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Thread: Abortion Rights MudPit

  1. #21

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_makoy View Post
    these r my personal views on abortion rights.

    my views, simply put, r that abortion should be legal for rape victums and for women who would be put in danger if they gave birth, after that, i see no point.

    my reasoning.

    Is it a person or not?: basically the defense that when in the first trimester the embryo is not a person, and there for can be killed. this is fine when arguing whether or not the embryo will feel pain, but the facts remain that it is a person, and if uninteruped, it will grow into a person.
    Its not a person, its not a citizen ,... Therefor until the legal age it has no rights .

    As for that it could become a person, well if your having sex with a condom, you are also preventing an egg and sperm from becoming a "person", same for no sex at all this is a flawed logic.


    Population Control: this i think i have the most beef with. we r getting overpopulated so we just start killing people? there r countless other forms of controception out there i just dont see y anyone should ever have to resort to killing people (no matter wat form they may be in) to control the population.
    I dont think there are many people using this as an argument for abortions.



    Unplanned: again, countless forms of controception out there that can be used very very effectivly, it would be much cheaper to get on the pill and use condoms, diaphrams, and so on all together rather then support a chind that u can not afford. there is also the very useful idea of putting them up for adoption. first off i am adopted, and im pretty happy that my birth mother didn't just have me sucked out.
    First people need to be educated in sex and forms of abortions, that is sadly lacking in the US, as a result you have a large(larger then in most other deveoloped nations) number of unwanted/unplanned pregnancys.

    Second: adoption, you still need to go trough the whole pregnancy with al downsides, costs and risks to the mother just for a child you will be putting up for adoption the minute its born?

    Third not everyone can afford birth control.



    womens choice: i understand that a women has a right to choose things about her body. but i hate to tell u, the embryo IS NOT HER BODY. there is absolutely no reason y an ordinary citizen, no matter who they r, should have the right to decide whether someone lives or dies. u leave that up to the judicial system.
    Actually its politics that make this decision as they are the ones making the laws the judge has to follow. And at that time it is her body, only later does it become independant from the mother.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Illegal, but unenforced in Germany? I'm german and can't really believe that. I thought it had laws similar to other european countries...

    Well, after having a look on wiki I say the map is BS. Abortion is not a crime in Germany. Abortion is allowed until the 12. week (with consulting) if the mother wants it (same with rape). If the health (mental too) of the mother is endangered is allowed without timelimit. The same with Austria, plus abortion without timelimit for fetal defects or mother under 14.

    If that map can't really get Europe right, it lost all of it's credibility.

    Edit: on the topic I'm with Cluny and Kythras. But since I'm not a woman I don't really care, not my problem
    Last edited by Exekutor; May 29, 2007 at 05:31 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    I dont think there are many people using this as an argument for abortions.
    China is. Or, rather, using it as an argument for sterilization.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    I think the man needs some say in whether a woman gets an abortion or not. It is his kid to, and he had an equal part in making it, so why should he have no say? If the woman really doesn't want to carry the child than I say a serogate mother is needed. Men and Women have a equal part in having a child, even though women like to disagree.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by NaptownKnight View Post
    I think the man needs some say in whether a woman gets an abortion or not. It is his kid to, and he had an equal part in making it, so why should he have no say? If the woman really doesn't want to carry the child than I say a serogate mother is needed. Men and Women have a equal part in having a child, even though women like to disagree.
    Men and women have an equal part in making a child. The 9 months after those sweaty seconds are very unequal.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    As a Christian my stance is obviously I disagree with abortion. However, I don't believe this should be forced upon people through the law. Religious values differ from social law, therefore I think people should have the freedom to make the decision themselves.

    It pains me whenever they do choose abortion, but I won't forcefully stop them. And I won't condemn them either.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    To be honest, every sperm is technically a potential individual, so the actual act of coitus, even if it does achieve contraception, is nevertheless wasting millions of potential people.

    That said, those who argue against abortion couldn't even give a **** about human life in general. Abortion has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with limiting the sexual freedoms of women and repressing the feminist movement in general.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    IMO they should leave it up to the individual states. I'm one to think that most things should be left up to their decision as different regions of the US have different cultures on what is acceptable.

    The main thing that needs to be regulated in that regard is the primary reason why states rights is attacked.... segregation. With abortion its not discrimination so I dont see how they MUST have it. Especially since people can travel probably a state or two over and get it, then maybe they will remember to use protection.
    You are quite correct. If it is the business of any government agency, leave it to the states. The Feds have no business in this.

