Search for purpose, purposeless?

[Silver Guard]

The obsession with purpose was brought to me whilst watching the finale of this season's lost, the reaction of Sawyer.
For those who do not know the story, Sawyer's father killed himself and his wife, after loosing all his money to a con-man who slept with his wife. Sawyer sweared to kill the man, and made it his one sole purpose, to beat him at his own game.
Two episodes he found and killed him, and ever since lost all purpose. His wit was gone, his energy, his sarcastic confidence.

He had lost his purpose.

I don't quite understand such people, making one thing their only aim, their only reason to be. They become their aim, when it's done, they are empty, may as well be a carcass.

Man's search for purpose has led to such bizzare things as religion and ambition. But what fuels it? What makes man so determined to have anything beyond selfish need to survive as long as possible? Is it due to the fact that survival itself is simple enough to achieve in western civilisation. I don't see many third-world populances with any great purpose for themselves.

Humans are so obsessed with purpose that they even give purpose to things that they don't understand. For example thunder was once caused by thor's hammer in ancient scandinavia, the sun was odin's one eye ect. Even the growth of crops was attributed to various gods throughout the ancient world, and It didn't stop there.

Man has the egotistical belief, in the main part, that it is special, it is chosen. And more then that, it has segmented itself into different groups which each thing they're better and more favoured then the rest. Nope, dosn't stop there either, some deluded individuals think that they personaly are chosen above the others for a specific task in the name of someone they've never heard, seen, felt, tasted or even understand. Such people led such escapades as the comet suicides (groups of people killing themselves as a comet passed by so it'd take them to heaven) the suicide bombings of london and the twin towers. However, there is a flip-side, such exceptional cases as Marie Theresa and John Paul I (says a lot for the vatican that they murdered him after just 30 days as pope).

Why does man need a purpose? Why are we not content?

[Chaigidel]

because people want to be more than a non entity--- all of humanity will go extinct one day not if but when--- and everything we ever did will come to nothingness--- the search for purpose and the idea that we are somehow special is a way to fight off the fact that as individuals and as a species we face absolute oblivion

[Silver Guard]

So does every other species? Why can't we be happy chomping grass and fighting off hungry tigers like all the others? We're a pretty ****ed up species needing all the extra caring. I feel sorry for us needing the attention of an extra mother to tuck us in at night and make us feel special.
Reminds me of a recess quote (yes im sad)
"So this is how the earth revolves around the sun"
"Realy? My mummy told me the earth revolves around me!"

[Chaigidel]

because the other species exist in a state of being alone they do not contemplate the idea of death
the main reason we are not happy doing these things is because we are so successful we have so much time to apply to an enormous variety of knowledges and subjects--- another reason is people feel profound emotional attachments that they build themselves upon--- (the basis of ancestor worship? :O) so it is daunting for a man to admit to himself that he will never see nor experience those people again--- those people who are the only reason this confusing , terrifying, and wonderous experience is in anyway able to be put into an understandable perspective--- so to say you miss your grandmother if she meant a great deal and something in you says you will see them again(perhaps you will ive never been dead)--- but my personal belief even though I am an ardent theist--- I do not believe you retain any consciousness upon death nor will you ever see anyone you know or be what you are again-- but I would not denegrate people who wish to see death as something else because it really is a personal choice, whatever makes your short time more enjoyable I say by all means indulge.--(as long as you dont hurt anyone)

[Silver Guard]

You may as well believe it is personal choice whether to believe there are fairies at the end of my garden, its about as believable. The only difference is that I don't NEED that belief as a safty-blanket to hold long after ive grown past re-inacting spiderman

[Chaigidel]

but you will, without doubt--- because there are no Atheists in foxholes so to speak

All who truly face death not in a mental sense but a real sense will find themselves closer to god :o, by default----

all I must ask is why does it matter if there are no fairies at the end of your garden--- if it makes your existence more pleasurable and in such a peaceful fashion i cannot see the problem in developing ideas on what happens when you die.

Its not necessarily a need for a "safety-blanket" (though I agree it is a prospect which terrifies anyone)--most people have no question about what happens when they die, simply because they dont question things that have nothing to do with them-- and right or wrong you just wont care what you believed while alive..

and comparing death to reinacting spiderman is a little silly
several of my relatives have come to live with me as they died--- and it is a strange time, the main thing I think that was consistent was the constant visitations by "little people" small happy people who apparently entertained both my grandfather and grandmother in the months before they died of cancer-- also descriptions of vivid giant butterflies and glowing birds, all kinds of beautiful mystical images--- I remember when my grandfather died he looked at me and asked If the Bad Man was coming for him---people seem to have a child like look in there eyes before dying , literally the look in the eyes seems to change--- to just like a newborns-- I gave him the answer about the bad man and he soon died.

and trust me when you lie at the gates of death you will wonder about that same thing--- no matter who you are, because you feel death coming it is a prescence

it is said that when the poet Rumi died an angel appeared to him and said " I have come by divine command to retrieve that which the master had entrusted to thee"

knowing how people die, I almost dont think that is just a legend :O-- but either way a beautiful and reassuring sentiment.

