probably been asked before---

[Chaigidel]

i know setarcos had a whole post about how recoil happens in every generations "youth" movements--- do you think an atheist youth movement like the one occuring in europe right now will be recoiled upon in the next generation and become more religious---or is religion being cycled out slowly with each generation as we gain more tasty scientific knowledge

[Blau&Gruen]

There is no atheist youth movement in Europe right now. The atheist movement in fact happend in the twenties. I live in Europe, so if there was an atheist movement, I would have heart about.

[Silver Guard]

There is no large Atheist youth movement. Most youth just don't care anymore. One chav in my year went from belief to disbelief when I pointed out just one hipocricy in the bible. Its that simple, they simply don't care one way or another. Religous belief isn't being wiped out, its dying slowly.
Without something to recoil against there will be no recoil. There is no atheist movement at all, just a slowly growing proportion of people who don't believe. How do you counter that?

[Zenith Darksea]

Without something to recoil against there will be no recoil. There is no atheist movement at all, just a slowly growing proportion of people who don't believe. How do you counter that?

That's not entirely true. Take some countries such as Russia - since the fall of Communism (under which the country had been in the vast majority atheist), the numbers of atheists have been slashed dramatically, to the point where 60% of Russians identify themselves as Russian Orthodox Christians, 5% as Muslims, 1% as Protestants, and then various others. Atheists make up at most about 30% of the population, and that figure is still falling.

[Tom Paine]

And yet much of the reason for that, ZD, is that religion did not disappear, it just went underground; as in China, people were officially atheists but actually Orthodox (though in China its more Catholic).

The age of atheism is not recent. If we look at it, it began in the Enlightenment among those deists who went a little further, such as Hume; from revealed, to unrevealed, to no God. It was given further strength by Darwin's 19th century discoveries and Nietszche's philosophy which demonstrated a logic behind disbelief not previously there, and ever since, the idea of there not being a God has grown more and more popular as knowledge and learning have disseminated further and wider.

[Blau&Gruen]

If we look at it, it began in the Enlightenment among those deists who went a little further, such as Hume; from revealed, to unrevealed, to no God. It was given further strength by Darwin's 19th century discoveries and Nietszche's philosophy which demonstrated a logic behind disbelief not previously there, and ever since, the idea of there not being a God has grown more and more popular as knowledge and learning have disseminated further and wider.

And if we try to understand modern life, we come not around to consider the non-existence of a need for theistic explications of said life, most of the time.

[Silver Guard]

Exactly Zenith, in Russia there was a strong anti-relious movement, so provoked a recoil, in modern Europe there is none, so there will be no recoil action. Religion is not being quelled, it's not being hunted, it's dying of old age, a nice natural death

[Tom Paine]

I am unsure what you are trying to say there - the double negative has me a little confused as to your intent.

[Blau&Gruen]

I am unsure what you are trying to say there - the double negative has me a little confused as to your intent.

I have modern poems and some hebrew things in mind while writing.

[Zenith Darksea]

And yet much of the reason for that, ZD, is that religion did not disappear, it just went underground; as in China, people were officially atheists but actually Orthodox (though in China its more Catholic).

That's not true. During Stalin's early years the Church was suppressed, but after World War II the Orthodox Church was not underground. It still existed, although massively weakened. You'd have done better to point out that a lot of religious Russians fled Russia and formed the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, though even then their numbers were not great enough to demonstrate that atheism did not take a solid grip on Russia. You'll find that the argument that Russians were all secret Christians who came out into the open again is quite flawed. One of the ways in which you can tell this is the fact that they did not suddenly come out into the open - it has been a gradual process. What is more, as an Orthodox I have contact with a large number of Russian students who have come to stay here in Oxford, and practically all of them say that they knew virtually nothing about Christianity until long after the fall of the Soviet Union, and neither did their parents. Their grandparents might have done, but most of them were sent to their deaths by the Bolsheviks.

[Chaigidel]

there is one thing that atheism cant boast and its fanatical devotion for which people are willing to kill and be killed-- not to say that this is a good thing but to respond to the fact that europe is experiencing no recoil so to speak i think is countered by the radical muslim movement in many turkish and pakistani immigrants all through the west--- the anti religion of the west is viewed by radical muslims (or radical theists :O)it is percieved or the anti-islam of chrisitianity either way they consider us godless and there is no way on earth you can ever stop the idea or that movement no matter how much time passes unless you wipe out the religion... and the only way to wipe out the religion is wipe out the people and as stated before that just wont happen-- so to say one reason so many arab and north african immigrants are driven to religion is that non-religious behaviour characterizes the general population-- so you see there is a reaction.