    I for one think it should be legal, I mean, why should it be illegal? Some one give me a good reason why it shouldn't without dealing with the whole "its a life" ******** and I'll be glad to hear it. Now personally I am against it but not everyone lives to my strict moral standards.



  9. #29

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by Exekutor View Post
    Illegal, but unenforced in Germany? I'm german and can't really believe that. I thought it had laws similar to other european countries...

    Well, after having a look on wiki I say the map is BS. Abortion is not a crime in Germany. Abortion is allowed until the 12. week (with consulting) if the mother wants it (same with rape). If the health (mental too) of the mother is endangered is allowed without timelimit. The same with Austria, plus abortion without timelimit for fetal defects or mother under 14.
    I think the map might be correct but be misleading. I think the categorization of the Germany as defining it as illegal but tolerating it stems from a ruling by the federal constitutional court considering that the first article of German basic laws does not permit exceptions and thus must be uphold before any other considerations. Thus any abortion is technically illegal. The court's ruling however continues by suggesting that the state might establish punishments against it but the court suggests prevention instead because of the fundamental infringement on both involved parts.
    Thus technically the court ruling makes abortion illegal but at the same time the court said it doesn't think punishments are the right course of action which would fully explain why in Germany you have to get counsel before aborting whereas among other countries it is at one's own disgression.

    Not sure but overall it seems like a wellthoughtout compromise.
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Of course it is basically nonsense anyway. A woman can simply make an appointment with a clinic in an adjacent country with sane laws and make a day-trip out by road/ferry/no-frills plane to get the job done. This is what Irish women do in the UK. I very much doubt even a single Irishwoman is today prevented from getting an abortion by her country's weak-minded laws.

    The same would apply in the US for allowing each state to decide whether or not to allow abortions: It would be meaningless. How time-consuming a drive is it on an Interstate-route to reach a state-border from within the heart of even the largest of the US states? It would be farcical.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    In my opinion abortion should be permitted to all women that need it. Its their choice and there is little point is forcing a woman to have a child she doesn´t want to have or is unable to care for.

    Of course there is a gray area. To what time does one allow abortion. Right up to the moment of birth? Hardly, that would be murder. But then when? There is no one right answer. I think now abortion is allowed up until the 24th week, which sounds about right.

    There are countries that do not allow abortion and yes, a women could then go to a neighbouring country. But being dutch, we have (of course) or own solution. There is a boat that floats in international waters and it is equipped like an abortion clinic. Being Dutch territory, abortion is obviously permitted. http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/l...cle1701326.ece

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    my map is perfectly up to date
    the only potential problem is it was put together by the dutch....

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    @Ferrets54, your graphic contains a mistake. Abortion is legal in Germany*. The lawmaker ask women to consult a recognized advisory board before the intervention (operation). It has been illegal so far in Portugal, that is shown as legal on your map. Afaik, the only two west european countries that have no legal abortion are Ireland and Portugal. Poland is among the middel european countries the only one that has reintroduced or is reintroduceing a very restrictive legislation. But in Poland the watches run anyway a bit different in the moment (against the common sense of many Poles).

    *I am obviousely not the first to note it.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; May 29, 2007 at 03:14 PM.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    Its not a person, its not a citizen ,... Therefor until the legal age it has no rights .

    As for that it could become a person, well if your having sex with a condom, you are also preventing an egg and sperm from becoming a "person", same for no sex at all this is a flawed logic.



    I dont think there are many people using this as an argument for abortions.




    First people need to be educated in sex and forms of abortions, that is sadly lacking in the US, as a result you have a large(larger then in most other deveoloped nations) number of unwanted/unplanned pregnancys.

    Second: adoption, you still need to go trough the whole pregnancy with al downsides, costs and risks to the mother just for a child you will be putting up for adoption the minute its born?

    Third not everyone can afford birth control.




