Key tenet of Christianity.

[rez]

By the way, David's basic premises are that "Good people go to Heaven" and "Bad people go to Hell". But the basic premises of theism hold nothing to do with good people and bad people, and heaven or hell. The basic tenet of Christian theism is to believe in a single God.

- Oldgamer

This caught my eye but to post in the thread in which it was found would be off topic.

The above quote demonstrates the blindingly painful problem of Christianity. To say that good people and bad people aren't important in judging who is rewarded in the afterlife is utterly ridiculous if you want to try and claim that God is an all loving creature.

This deliciously Christian scenario plays out with morally upstanding atheists being tortured for ever and ever and ever and ever... aaaaaaaaaannnnnd ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever!

I find it impossible to see how any person can submit and pledge their lives to an all powerful and oh so all loving deity that does not care whatsoever about how morally or selflessly you live your life. The only thing this tyrant even considers is your undying loyalty...

Where is the love people? Where IS the love?

(sorry for the rather trite argument but im just off to bed)

[Chaigidel]

actually claiming god is an all loving creature excludes discussion about good and bad-- and I think an apocryphal text the gospel of Peter actually states that there is no sin that is not forgiven and that all will be lead to salvation even if they dont believe or they are evil men.

[Curtana]

actually claiming god is an all loving creature excludes discussion about good and bad-- and I think an apocryphal text the gospel of Peter actually states that there is no sin that is not forgiven and that all will be lead to salvation even if they dont believe or they are evil men.

The writer of the apocryphal text 'The Gospel of Peter' is also said to have written Revelations. The writing style is almost identical. Somewhere in Rev it says only 144,000 people will make it to heaven. 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel perhaps? So the original Christian God not only has it in for billions of morally sound atheists, pagans and heretics. He will very likely condemn you Christian gentiles to eternal damnation too. Not so loving now ay?

[Zenith Darksea]

I understand rez, I'm just off to bed as well. But I can still knock your argument over

Christianity does not believe that God consigns people to hell. Yes, that's correct, despite the impression that you might have got from Calvinist Protestantism.

I'd elaborate on what Oldgamer said. Christianity is about developing love for God. 'Heaven' is not specifically a physical space, but rather the experience of being united to God in love. 'Hell' likewise is not specifically a physical space, but rather the experience of having isolated oneself from God's love. As we say especially at Holy Communion, Christ is a burning fire, one that, if accepted by the individual, will purge you of your sins, or that, if rejected by the individual, will consume you.

The way in which I shall now develop this will probably be controversial, but I shall do so nonetheless. Man is an icon of God. As the OT says, God made man in his own image (the Greek Septuagint uses the word 'icon'). Thus we see that man naturally (on the whole) will incline towards certain, very basic, moral standards, such as social cohesion, because that is implanted in his nature. Many will have a more developed morality.

However, the aim of the Christian life is not to be moral. Anyone can be moral! Indeed, it is the least that is expected of us. No, it is to restore oneself to the status of a true icon of God, and that requires the acceptance of God's Grace through developing love for Him. If we accept God's Grace (something that naturally entails, but is not limited to, being a moral person), then we experience Heaven. If we reject it, then we experience hell. God still loves us even in hell, but we, having rejected Him, feel His love as burning, consuming fire.

We don't experience hell because we're not moral. We experience it because we don't love God. Likewise we don't experience heaven because we are moral. We experience it because we love God.

[Chaigidel]

well zenith from the way you describe it I will be happy in heaven or hell since I am within gods fire either way :O--good post

[Thanatos]

The only sin that is unforgivable is any sin against the Holy Spirit, for He is the holiest of the Trinity, being the Sanctifier and the holy and pure love between Father and Son.

[Chaigidel]

how does one sin against the holy spirit?

[Irishman]

how does one sin against the holy spirit?

Blasphemy. Denying the holy Ghost.

I love that the worst sin in Christianity is not killing 10 million people, it is not believing in God.

You hear that Atheists, we are wose than Hitler and Stalin!

Hmmmm.

[Thanatos]

how does one sin against the holy spirit?

By knowing the truth of the the Lord, but turning away from it anyway. Such as Satan, and Christians who know better but became atheists or any other religion anyway.

Blasphemy. Denying the holy Ghost.

I love that the worst sin in Christianity is not killing 10 million people, it is not believing in God.

You hear that Atheists, we are wose than Hitler and Stalin!

Hmmmm.

Actually, sinning against the Holy Spirit, pedophilia, and being apathetic towards the afterlife are the worst sins. Jesus said as much.

[Irishman]

Actually, sinning against the Holy Spirit, pedophilia, and being apathetic towards the afterlife are the worst sins. Jesus said as much.

Yes, but the only one which is unforgivable is Blasphemy. Which makes one think that it is worse than the others...

By knowing the truth of the the Lord, but turning away from it anyway. Such as Satan, and Christians who know better but became atheists or any other religion anyway.

