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  1. #1
    Yuiis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    spanish tourists/erasmus students were arrested a week ago for stealing a Latvian flag and supposedly damaging it. News here in spain say that in Latvia this is a crime that can be punished for up to 3 years of prison.

    The thing is that this news at first made me laugh. What a band of jerks I thought...but then as I started to think about it it started looking very ridiculous. How the hell can you go to prison for stealing a flag off some corner of a street, in maybe one wild night???

    Lol if we catalans had to arrest every english/french/german etc tourists that went way too far on a wild night, prisons would be full xDDD

    Just joking, no offense, theres tourists of many kind, and I defend that bringing all the money they bring into the country it is stupid to arrest them at least for just stealing a flag....a piece of cloth that yes, it symbolizes something, but I think arresting and keeping people in prison for this two weeks before the trial is way too much...

    Sometimes laws are a bit too strange...

    what do you guys think?

    http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17872/

    (...) and that unfortunate People were afterwards forced to undergo the utmost Miseries of a Siege, in their Capital City of Barcelona; during which, great Multitudes of them perished by Famine and the Sword, many of them have since been executed; and great Numbers of the Nobility of Catalonia, who, for their Constancy and Bravery in Defence of their Liberties, and for their Services in Conjunction with Her Majesty and Her Allies, had, in all Honour, Justice, and Conscience, the highest Claim to Her Majesty's Protection, are now dispersed in Dungeons throughout the Spanish Dominions.
    -Journal of the House of Lords: volume 20: 1714-1717, pp. 136-144.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Yeah, but its Latvia, it ain't a fully westernized country.
    It's like getting caught with hash in most of Asia. In the USA or Europe, it is a look the other way sort of deal, at worst a be gone and do not return, but in Asia, it is welcome to the monkey house.

    And Latvia isn't really banking on the tourist dollars anyway, and realistically, if the kids' parents have any money, this will go nowhere, even with politics involved.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    As you said it is just a piece of cloth. Whether damaging a flag is such a bad thing or not depends on why someone does it. If the tourists thought "This country sucks, lets desecrate the flag" or something like that then it is a bad thing. If they were drunk and thought "Oh cool, a flag, lets take it" then they are just stupid.
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Crul View Post
    The flag is the symbol for a nation. Just like say the Statue of Liberty is a symbol for the USA. I think desecrating of any country's flag by anyone should be taken seriously. Although obviously sending them to prison is going overboard.

    I mean if ppl look the other way when a flag is burnt, whats next? Now its ok to burn down the country's parliament?

    They should have been just kicked out of the country, never allowed to come back or make them do some community service or something.
    A country's parliament on the other hand is not a piece of cloth.
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    Yuiis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Crul View Post
    The flag is the symbol for a nation. Just like say the Statue of Liberty is a symbol for the USA. I think desecrating of any country's flag by anyone should be taken seriously. Although obviously sending them to prison is going overboard.

    I mean if ppl look the other way when a flag is burnt, whats next? Now its ok to burn down the country's parliament?

    They should have been just kicked out of the country, never allowed to come back or make them do some community service or something.
    I don't know, I think it is going way too far...(Heck even for me, a nationalist ). Nationalism is ok, but there should be a limit...if there is too much of it, it starts becoming stupid imo...

    (...) and that unfortunate People were afterwards forced to undergo the utmost Miseries of a Siege, in their Capital City of Barcelona; during which, great Multitudes of them perished by Famine and the Sword, many of them have since been executed; and great Numbers of the Nobility of Catalonia, who, for their Constancy and Bravery in Defence of their Liberties, and for their Services in Conjunction with Her Majesty and Her Allies, had, in all Honour, Justice, and Conscience, the highest Claim to Her Majesty's Protection, are now dispersed in Dungeons throughout the Spanish Dominions.
    -Journal of the House of Lords: volume 20: 1714-1717, pp. 136-144.

  6. #6
    Crul's Avatar Libertus
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    Default

    In Thailand a British (I think he was british) man was sentenced to 10 years in prison for apparently "insulting" the King of Thailand. They take their monarchy seriously over there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
    As you said it is just a piece of cloth. Whether damaging a flag is such a bad thing or not depends on why someone does it. If the tourists thought "This country sucks, lets desecrate the flag" or something like that then it is a bad thing. If they were drunk and thought "Oh cool, a flag, lets take it" then they are just stupid.
    The flag is the symbol for a nation. Just like say the Statue of Liberty is a symbol for the USA. I think desecrating of any country's flag by anyone should be taken seriously. Although obviously sending them to prison is going overboard.