    Actually its politics that make this decision as they are the ones making the laws the judge has to follow. And at that time it is her body, only later does it become independant from the mother.
    first of all there is a big difference between a fertilized egg and an unfertilized egg. the fertilized egg is already on the path to becoming a human, while the unfertilized egg is not. there really is no flaw in that logic. after fertilization the developement process has begun, and therefor should be considered some form of life. and u really think that people below the age of 18 should have no rights? well if ur below the age of 18 i guess ill buy u into slavery and make u work on my farm.

    u also state that some people cant afford birth control. but yet they can afford an abortion? or afford to raise the baby? that is flawed logic, controception is not that expensive. and guess wat, if u cant afford to raise a baby, cant afford controception, dont know about non-controceptive birth control, and dont wanna give the baby up for adoption THEN DONT HAVE SEX!

    and it is pretty selfish to kill wat would normally form into a child just because u dont wanna go thru the pregnancy. u already dont want the child, the least u can do is alow it to live.

    and poisoner how is someone suppost to argue for allowing a live to be lived when they rn't allowed to reffer to it as a life? can u sell me a car with out ever telling me its a car?
    Last edited by Hunter Makoy; May 29, 2007 at 09:16 PM.
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  15. #35
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat View Post
    Men and women have an equal part in making a child. The 9 months after those sweaty seconds are very unequal.
    What if the man wants the child and the woman does not, should she be allowed to kill this man's son? I think not.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    That said, those who argue against abortion couldn't even give a **** about human life in general. Abortion has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with limiting the sexual freedoms of women and repressing the feminist movement in general.
    Whoa man! You pegged me, but you forgot that we also enjoy jailing Jews, Muslims, Gays, and people with beards!

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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by NaptownKnight View Post
    What if the man wants the child and the woman does not, should she be allowed to kill this man's son? I think not.
    i normally tend to disagree with ur views, but i definately agree with alot of ur views here. the child is just as much the mans as it is the womans, and it is just not right to classify it otherwise, i do not care who bares (sp?) the child, the child gets one chromazone from the mother, and one from the father. u could almost argue that the father has even more imput on the child since it is the father's chromazone that determins the sex of the baby.

    eventually it just comes to the point where each needs to show responsibility. the ultimate choice that the woman has in conssentual sex is whether or not to have it. if the woman is not prepared to handle a baby if by chance she becomes pregnant, then the woman should choose to not have sex. at some point women need to be acountable for their actions and responsibilities of procreation, just as men r.
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Abortion doesn't exactly scream responsibility :\.I guess it could work both ways *she's pregnant and wants to get rid of the soon to be child because she cant take care of it* but you could also look at it as *not using any protection and just aborting the child as an easy answer*.The abortion discussion shouldn't even exist IMO, if you don't want a child then use the proper protection in the fist place....simple as that.Abortions should only be needed for rape victims or if it's life threatening.If you didn't intend to have a child then why are you currently pregnant?

    I can use that same argument for curable AIDS(lol).If there is a cure then nobody cares about protection because there's a magical fix...how does that teach any form of responsibility?Then when the cure stops working they learn their lesson the hard way .The fact of the matter is *if you don't want a child then you shouldn't be pregnant in the first place, you should be taking all necessary actions to prevent it if you don't want it*.Abortions exist because of irresponsible people and I don't see why they should be given a free pass; it only makes them more irresponsible.Keep the child for the 9 months and put it up for adoption (or keep it, you may have a change of heart after a while)....learn from your mistakes and move on.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by NaptownKnight View Post
    What if the man wants the child and the woman does not, should she be allowed to kill this man's son? I think not.
    If the fool wishes to take the foetus off her hands and have HIS body grotesquely distorted by it, make sick by it, given muscular strains by it, rendered helpless by it, and then forced to undergo horrendous agony for hours by it, and to have his genitals stretched apart and quite possibly torn so as to require surgery afterward as well - then he is welcome to have the child. If he's not prepared to do that he should shut his ****ing mouth and go impregnate someone else who DOES want to have HIS baby.

    Seriously, the reason why this hypothetical woman wants to have an abortion is pretty obvious: Why would ANYONE want to have the baby of someone so ****ing stupid that they actually think like this? The finished product would be some kind of monstrous retard baby creature.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Yeah, but it hardly needs to be said how ****ed up Catholic countries are when it comes to these kind of things. I said developed world, no way are countries that have these archaic beliefs developed.
    Er...thanks.

    Personally I don't have particularly strong views on this issue. (Despite what my political profile says, must change that). But when in doubt I tend to lean in favour of freedom (regardless of my personal views on the matter). It strikes me as rather pointless for it to be illegal when anyone who wants an abortion simply travels to the UK (or ships just outside Irish territorial waters). Might as well make it legal and save those people the expense. But there's nothing to be done about it, we probably won't have another referendum on it for a while. Hard to predict whether views will change significantly in another generation, although I suspect they will.

    Oh, and for the record, I'm an atheist.

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