is doubt allowed with faith?

[Chaigidel]

Ive noticed many many discussions in which atheists or agnostics make the general admission that they could be wrong(though it is unlikely)

are any people of faith allowed such concilliatory approach to discussion?

is it allowed to say I firmly believe yet I acknowledge possibility?

or does faith rule out doubt by its very nature?

[Denny Crane!]

The beauty of buddhism, its encouraged.

[dannyboy]

Beauty? Perhaps if Beauty, along with truth (which is beautiful) is subjective.

[Blau&Gruen]

Job, Jeremia, Ecclesiastes, and Threni

[Chaigidel]

yes, but do people allow themselves both faith and doubt?--- we can leave religions that dont place faith on a pedestal out of this seneca however beautiful they are :O

is a christian allowed to doubt that jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of man and was both god and man?--- or does this doubt exclude his faith, and therefore rob him of salvation.

[Blau&Gruen]

yes, but do people allow themselves both faith and doubt?--- we can leave religions that dont place faith on a pedestal out of this seneca however beautiful they are :O

is a christian allowed to doubt that jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of man and was both god and man?--- or does this doubt exclude his faith, and therefore rob him of salvation.

You should ask a christian. I suppose, the answer was both can go hand in hand.

[Oldgamer]

Ive noticed many many discussions in which atheists or agnostics make the general admission that they could be wrong(though it is unlikely)

are any people of faith allowed such concilliatory approach to discussion?

is it allowed to say I firmly believe yet I acknowledge possibility?

or does faith rule out doubt by its very nature?

Chaigdel, doubt is the silent partner of faith. It's what makes the faith powerful, especially when the believer is plagued with hard times, financial troubles, health problems, and so on. He who says "I have faith, and no doubt" is lying to himself.

[Chaigidel]

yeah but still I just dont see any admissions from the religious-- it seems to be all or nothing , in most discussions, rarely if ever have i heard a poster of religious persuasion on this board acknowledge that god may not exist.

[Blau&Gruen]

The problem of the existence of god is philosophical, it is in that sense not known in faith. Theodizee is the problematic that comes with faith. "Why is there no consolation?", "Where is my comforter?"

[Lord Rahl]

yeah but still I just dont see any admissions from the religious-- it seems to be all or nothing , in most discussions, rarely if ever have i heard a poster of religious persuasion on this board acknowledge that god may not exist.

Well, you would think that a religious person on here, if answering questions about their faith, would most likely try to answer confidently. It only makes sense.

For me the doubt comes mostly from what I feel is right and what the institution of church tells me is right. Whenever I get to talk to someone at church (which is rare these days because I only go to church when I'm back with my family) I always ask questions. A bunch of them. I don't really consider it doubt so much as curiosity because I know the truth is out there. I just feel as if I must ask enough questions to get to know more so I can make my own decision.

[Gary88]

To have faith is to doubt, it is believing in something inspite of your doubts. such is the leap to faith.

[Blau&Gruen]

To have faith is to doubt, it is believing in something inspite of your doubts. such is the leap to faith.

It can even be more radical, beyond the ability to believe.

[mightyfenrir]

To have faith is to doubt, it is believing in something inspite of your doubts. such is the leap to faith.

I don't want to pick a fight or anything, but wasn't Thomas' doubting of the ressurection of christ the reason why he was chided for not having faith?

[Oldgamer]

I don't want to pick a fight or anything, but wasn't Thomas' doubting of the ressurection of christ the reason why he was chided for not having faith?

Actually, it was Jesus who said to Thomas (after St. Thomas had felt the wounds in Jesus' hands and His side), "Happy are you because you have seen. But I say to you that happier still are those who have not seen, but have still believed."

[mightyfenrir]

Actually, it was Jesus who said to Thomas (after St. Thomas had felt the wounds in Jesus' hands and His side), "Happy are you because you have seen. But I say to you that happier still are those who have not seen, but have still believed."

Well I'm glad that got cleared up... I haven't read the bible in forever and I can't endear myself to pick it up again 'cause it bores me terribly. I also haven't gone to church regularly in about 8 years. That was about the time that I decided I didn't like the way religions were set up and did that "discovering what I believe" thing that everyone says they're going to do.

[basics]

Mightyfenrir,

The incident with Thomas occurred prior to the Holy Ghost falling on the assembly so although chosen they all at that point were not converted, faith being given on regeneration. That was why the Lord said the words that He did referring to all those who would experience renewal without the pleasure of having been in His company.

[mightyfenrir]

Mightyfenrir,

The incident with Thomas occurred prior to the Holy Ghost falling on the assembly so although chosen they all at that point were not converted, faith being given on regeneration. That was why the Lord said the words that He did referring to all those who would experience renewal without the pleasure of having been in His company.

So I see now... maybe if I can bear to pick the bible up again I will, but like I said, I find it very boring. Kind of like I know I'll never read through the koran again because that was quite monotonous after a while. For now my bible and koran are "religions of japan in practice" and a few norse mythology books I own. I don't think I'll be a christian again anytime soon, I left that fold before high school. Perhaps I will read the bible again someday though.

[Chaigidel]

yes I know things as well yet I still admit I could be wrong because I have known before and been wrong--- even though I have no doubt about god existing I acknowledge that it could be possible-- can you also admit that god may not exist?

[Blau&Gruen]

Yes, you can. You then lend a wordgame from philosophy to express your sorrow.

[GershomPatmos]

Ive noticed many many discussions in which atheists or agnostics make the general admission that they could be wrong(though it is unlikely)

are any people of faith allowed such concilliatory approach to discussion?

is it allowed to say I firmly believe yet I acknowledge possibility?

or does faith rule out doubt by its very nature?

Well here is what the Christian scriptures say on it:

But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. [James 1:6-8]

The answer IMHO is yes and no. A person with faith will probably doubt from time to time, especially when his/her heart is "far from God" at that moment. Let me give you an example of a person who believed, then doubted in the Bible, then talk a little more about it:

And Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." So He said, "Come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!" And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" [Matthew 14:28-31]

This account begins to help discuss the root of doubt - fear. You see, the words for "believe" in Greek have a lot to do with "trust" as well, and I believe it carries over to our concept as well. When you "believe" someone - you're "trusting" that they are telling the truth (due to past experience, knowing the person, etc.). Fear (not in reference to reverence in this case - but moreso defined as "unbelief") goes against trust. When you say that you doubt someone or something - you're saying that you don't trust it, and yet - then you would try to say that you do "trust" it? It's a contradiction of terms, and you can begin to see why James stressed that this person is a "double-minded" person, or rather I believe more accurately - a "double-spirited" person. Double-spirited in that this person is attempting to have two conflicting "spirits" serving two conflicting "masters." As is so famously quoted by Yeshua: "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other...(Luke 16:13)" But I believe this also relates to a consistent (or "constant") belief and doubt moreso than singular acts in and by themselves. The act of believing is a continuous act...not a single event. "Doubt(s)" will arise from time to time, but the believing (trusting [in God]) will continue.

hope that helps some,
Gersh