    I mean if ppl look the other way when a flag is burnt, whats next? Now its ok to burn down the country's parliament?

    They should have been just kicked out of the country, never allowed to come back or make them do some community service or something.
    Last edited by Scorch; June 03, 2007 at 04:38 AM.
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    Edelward's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Latvians have took worsest of everything: first they are allowed to be proud for being Hitler's sidekicks - only nation in the world those darned -... (had deathcamps there too ),then they inherited lot of Soviet scumfeatures :ultra hard punishments for nothing ,iron borders controls , spying on their citizens ... I say out of EU or if they stay then my country should leave it .

  8. #8

    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelward View Post
    Latvians have took worsest of everything: first they are allowed to be proud for being Hitler's sidekicks - only nation in the world those darned -... (had deathcamps there too ),then they inherited lot of Soviet scumfeatures :ultra hard punishments for nothing ,iron borders controls , spying on their citizens ... I say out of EU or if they stay then my country should leave it .
    Latvians are not proud of "being Hitlers Sidekicks". Coming from Latvian heritage Ive listened to my grandparents tell me stories from there time spent at Kaiserwald. They both have the tattoos to prove it. they are native Latvians that the Germans placed into that camp.

    Back on topic. It's not wrong to have pride in one country. For alot on eastern Europeans that flag means alot to them. Symbolizing their heritage and accomplishments. If visiting a foreign country you have to follow that countries laws because you are a visitor and fall under that country's jurisdiction.

  9. #9
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Were they arrested for stealing the flag, or for damaging it?

    Stealing is a crime in every country AFAIK.
    But three years for stealing something that probably costs less than $100 is a bit harsh.

    I'm assuming the real "offense" is damaging the flag, which of course is silly nationalism, but Latvians are well known for their silly nationalism so they should have known better. (same applies to that guy who insulted the Thai King)



  10. #10
    Finn's Avatar Total Realism
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    These guys deserved to be punished for stealing and damaging the Latvian flags,.
    I'm sure they wont get three years, more likely a slap on the wrist, and a lesson learned should suffice.


  11. #11

    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    So much crap about Latvia in this thread. Hitler sidekicks, Latvia isn't fully westernized, Latvian nationalism - com on you people? Edelward's post is the dumbest of all, must be living in a cave.
    Don't worry, Spanish and Portuguese tourists won't be sent to prison for 3 years, just will get a fine.
    The full story is that these tourists stole 5 Latvian flags in total, and someone called police when these guys were trampling these flags. When the police arrived and the tourists noticed them - they threw two flags in the river.

    Similar case was when one drunk British tourist was cought while pissing on the monument of freedom.
    Last edited by Herkus; June 02, 2007 at 02:07 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    We also arrested and punished many people that burned our flags during the april riots. Serves them right. They will probably just get a fine anyway.
    If you go to a foreign country you better respect the country your going to. Ok, these people were probably drunk and didnt really know what they were doing, so a warning/fine should be enough. But if one knowingly burns/damages the flag of a country they are in, they deserve punishment.
    Sending to prison is of course a bit overboard though.





    Yeah, but its Latvia, it ain't a fully westernized country.
    It's like getting caught with hash in most of Asia. In the USA or Europe, it is a look the other way sort of deal, at worst a be gone and do not return, but in Asia, it is welcome to the monkey house.

    And Latvia isn't really banking on the tourist dollars anyway, and realistically, if the kids' parents have any money, this will go nowhere, even with politics involved.
    Excuse me? Isnt fully westernized? And this is because?

    Latvians have took worsest of everything: first they are allowed to be proud for being Hitler's sidekicks - only nation in the world those darned -... (had deathcamps there too ),then they inherited lot of Soviet scumfeatures :ultra hard punishments for nothing ,iron borders controls , spying on their citizens ... I say out of EU or if they stay then my country should leave it .
    Hitler's sidekicks? Explain this now. Because they fought against the soviets? Do you know what the soviets did in the Baltic states in 1940?
    Latvians, and Estonians and Lithuanians, fought against the Soviet Union because of the red year. Trust me, every Balt hated Nazi Germany just as much as the Soviet Union, but it was the anger that the soviets had created what kept them fighting. I remember that.. i think it was our Generalkommissar not sure, that reported to Berlin that the only thing that keeps the Estonians from an uprising is the common enemy, and that if Great Britain or USA garauntees the borders of the Baltic States an uprising is certain.