--pps sorrry about not getting this into the ontological post :O

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

but you will, without doubt

Nonsense. Plenty of people face death without resorting to anything supernatural. Don't pretend you can read minds.

--- because there are no Atheists in foxholes so to speak

That's nonsense as well. Try these ones, for example.

[Silver Guard]

I almost died drowning in a well after I fell, cracking my head on piping on the way down, i was six, my grandma pulled me out, claiming Jesus gave her the strength to, I think it was more likely my feet on the piping.

Please don't lecture to me about death, my gradfather was killed by the NHS after they blotched a simple heart operation. I've experienced death, I've once stared it in the face lying in the water, not once have things seemed the least bit heavenly or even remotely divine. More a case of very murky and wet.

You never know, belief in fairies may be the basis of my existance, my life is based around providing them with food and entertainment (not knowing the hobo down the street is taking them). Would you begrudge me that? Most would, many would slap me to knock me out of my rather pathetic and immature beliefs. Why does religion get special status? Because theres too many people who believe in it! You wouldn't mess with a large group of wrestlers who believed in the fairies!

[Chaigidel]

you were 6 you barely even have a contemplation of yourself when your that age---

so you have never truly faced death --- and when you do you will know why people believe in things. im not trying to lecture you about death I was just sharing my experience with it-- I have been with people as they died I have faced death several times as an adult -- by face I mean i was fully convinced I was going to die without doubt, the first time I experienced shock and a sense of seperation from the world and myself --- the next few times It was something I was looking for believing my mind was at its most pure when I was on the edge of death--- I would bring myself to the edge simply to gain the wisdom found in death....
and no religion doesnt get special status from any other unintrusive belief

people are allowed to be furries and hippies and they arent beaten until there immature and pathetic beliefs are whipped out of them-- the basics of it is this

religion doesnt effect much and where it does our laws arent-- such as the very nonsecular mideast and indonesia for instance-

the only way you could say that a belief in an afterlife has caused problems at all is people like heavens gate, jim jones and all that but those are by far the minority of cases.

and no i would not begrudge you feeding a perfectly needing hobo with your fairie fixation--- in fact you would be doing a good rational thing with that just not know that it was what you were doing :o-- and no nobody would lock you up but family might tell you that its a hobo and not fairies

do you think religious or theistic people are in some way weak or flawed?

if so would you think it was a good thing to recondition those people to learn the "proper" way of thinking about things that dont matter?

basically why does it harm anyone to believe in life after death -- forgive my rantiness(of course the cases mentioned above :O)

[Silver Guard]

Actualy Earl I think I'd like to be a cow, no sadness, no need for love, no need for constant distraction, I could be happy with a field and a farmer who milks me every so often.

you were 6 you barely even have a contemplation of yourself when your that age---

Speak for yourself, by the age of 9 I had debated a Jehovah's witness out of my house, mainly because an angry 9 year old is quite a scary thing. At the age of six I was far more capable of understanding then many people who's minds have been cloaded by their overprotective religion. I could look at the sun and marvel at a giant ball of fire, and not need to be told it's Odin's eye looking down on us.

so you have never truly faced death --- and when you do you will know why people believe in things.

This is ridiculous, yes I have, you have just flippantly thrown it away to make more room for you to develop an obsolete argument.

im not trying to lecture you about death I was just sharing my experience with it-- I have been with people as they died I have faced death several times as an adult -- by face I mean i was fully convinced I was going to die without doubt, the first time I experienced shock and a sense of seperation from the world and myself --- the next few times It was something I was looking for believing my mind was at its most pure when I was on the edge of death--- I would bring myself to the edge simply to gain the wisdom found in death....

This is sounding very emo, much like "I cut myself to feel the thrill, the andreline" and about as admirable. Death dosn't bring wisdom, it brings home truth, its those who believe in another life who quite simply cannot deal with the truth

and no religion doesnt get special status from any other unintrusive belief

Actualy yes it does. If I stood in a street preaching of the great Ghanth and how we were brought to be my experimental aliens under his command, I'd likely hae rotten vegetables thrown at me. If I preached the holiness of Jesus (In any place but Jersey, where I'd still get rotten potatoes thrown at me) people would be coming for my blessing. If theres any more you need just ask.

people are allowed to be furries and hippies and they arent beaten until there immature and pathetic beliefs are whipped out of them-- the basics of it is this

Hippies are ridiculed and cast out even more then emo's nowadays. People are stereotyped and discarded from mainstream society for dressing the wrong way. This would not happen to religious people.

religion doesnt effect much and where it does our laws arent-- such as the very nonsecular mideast and indonesia for instance-

Oh so the money the church steals from the state, in the millions every year, does not effect us...yes...right... whatever you say mate

the only way you could say that a belief in an afterlife has caused problems at all is people like heavens gate, jim jones and all that but those are by far the minority of cases.

