Scandinavia is not socialist

[darius]

I read the socialists thread and I was suprised to see how many people cite Scandinavia as an example of successfull socialist economies considering that Scandinavia is nowhere near socialism.
I'll talk about Sweden as it is where I live. Admidetly we do have a welfare state but so does all of western Europe and ours isn't as bad as say France's.
Even if we do have a large public sector we also have a very vital private sector. Compared to Sweden's population we have a very large share of the largest companies in the world (IKEA, Ericsson, Volvo etc). Except for our very high income tax (top income tax of 60%) and our relatively inflexible labour market we have a very free economy.
If you're going to define Scandinavia as socialist you would have to redefine the concept of socialism.

I might also add that those parts of the economy that are rather socialized do not work very well. We have very long waiting times for health care (unless you go to a private hospital). We have a problem with unemployment as it is very expenisve to hire and fire. In spite of being on of the healthiest people in the world we have a very high rate of sick leave (might have something to do with the fact that you get 80% pay).

[Erik]

I read the socialists thread

And you still decided to create a new thread rather than post this there?

If you're going to define Scandinavia as socialist you would have to redefine the concept of socialism.

Or perhaps your own concept of socialism is flawed or simply out of date?

[darius]

And you still decided to create a new thread rather than post this there?

I don't believe the topic there was to discuss socialism in Scandinavia.

Or perhaps your own concept of socialism is flawed or simply out of date?

If a welfare state is the defintion of socialism then practically all of the industralized world would be considered socialistic, that is not a very practical defintion. Especially considering that many people still use it in the original marxist sense.

[Erik]

If a welfare state is the defintion of socialism then practically all of the industralized world would be considered socialistic, that is not a very practical defintion.

What else would you call them?
Capitalistic? - that would be much further off IMO.

Socialism is more an ideal than an economic system.
It can be implemented in many ways and to various degrees.

I'd say all modern Western countries have a mix between capitalism and socialism, with some countries leaning more to the socialist side and other more to the capitalist side.

Especially considering that many people still use it in the original marxist sense.

Like who? Fidel Castro?
Try listening to the various socialist parties in Europe instead.

[darius]

What else would you call them?
Capitalistic? - that would be much further off IMO.

Almost all of the swedish (or Scandinavian) economy operates on the basis of a free market (yes I know there's taxes etc. but the prices are set by the market).

Socialism is more an ideal than an economic system.
It can be implemented in many ways and to various degrees.

I'd say all modern Western countries have a mix between capitalism and socialism, with some countries leaning more to the socialist side and other more to the capitalist side.

I agree but Scandinavia is not leaning towards the socialist side.

Like who? Fidel Castro?
Try listening to the various socialist parties in Europe instead.

I am more talking about regular people using the word. But I might also inform you that the social democrats do not call themselves socialists.

[Erik]

Almost all of the swedish (or Scandinavian) economy operates on the basis of a free market (yes I know there's taxes etc. but the prices are set by the market).

i.e.: market socialism.

I am more talking about regular people using the word.

As am I.

But I might also inform you that the social democrats do not call themselves socialists.

They do in my country, as do their millions of followers.

[Freddie]

I read the socialists thread and I was suprised to see how many people cite Scandinavia as an example of successfull socialist economies considering that Scandinavia is nowhere near socialism.
I'll talk about Sweden as it is where I live. Admidetly we do have a welfare state but so does all of western Europe and ours isn't as bad as say France's.
Even if we do have a large public sector we also have a very vital private sector. Compared to Sweden's population we have a very large share of the largest companies in the world (IKEA, Ericsson, Volvo etc). Except for our very high income tax (top income tax of 60%) and our relatively inflexible labour market we have a very free economy.
If you're going to define Scandinavia as socialist you would have to redefine the concept of socialism.

I might also add that those parts of the economy that are rather socialized do not work very well. We have very long waiting times for health care (unless you go to a private hospital). We have a problem with unemployment as it is very expenisve to hire and fire. In spite of being on of the healthiest people in the world we have a very high rate of sick leave (might have something to do with the fact that you get 80% pay).