    Iron border controls? Source? And spying on citizens? Oh please, now your just making up lies.
    I'm assuming the real "offense" is damaging the flag, which of course is silly nationalism, but Latvians are well known for their silly nationalism so they should have known better. (same applies to that guy who insulted the Thai King)
    Silly nationalism? This nationalism has kept our countries alive. Without it, we wouldnt exist
    Last edited by Enemy of the State; June 02, 2007 at 02:49 AM.

  13. #13
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Estlander View Post
    Hitler's sidekicks? Explain this now. Because they fought against the soviets?
    I will let the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Latvia to explain it:

    The Holocaust in German-Occupied Latvia

    Einsatzgruppe A Organises the Holocaust. In the Baltic region, the Holocaust was organised and supervised by a special Operational Unit of the Nazi Security Service (Sicherheitsdienst—SD) commanded by Major General (Brigadeführer) Walter Stahlecker. This unit arrived with the advance troops of the occupying army. From November 1941 on the command was assumed by SS and Police General Friedrich Jeckeln, the Supreme Commander of the SS and Police in Northern Russia and Ostland.

    Co-optation of Local Auxiliaries. According to documented sources, the Stahlecker Operational Unit A was directed to initiate spontaneous pogroms by the local population in the occupied Baltic territory. The attempts to do so were not successful. However, individual Latvians were co-opted to become accomplices in furthering the Nazi aims. Several SD auxiliary units were formed. The unit commanded by Viktors Arājs (the "Arājs Commando") existed the longest and gained the greatest notoriety. In 1941 it numbered some 300 men and participated in the Holocaust in Latvian territory; additional men were recruited in 1942 when the unit was involved in punitive actions and Nazi crimes along the eastern border in Russia and Belarus.

    Anti-Semitic Propaganda. Racist and dehumanising German propaganda justifying the annihilation of Jews was unleashed already in the first days of the occupation: posters, exhibitions and articles in newspapers. Jews were accused of Communist atrocities and murders during their one-year rule in 1940–41. Victims found in mass graves were used to incite anti-Jewish sentiments. Propaganda was organised by a special propaganda unit from Germany. The Jews were publicly ostracised, humiliated and discriminated against administratively: they were ordered to wear the Star of David, ordered to clear rubble and to exhume the victims of Communist atrocities, forbidden to walk on sidewalks, to frequent public places, to shop, etc.

    The First Phase of Annihilation July–August 1941. The first mass murders of Latvian Jews started in July and continued until September. Groups of Jews were ordered shot in Riga, Daugavpils and in many smaller towns. Recent research shows that all these actions were organised by German authorities but usually carried out by Latvian auxiliaries without direct German involvement. In September, the remaining Jews in Riga were herded into a fenced-in ghetto in the city's Moscow Suburb and forcibly kept there under guard.

    The Second Phase of Annihilation November–December 1941. From the Riga Ghetto, under the direct supervision of Friedrich Jeckeln, about 25,000 Jews were driven on foot to Rumbula, on the outskirts of Riga, and murdered there in two operations— on 30 November and 8 December 1941. Latvians performed guard duties; Jeckeln's SS men shot the victims. About 3000 Jews from Liepāja were murdered between 15 and 17 December. This was practically the end of the mass annihilation of approximately 70,000 Latvian Jews. In addition, some 25,000 Jews were brought from Germany, Austria and the present-day Czech Republic, of whom around 20,000 were killed.

    The Fate of the Remaining Jews. The Riga Ghetto was closed in 1943. Those Jews still alive and able to work were transferred to nearby concentration camps, the largest of which were located in Rīga (Mežaparks/Kaiserwald) and Dundaga. In 1944 most of the remaining Jews were transferred to Germany where some of them survived to the end of the war.
    I think that explained it.