When people can't face blind reality and have to hide under their blanky or religion to escape that I wouldn't call it a good thing. I don't know what you call such action, I call it a problem

and no i would not begrudge you feeding a perfectly needing hobo with your fairie fixation--- in fact you would be doing a good rational thing with that just not know that it was what you were doing :o-- and no nobody would lock you up but family might tell you that its a hobo and not fairies

Ok, If I murder two people for their money, and end up allowing a hundred people to eat in china due to the wills the two of them wrote to a charity, have I done good? No! It is the concious, not unconcious actions which count. The asylum may lock me up.

do you think religious or theistic people are in some way weak or flawed?

Yes, both

if so would you think it was a good thing to recondition those people to learn the "proper" way of thinking about things that dont matter?

Depends what you mean by condition. If you mean burn their churches and put them in front of brainwashing videos then no. If you cut them off from their ridiculous money-making televangelists and give them a decent education on how they're being foolish, then yes.

basically why does it harm anyone to believe in life after death -- forgive my rantiness(of course the cases mentioned above :O)

Dosn't particuarily harm anyone. But neither does a paedophilic dance teacher selling pictures of children on the net. It dosn't harm anyone does it? But it's still against the law.

[Earl of Rochester]

Actualy Earl I think I'd like to be a cow, no sadness, no need for love, no need for constant distraction, I could be happy with a field and a farmer who milks me every so often.

But you can't have happiness, at least not real happiness. Unfortunately in English we only have one word for a very broad emotion, and as a cow you would only be able to perceive the most basic of form of it. All you have is existence, nothing more, nothing less.

[Last Roman]

Why does man need a purpose? Why are we not content?

Because humanity is always striving for something more. It's very much a double edged sword.

[Chaigidel]

I didnt say resorting to anything supernatural thuid--- i said that the idea of the supernatural will be more in your mind there than anywhere.

and I was just using the expression no atheists in foxholes--- there are always exceptions

my experiences with death and dying in my prescence is what has influenced my opinions on the matter. Have you faced Death with certainty in your life Thiu?

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

I didnt say resorting to anything supernatural thuid--- i said that the idea of the supernatural will be more in your mind there than anywhere.

Speak for yourself. I won't be wasting my last minutes thinking about stuff I don't believe in. If I get the luxury of contemplation (and don't die suddenly in an accident thinking "What the ... ?") I'll be thinking about my life and loved ones.

and I was just using the expression no atheists in foxholes--- there are always exceptions

Atheists tend to be people who have spent quite a bit of time considering what they believe and why. They are likely to be exceptions to that "rule".

my experiences with death and dying in my prescence is what has influenced my opinions on the matter. Have you faced Death with certainty in your life Thiu?

I've been confronted with it with a higher degree of probability than we face every day. A few years ago I spent a week or so waiting for a result on a test for cancer. And no, sorry to disappoint you, the prospect of death didn't change my thinking for a second.

[crazyj]

not everybody needs purpose. it depends on how much potential one has/is seen to have. then the pressure to find purpose to validate it is very strong.

[Earl of Rochester]

At the end of the day does the life of an individual cow matter? The answer is no, its insignificant, probably not even aware of its own existence.

Now do you want to be like a cow? I know I for one do not. Certainly while rather small on a cosmic scale everyone can have a huge purpose in their micro world which is what makes life so intriguing. We have the potential for so much, it would be a waste to merely be content.

[Chaigidel]

want doesnt really matter does it --- in the end we are as significant as cows or anything else--- purpose is a kind of animation that being said--- people who devote themselves to a purpose obviously get more done and occupy themselves well while they live out life


what its really about is occupying yourself until you die-- without purpose you are openly facing non-entity non-existence again the ontological anxiety post :O

[Earl of Rochester]

Want matters more than anything actually. We are all at base value machines that are programmed to get the most enjoyment out of life as possible. Having purpose to life is often one of the better ways to do this.

Now you may say, but still my purpose is insignificant, but that is not true. Subjectively it is significant, and why would you care about significance beyond your own subjective self?

[Chaigidel]

this is if you view the world objectively ---only then are we insignificant non entity already-- I agree completely want matters more than anything for drive ambition etc purpose :O but i was just saying that even if we wished we were important we wont be --- thats all I meant

I totally agree about the purpose being fully definable and executable by an individual with out any objective intrusion :O

[Earl of Rochester]

ut i was just saying that even if we wished we were important we wont be --- thats all I meant

but your still important in your own perspective and thats all that matters. Remember that most of what you know is most likely false, but that knowledge is still vital in your own perspective of things. Really we each live in our own worlds with our own specific rules. In my own world im pretty damn important and I can't see any reason to venture out in another 'dimension' so to speak.