I think the Morden term for describing the system of government in Sweden is 'Social Democracy',

[wilpuri]

I think the Morden term for describing the system of government in Sweden is 'Social Democracy',

No, Social Democracy is a political current. The system of Government in Sweden is called "Parliamentary Democracy".

[Daneboy]

Well, in Denmark, specially in Copenhagen where I live, the economy is doing exellent. Allmost everyone has turned millionare, (I am nearly there) mostly due to housingprices and as a result we have a withnewed drive. Education and oppurtunity is the driving force. My point is that you can have a booming economy and wellfare at the same time. We have less than 100.000 unemployed of a population of 5,4 millions, and the wages are high, no matter what you do.

We have been in a 10-15 year long boom. Still wellfare system, a very generous one, but scandinavian wellfare politics combined with a european liberal (not the American kind of liberal) govermet for 8 years in a row has proven extremely effective.

[Nick_Since_1985]

Well, in Denmark, specially in Copenhagen where I live, the economy is doing exellent. Allmost everyone has turned millionare, (I am nearly there) mostly due to housingprices and as a result we have a withnewed drive. Education and oppurtunity is the driving force. My point is that you can have a booming economy and wellfare at the same time. We have less than 100.000 unemployed of a population of 5,4 millions, and the wages are high, no matter what you do.

We have been in a 10-15 year long boom. Still wellfare system, a very generous one, but scandinavian wellfare politics combined with a european liberal (not the American kind of liberal) govermet for 8 years in a row has proven extremely effective.

We'll done, that are some numbers other country's could be jealous about

[Daneboy]

yeahh...but how come other countries aren´t copying. It would be SOOO easy. It is all written down and tested. Out of govermental budget of 1.200 billion danis kroner the supplus is 90 billion and that is with a awesome wellfare system..We owe nothing any more.

It would be soooo easy to implement.

[Freddie]

Well, in Denmark, specially in Copenhagen where I live, the economy is doing exellent. Allmost everyone has turned millionare, (I am nearly there) mostly due to housingprices and as a result we have a withnewed drive. Education and oppurtunity is the driving force. My point is that you can have a booming economy and wellfare at the same time. We have less than 100.000 unemployed of a population of 5,4 millions, and the wages are high, no matter what you do.

I see the housing boom isn't exclusive to the UK, the reality though unless you sell you house and move to a small dwelling or have two properties (i.e. one to live and one as an investment) your not going to reap the benefits of high house prices. It’s good to hear that Demark is doing well considering it large neighbours (France and Germany) have been in doldrums for quite a few years.

As for Sweden’s conservative government I've heard they are fairly left wing compared to the conservatives of Italy, Spain and the UK.

[Romanman]

Well, in Denmark, specially in Copenhagen where I live, the economy is doing exellent. Allmost everyone has turned millionare, (I am nearly there) mostly due to housingprices and as a result we have a withnewed drive. Education and oppurtunity is the driving force. My point is that you can have a booming economy and wellfare at the same time. We have less than 100.000 unemployed of a population of 5,4 millions, and the wages are high, no matter what you do.

thats interesting but i'd like to see its system applied to a bigger populace do you know any other countries similar to it (my state virginia, has over 7 million residents) , as for welfare if you could convince me that it some how benifited me if i didn't need it, but i can't see this happaning in america because the people who need welfare are usually lazy as hell, not like the indiginous hard working people of denmark.

"just because something is socialist doesn't mean they have to be communist or not have any form of free market what so ever... "-Alkarin

it doesn't mean its communism (socialism without private property) however doesn't socialism (gov control of means of production) imply that their is no free market. righties tend to call everything lefties do socialist many o' times they are right but it appears that in scandanavia they are wrong,

for example a healthcare system with both private and government sectors is not socialist (i gues its socialisty) but a healthcare system with only government sectors is socialist

[Daneboy]

thats interesting but i'd like to see its system applied to a bigger populace do you know any other countries similar to it (my state virginia, has over 7 million residents) , as for welfare if you could convince me that it some how benifited me if i didn't need it, but i can't see this happaning in america because the people who need welfare are usually lazy as hell, not like the indiginous hard working people of denmark.

You might just need it one sweet day, and then you....just go to the doctor. No worries.. Everyone pays for it.