Anyone who turns away or dismisses the existence of the holy spirit is considered to have sinned against the holy spirit.

[rez]

I understand rez, I'm just off to bed as well. But I can still knock your argument over

Unfortunately i was expecting this argument

Christianity does not believe that God consigns people to hell. Yes, that's correct, despite the impression that you might have got from Calvinist Protestantism.

Well Christianity is a broad term isn't it? I understand you are saying what you feel to be the real Christianity doesn't send people to hell, but not everyone believes what you believe. Despite how much better it might sound...

I'd elaborate on what Oldgamer said. Christianity is about developing love for God. 'Heaven' is not specifically a physical space, but rather the experience of being united to God in love. 'Hell' likewise is not specifically a physical space, but rather the experience of having isolated oneself from God's love. As we say especially at Holy Communion, Christ is a burning fire, one that, if accepted by the individual, will purge you of your sins, or that, if rejected by the individual, will consume you.

This is precisely the point i was getting at. Love for God / loyalty to the overlord is actually more important than living a good life. you have affirmed this here. It doesn't matter whether or not "Hell" is a physical space with a red devil and a pointy stick. All that matters is that those who believe are rewarded somehow and those who do not are punished somehow.

It is these basic movements that spit on the attempt to live a good and selfless life on earth.

The way in which I shall now develop this will probably be controversial, but I shall do so nonetheless. Man is an icon of God. As the OT says, God made man in his own image (the Greek Septuagint uses the word 'icon'). Thus we see that man naturally (on the whole) will incline towards certain, very basic, moral standards, such as social cohesion, because that is implanted in his nature. Many will have a more developed morality.

A pre defined sense of morality will not help anyone adhere to the codes he has set for himself. Life is not as simple as knowing what is good and then doing it.

However, the aim of the Christian life is not to be moral. Anyone can be moral! Indeed, it is the least that is expected of us. No, it is to restore oneself to the status of a true icon of God, and that requires the acceptance of God's Grace through developing love for Him. If we accept God's Grace (something that naturally entails, but is not limited to, being a moral person), then we experience Heaven. If we reject it, then we experience hell. God still loves us even in hell, but we, having rejected Him, feel His love as burning, consuming fire.

Again you delight in expounding on the very problem i highlighted. Christianity is not concerned with how just and virtuously you live your life. All it wants is loyalty to the King. God brutally punishes those who won't bow to him and he lavishly praises those who do. more and more it seems like this is his only criteria.

We don't experience hell because we're not moral. We experience it because we don't love God. Likewise we don't experience heaven because we are moral. We experience it because we love God.

This is precisely the problem.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well Christianity is a broad term isn't it?

I'm simply referring to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. If some people wish to delude themselves as to what they taught, then that's none of my business.

This is precisely the point i was getting at. Love for God / loyalty to the overlord is actually more important than living a good life.

You haven't quite grasped this. Firstly, who says what is 'good'? I'd say that humans have no authority for declaring something to be 'good', as it is a very subjective term, and while we all may have the same basic inclinations, definitions of 'goodness' beyond these are very subjective. God is the only one with the authority to say what is good.

Secondly, living a moral life is a necessary part of loving God. As such, you shouldn't put it in terms that imply that you can do one without the other - perfect morality can only be attained through loving God, and love for God must be attained in part through leading a moral life.

All that matters is that those who believe are rewarded somehow and those who do not are punished somehow.

As I said, the punishments are in effect self-inflicted.

It is these basic movements that spit on the attempt to live a good and selfless life on earth.

A pre defined sense of morality will not help anyone adhere to the codes he has set for himself. Life is not as simple as knowing what is good and then doing it.

I couldn't say it better myself. Nobody can be called 'selfless' unless they acknowledge and accept God.

I'd emphasise once more that it's not a carrot and stick system, not even as far as love is concerned - God is the creator of humans and it is a human's purpose to be one with God. If you rejects God, then one also rejects one's purpose, and this is hell.

[Sadreddine]

Secondly, living a moral life is a necessary part of loving God. As such, you shouldn't put it in terms that imply that you can do one without the other - perfect morality can only be attained through loving God, and love for God must be attained in part through leading a moral life.

Not at all. A human can love God as a creator by heart and still behave like a monster in earth, choosing to murder everyone that gets in his way and do not share his opinions. Hardly a "moral" lifestyle.

It is not enough to worship or believe to enter the "Garden". Instead, it is needed to live a righteous life. As God reveals in the Qur'an:

"It is not righteousness that you (simply) turn your faces towards east or west (in prayer); but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend wealth in charity, out of Love for Allah, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and to free slaves, to be steadfast in prayer and practise regular charity, to fulfill promises when promises are made, to exhibit fortitude and to have patience, in pain, suffering, and adversity, and in times of conflict. Such are the People of Truth, the God-Fearing!" (Qur'an, 2:177)

and:

"Let there be a community amongst you inviting to all that is good, and to command that which is just, and forbid that which is evil; and they shall be the successful." (Qur'an, 3:104)

And Prophet Muhammad (s) said: "If you guarantee me six things on your part I shall guarantee you Paradise: Speak the truth when you talk, keep a promise when you make it, when you are trusted with something fulfill your trust, avoid sexual immorality, lower your gaze (in modesty), and restrain your hands from injustice."