  14. #14
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    I will let the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Latvia to explain it:



    I think that explained it.
    No country is without blood on their hands (not even you precious Greeks), let's just forget about what our grandfathers did okay? The Axis criminals are already presecuted.

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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Greve Armfelt View Post
    No country is without blood on their hands (not even you precious Greeks), let's just forget about what our grandfathers did okay? The Axis criminals are already presecuted.
    Excuse me? Was that an attempt at an ad hominem? What my ethnicity has to do with it? How is it pertinent to the issue? Go through my posts and find one instance that I did not castigated especially Greek crimes. And I want to remember what my grandfather did, if you don't mind.

    I replied to the poster that asked for an explanation of "Hitler's sideckics" that was posted by a third party. I replied with a quote from his own government. He had a historical query I gave a historical answer. If you cannot participate in a discussion, agression will not cover up for your lack of arguments.

    Next time you feel the need to troll me invent something better.
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; June 02, 2007 at 03:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    Excuse me? Was that an attempt at an ad hominem? What my ethnicity has to do with it? How is it pertinent to the issue? Go through my posts and find one instance that I did not castigated especially Greek crimes. And I want to remember what my grandfather did, if you don't mind.

    I replied to the poster that asked for an explanation of "Hitler's sideckics" that was posted by a third party. I replied with a quote from his own government. He had a historical query I gave a historical answer. If you cannot participate in a discussion, agression will not cover up for your lack of arguments.

    Next time you feel the need to troll me invent something better.
    Garbarsardar, why did you left out last three paragraphs from that article you posted, was there any special purpose for that?
    BTW Estlander isn't Latvian so it wasn't quote from his own government.

    Latvians Saving the Jews. The unprecedented, extensive and swift persecution and murder of Latvia's Jews evoked expressions of empathy. Such reactions, however, were officially condemned. Nevertheless, fellow citizens of Latvia saved more than 400 Jews. Several of them were punished by the Nazi authorities for harbouring Jews.


    Misrepresentations of Latvian Role in the Holocaust

    There was widespread killing of Jews by the local population without German involvement. There is no record of virulent anti-Semitism before the arrival of Nazi Germans. The Nazi German policy was to make it look like Latvians were spontaneously killing their own Jews; they co-opted and manipulated individual Latvians to do so in their stead. Jewish survivors, not knowing the command mechanism, oftentimes assumed that the Latvian collaborators were acting on their own. Soviet propaganda later found it convenient to continue the impression created by the Nazis as a means of intimidation and suppression. Eventually, accusations of Latvian complicity with the Nazis, most but not all of them unfounded, were used against leading exile Latvian figures.

    The Latvian Auxiliary Police Battalions and the Latvian Legion were involved in the Holocaust. The murder of Latvian Jews was basically completed by the end of 1941. The Schutzmannschaften Battalions were formed by the German authorities in late 1941 and 1942. There were two controversial Soviet trials against members of two of the battalions, which resulted in convictions. It is also known that two battalions were involved in guard duties at the Warsaw Ghetto. However, the "Latvian SS Volunteer Legion", as it was officially called despite the fact that most of the soldiers were conscripted, was founded by Hitler's decree of 10 February 1943. It included some of the front-line police battalions and eventually some members of the Arājs Commando, but the Legion's two divisions, manned basically by conscripts, were only involved in military combat actions. Latvian legionnaires taken prisoner in the West were considered illegal conscripts and not members of Hitler's criminal SS.
    Anyway this is totally offtopic.

  17. #17
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    If you cannot participate in a discussion, agression will not cover up for your lack of arguments.
    Yes because you bringing world war II up really added something constructive to this whole debate

  18. #18
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    [QUOTE=Estlander;1816083]
    Iron border controls? Source? And spying on citizens? Oh please, now your just making up lies.
    QUOTE]

    I suspect the person for some idiotic reason got Latvia confused with Belorus.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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  19. #19
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    I have a feeling that our dear Russian members will soon enter this thread and say; "'Cuz Latvia is a facist sttate!!!!11lol"

  20. #20
    Khan Kong's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Spanish arrested in Latvia for damaging the flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Greve Armfelt View Post
    I have a feeling that our dear Russian members will soon enter this thread and say; "'Cuz Latvia is a facist sttate!!!!11lol"
    No, we won't say this. We have also such strict law about Russian symbols.



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