If you were poor or whatever, you still just went. It is not the first time I hear American dreading how expensive it will be.

Not any more than your private clinic is.

[Ragabash]

it doesn't mean its communism (socialism without private property) however doesn't socialism (gov control of means of production) imply that their is no free market. righties tend to call everything lefties do socialist many o' times they are right but it appears that in scandanavia they are wrong,

for example a healthcare system with both private and government sectors is not socialist (i gues its socialisty) but a healthcare system with only government sectors is socialist

Socialism in ideological level does not necessary mean that all social sectors must be state owned. In fact, after the 70's-80's pretty much all social democratic parties in Europe realised that fully state controlled markets simply doesn't work in modern world, if they ever even supported such economical model. Liberal socialism is more ideological than economical.

In social liberal environment people enjoy wide array of personal freedoms and rights, and where social programs are to guarantee and/or improve person's access to employment, healthcare, education, minimum wage, basic human rights, welfare et cetra regardless where they are born and to what social status/standard. Where lack of such rights for everyone is considered as a threat for personal liberty.

It does not matter are some parts of these services privatised or state controlled as long as the services are provided and function as supposed. It's the social services and rights that make the state socialistic, not how the economical model is to provide these rights and services. The government's job is to take control and direct these necessities when private sector fails to provide them on state level and so all have access to them.

The fact is that ultimately socialism is more ideological model than economical.

[Count of Montesano]

Well unfortunately Darius, the Scandinavian system is considered quite socialist by American standards.

In America, it's not enough to put in 40, 50, or even 70 hours of hard work and expect a decent wage and the most basic benefits. You also need to be in the right field, with the most lucrative pay often being found in frivolous or downright parasitic careers like NBA star, former gang murderer turned rapper, hedge fund trader, divorce/medical malpractice lawyer, or cosmetic surgeon.

A minimum wage worthy of the third world when you factor in cost of living and inflation is still seen by many as "an outdated socialist concept that's ruining the economy."

America's work ethic dictates you should never be sick, because many jobs either dock your vacation time (all 4 days of it) or you simply don't get paid for that day. Oh wait, in lots of jobs you'll just be fired for coming down with the flu.

[liuzg150181]

Well unfortunately Darius, the Scandinavian system is considered quite socialist by American standards.

In America, it's not enough to put in 40, 50, or even 70 hours of hard work and expect a decent wage and the most basic benefits. You also need to be in the right field, with the most lucrative pay often being found in frivolous or downright parasitic careers like NBA star, former gang murderer turned rapper, hedge fund trader, divorce/medical malpractice lawyer, or cosmetic surgeon.

A minimum wage worthy of the third world when you factor in cost of living and inflation is still seen by many as "an outdated socialist concept that's ruining the economy."

America's work ethic dictates you should never be sick, because many jobs either dock your vacation time (all 4 days of it) or you simply don't get paid for that day. Oh wait, in lots of jobs you'll just be fired for coming down with the flu.

So I presume Otto von Bismarck is considered a socialist statesman in United States?

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

The current government of Sweden is Conservative

http://www.moderaterna.se

[Daneboy]

And the danish even more right wing. Almost scary, shut down pusherstreet in Kristania, and you all heard about the "Muhammed drawings".. And the never gave way to pressure.

Imagine beeing a Dane back then..IT was scarry..

[Ma'ahes]

^ aka the school voucher system, right?

Anyways, the Scandinavian area has been quite the odd man out when it comes to economics in Europe....while East Germany has 15% unemployment, Denmark enjoys around 3.4% (going on last seen figure, not sure if too accurate atm). Prolly due to a more relaxed system of labor, but one could argue that the liberlaization of the market is kinda anti-socialist. Yes, there are different ways one can achieve socialism "in theory," but letting the "capitalist dogs" (bourgeoisie) trample over the poor proletariat in a free market doesn't seem too socialist to me.

I could also go into a rant about the ineffectiveness (overall) of subsidies and tax hikes done to target certain sectors of the economy, but that's another story I'm sure. Then again, that's more of a micro-econ thingy, not so much macro. It seems to work well enough anyways though, so go for it!