Therefore, "Believe in Christ your Lord and be saved (no matter what)" seems to me quite a selfish basis for theology. Very comfortable for the said believer, for sure.

[MasterAdnin]

This is one of my main problems with Christianity. In Islam it is said that if one is ignorant to Islam and if they live good lives, they can go to heaven, or so I am told by my Maulana's and Parents.

Salaam,
Adnan

[David Deas]

The problem is that if you claim every good person goes to Heaven anyhow, then there becomes no reason to become a Christian other than to inconvenience yourself with useless ritual. But if you claim only members of your religion will go to Heaven, then you demonize your religion.

[Tom Paine]

The atheist's wager, then, DD?

[removeduser_487563287433]

I thought it had something to do with a Jewish schitzophrenic?

[David Deas]

I'm typing from my cell phone here so bear with me.


You mean from an objective standpoint?

Historically we know three things about Yashua. The first is that he spoke of a nation called 'the rule of God' (sometimes less accurately refered to as "the Kingdom of God") comprised of those citizens who obeyed Yahweh's law, and were thus considered to be under 'the rule of God'. The second is that he spoke of new interpretation of the Torah. The third is that he never walked the Earth, and it is also self-evident that the inspiration for his character never went by the title of "Yashua" during any period; the etymology of the word "Yashua" indicates that it is far more of a title than a proper name.

We don't actually know anything else about Yashua, but what is important here are his teachings regarding Heaven, not as a physical place people go to after they die, but as a state of mind, or being. It is worth noting, however, that physical ressurection after death had been a part of their ancient culture a long time before Yashua ever came along, and whether that happened had always depended on the nature of the deceased individual. Obviously, if you were ressurected in the first place, Yashua would have taught that could only have meant that you were a person under the rule of God.

[rez]

I'm simply referring to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. If some people wish to delude themselves as to what they taught, then that's none of my business.

Well it would be worth remembering that not every barb is directed at your particular strain of Christianity.

You haven't quite grasped this. Firstly, who says what is 'good'? I'd say that humans have no authority for declaring something to be 'good', as it is a very subjective term, and while we all may have the same basic inclinations, definitions of 'goodness' beyond these are very subjective. God is the only one with the authority to say what is good.

Good can be described by some as the attempt at selflessness. Bad as the indulgence of Greed. Why should someone with no experience or even the capacity to understand social existence determine what we decide to be good and evil.

Why should someone who lived his life with the express intention of helping out others be condemned for immorality even after Jesus taught significant amounts on the importance of charity? Because the effort to be a good person according to your understanding of it is not relevant. Only loyalty is.

What you decide not to grasp is that there is no real reason to say that belief in God makes you a god person and rejection of him makes you bad. The closest thing to that are the tirade of accusations from the mighty king who is only perpetuating his own importance.

Secondly, living a moral life is a necessary part of loving God. As such, you shouldn't put it in terms that imply that you can do one without the other - perfect morality can only be attained through loving God, and love for God must be attained in part through leading a moral life.

You yourself put it in those terms where you say that if you don't love God, you aren't moral. When it comes down to the final cut, if you don't believe you will be punished. If you do believe and follow the teachings of God you will be saved. You've said this yourself and it paints a very clear picture.

You say it isn't a carrot and stick concept but what do the believer's recieve? And what do the non - believers get?

I understand completely the idea that morality is a part of loving God and that moral reletavism plays a large part in Christian theology. However its a fair stretch of the imagination to say that humanity has no capacity to decide what is right and wrong.

I never said that morality and faith are easily seperated, i merely decided not to cover that and focus on morality in Atheism.

couldn't say it better myself. Nobody can be called 'selfless' unless they acknowledge and accept God.

Thats hardly what i was saying, although your philosophy tends to demean any atempt to do anything good whatsoever in life if it has no religious backing.

I'd emphasise once more that it's not a carrot and stick system, not even as far as love is concerned - God is the creator of humans and it is a human's purpose to be one with God. If you rejects God, then one also rejects one's purpose, and this is hell.

To be one with God is a rather fancy way of saying you will bow down and praise him for all eternity. That is your great purpose, unswerving loyalty. There is no great quest to attain morality and justice in life, simply a grinding mill stone turning you towards death and further everlasting submission.

[Curtana]

And lo the scales were removed from my eyes and the holy spirit (Jack Daniels) spoke unto me and said:
The time is right to post this link,
Click me and be saved!
lol