[Blau&Gruen]

The religious hype of these days will pass bye one day. Because, if I would not know it, I could not distinguish already now among my friends, who has which background. If we drink a beer together in the pub, we are all secular anyway.

[Silver Guard]

there is one thing that atheism cant boast and its fanatical devotion for which people are willing to kill and be killed-- not to say that this is a good thing but to respond to the fact that europe is experiencing no recoil so to speak i think is countered by the radical muslim movement in many turkish and pakistani immigrants all through the west---

Yes, because the oh so radical atheist movement needs to be opposed by something... there can be no recoil when theres nothing to recoil against!

the anti religion of the west is viewed by radical muslims (or radical theists :O)it is percieved or the anti-islam of chrisitianity either way they consider us godless

Could you reword that? It makes no sense as it is, and I couldn't work it out

and there is no way on earth you can ever stop the idea or that movement no matter how much time passes unless you wipe out the religion... and the only way to wipe out the religion is wipe out the people and as stated before that just wont happen--

No you don't... It's called common sense, everyone has to see it eventualy. And think about it, everyone dies, we don't need to wipe out the people, nature will do it for us. And with every generation less religious then the last it won't take too long in wastern Europe.

so to say one reason so many arab and north african immigrants are driven to religion is that non-religious behaviour characterizes the general population-- so you see there is a reaction.

Sorry? That's rediculous, what non-religious behavior? What recoil? Arabs and Africans are religous because many of the aid workers are, and the missionaries, and their former colonists. They don't have the educations system we do, so it will take longer for these deeply ingrained religious beliefs to fade again.

[Chaigidel]

arabs and north africans feel isolated by the western european host country because they are so secular-- thus the poor and dispossesed are pushed further into extremism

setarc why do you have so much animosity towards me?-- its so silly to be mad at someone on the internerd.

you completely misunderstood what I was saying about fanatics-- and no you will never wipe fanatics out, they will always spring back up-- and those few who are dedicated to god will always cause huge problems

im not talking about a radical atheist movement --- I dont even know where you got that, probably just a fixation on something meaningless to try to back your points up ?

I was refering to the idea that religion could be removed eventually and "die a slow death"--- all im saying is there will always be religious people who will smack you witha bomb or demonstrations or whatever--- to the point that you cant just ignore them because they are dangerous-- I wasnt saying atheists are violent far from it--- it is the lack of will that atheists possess to do horrible things to other people, because they dont have a fanatical devotion to give justification for horrible crimes

im talking about the surge of islam in western europe not christianity--- Islam things that this world needs one religion and they will fight for that until the end , there will be no "slow death" to this faith , in fact they will shape your entire world for generations to come

so even if you remove yourself from god, the devoted bring you back in -- atheist or not religious people control the very movement of the world and there is no changing that

(tho admittedly I doubt the leaders of the islamic militant movement are even religious-- more likely they are conscious manipulators completely non religious in nature--like televagelists)

[Blau&Gruen]

Arabs and north africans feel isolated by the western european host country because they are so secular

Some feel that way. Though most, I know, are lucky to be here and do not have a problem with being secular muslims.

Islam things that this world needs one religion.

That is what all religions think. As all religions are equal under the law, it is irrelevant what one religion supposes.

[Chaigidel]

yeah honestly I wouldnt mind a one world government of some kind--- a religious one provides for a thicker cohesion but more corruption--- very difficult questions in the end.

[Blau&Gruen]

A religious gouvernment is not an option. Religious gouvernments are normally the most corrupt. Secularism is a precondition for true social cohesion.

[Chaigidel]

agreed a government should be secular-- yet one world religion would do to move us all forward--- or one world philosophy just some abstract thing to unite our minds along not only practical needs but even our hopes etc--- then humanity could posssibly work towards truly interesting things

[Blau&Gruen]

I agree.
Some already try to think ethical questions in an open world perspective, like the Indian philospher Amartya Sen, e.g. in the book "Identity and Violence: The Illusion of Destiny".
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Identity-Vio...0704335&sr=8-2