of the ancient macs and get rid of their slavic (bulgarian and serbian) roots that will make up the wildest of theories!


now have some fun with Professor Tome Boshevski interviewed by Risto Stefov :

"After five Macedonian-Roman wars fought in the second century BC with Philip V and his son Perseus, a large number of Macedonians including most of the elite and ruling class, fled Macedonia and headed north away from the conflict.
Fearing a slaughter from the Roman armies descending on Macedonia from the south, from Peloponnesus, they fled the Balkans and resettled north as far as Siberia.
No people leave their homes voluntarily on masse unless they are coerced.
This massive evacuation was certainly coerced by the violent Roman invasion which accounted for about half of Macedonia's population leaving Macedonia.
The other half still remained and lived on Macedonian territory."

(that was the way that certain FYR Macedonians explain how it happens their language to be part of the slavic family)


http://www.maknews.com/html/articles...tone_boshevski
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/makheritage/message/411

another example...the rosetta stone which helped in deciphering hieroglypchics is suggested that contains a mysterious "macedonian language" ?!
..while the whole world is aware that the two of three languages of the text are in egyptian (hieroglyphic and demotic) and the third one in greek (since the Ptolemaic dynasty ruled Egypt at the time)

http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/
http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk...entov-angl.pdf
http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk...v-appendix.pdf
http://www.exploringmacedonia.com/wb...ov-english.pdf

amongst others certain history revisionists claim that half (if not all!) the hellenic mythology, deities and folk were not actually greek but...."(slavo)macedonian"...so goddess athena comes from slavic "tatina"!
..zeus and olympic games have a slavic background!

example implying that daidalus and icarus are actually not greek

anyway...in greek army's training camps the trainers usually tell to the recruites : "opinions are like *******s, everybody has one"

[Hmmm]

The Dorians was a Greek tribe, actually. Sparta and Corinth were Dorians, for example, as was the Messinians. They were one of the many Greek tribes.

[shylence]

yer but where did they come from.. didn't they pour down from the north somewhere after the mycecae (sp) battles with Troy. I know its off topic and its a few centuries before macedonia comes into exsistance but where did Hellenism end..?!?!

It seams that maybe it was Macedonia. whatever they were if they were not Greek they aspired to be them as the most civilised people in that part of the world. just like the romans did and the estruscans before them.

Maybe the original Macedonian language was lost long before Such as the way Scottish Gaelic is in its final dying days and is 97% replaced by English maybe The late classical Hellenes were quite different from the Earlier ones.

i see what your saying but i think it was cultural assimilation that had been happening since maybe 1100BC