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Thread: Abortion Rights MudPit

  1. #1
    Hunter Makoy's Avatar We got 2 words for ya..
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    Default Abortion Rights MudPit

    these r my personal views on abortion rights.

    my views, simply put, r that abortion should be legal for rape victums and for women who would be put in danger if they gave birth, after that, i see no point.

    my reasoning.

    Is it a person or not?: basically the defense that when in the first trimester the embryo is not a person, and there for can be killed. this is fine when arguing whether or not the embryo will feel pain, but the facts remain that it is a person, and if uninteruped, it will grow into a person.

    Population Control: this i think i have the most beef with. we r getting overpopulated so we just start killing people? there r countless other forms of controception out there i just dont see y anyone should ever have to resort to killing people (no matter wat form they may be in) to control the population.

    Unplanned: again, countless forms of controception out there that can be used very very effectivly, it would be much cheaper to get on the pill and use condoms, diaphrams, and so on all together rather then support a chind that u can not afford. there is also the very useful idea of putting them up for adoption. first off i am adopted, and im pretty happy that my birth mother didn't just have me sucked out.

    womens choice: i understand that a women has a right to choose things about her body. but i hate to tell u, the embryo IS NOT HER BODY. there is absolutely no reason y an ordinary citizen, no matter who they r, should have the right to decide whether someone lives or dies. u leave that up to the judicial system.

    EDIT: i know this is a very touchy subject, so please try to keep this civil. dont get in here and flame if u have nothing useful to add. im sure the mods will be watching this one.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    IMO they should leave it up to the individual states. I'm one to think that most things should be left up to their decision as different regions of the US have different cultures on what is acceptable.

    The main thing that needs to be regulated in that regard is the primary reason why states rights is attacked.... segregation. With abortion its not discrimination so I dont see how they MUST have it. Especially since people can travel probably a state or two over and get it, then maybe they will remember to use protection.
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  3. #3
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Im pro choice but against partial birth unless the mothers health is at risk.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    lol partial birth... who comes up with these catchphrases?
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  5. #5
    enoch's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    overpopulation is the only enemy sums up my view
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  6. #6
    Hunter Makoy's Avatar We got 2 words for ya..
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    i believe they just ruled against partial birth abortions, or atleast the more strictly regulated it.

    i have much of an opinion on leaving it up to the states, i dont really see much a reason either way. of course even if they did do that, it would probbly be like the drinking age. state statute, but the fed. govt. puts a floor on it based on funding they give to the states. (states decide age, but loses alot of funding if under 21)

    EDIT: i posted this thread, went out and had a cigarette, and came back and already 4 posts, damn.
    Last edited by Hunter Makoy; May 28, 2007 at 10:17 PM.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Im pro-Japan style baby drop box.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    As a Christian (or rather future convert) I'm against abortion, but believe that it should not be restricted for moral reasons because not everyone subscribes to the same system of morals.
    I do believe it should be banned in Russia due to the country's massive population loss.





  9. #9

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Abortion should be available to all on demand, no questions asked.
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  10. #10
    Kythras's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluny the Scourge View Post
    Abortion should be available to all on demand, no questions asked.
    I concur....

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  11. #11
    Ferrets54's Avatar Suspended by Request
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Abortion debate is silly and only found in the US on mass out of the entire developed world. You need legal abortion because if you don't have it then you will get backstreet illegal abortions and women will die. Can we agree that women are alive? Good. Matter solved.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Well, it is a rather difficult and emotional topic so excuse me if I sound rude, I mainly try to point out some counterargumentative stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_makoy View Post
    Is it a person or not?: basically the defense that when in the first trimester the embryo is not a person, and there for can be killed. this is fine when arguing whether or not the embryo will feel pain, but the facts remain that it is a person, and if uninteruped, it will grow into a person.
    Every ejaculation can, under the right circumstances, lead to a person. Every woman's period means a possible person's birth has been wasted.
    The whole point is that a bunch of cells cannot be interpreted as a person. That's actually the whole point of argument. A person is often defined as a being capable of selfawareness.
    At the early stages of a pregnancy the embryo cell do not really have that kind of behaviour on them. Still the border is really problematic.

    Another interesting fact is that mother nature makes a great faction of fertilizations (aka quasi pregnancies) fail as there seems to be a very complex natural mechanism involved in determining if an organism should pursue a pregnancy or rather preserve those resources for a better time.
    It's really funny how many people go down to the way of nature although nature is a ruthless, genocidal, babykilling process that has no moral standards at all what.
    So even at the stage of fertilization it is not determined, yet, wether the body will decide to commit to said pregnancy and there seems to be an early phase at which a body can abort a pregnancy on its own accord. So if "nature" is not really commited to a pregnancy in this early phase it seems kind of logical that a human being (as opposed to animals a selfaware organism capable and intend to forge its own destiny) also has some say in the whole affair.

    Population Control: this i think i have the most beef with. we r getting overpopulated so we just start killing people? there r countless other forms of controception out there i just dont see y anyone should ever have to resort to killing people (no matter wat form they may be in) to control the population.
    The thing is the Catholic Church was also against contraception with the reasoning that we prevent god's will if we do it. However what's the difference of taking some form of contraception that prevents an otherwise likely pregnancy (during the fertile days of a woman) or abort a fertilized egg in the early stages.

    While I personal agree that this should be the primary way of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy (and to my knowledge to the vast majority of the people in my country that is the primary way for birth control) it doesn't change that it pretty much dumps all responsibility on the women while the men can roam free as they do not really have any serious repercussions in their life if the condom was faulty or something else went wrong.

    I also do not see how overpopulation is considered an argument in the discussion. Maybe India and China have this problem as they are poor and overpopulated, in the western World this is not the case.

    Unplanned: again, countless forms of controception out there that can be used very very effectivly, it would be much cheaper to get on the pill and use condoms, diaphrams, and so on all together rather then support a chind that u can not afford. there is also the very useful idea of putting them up for adoption. first off i am adopted, and im pretty happy that my birth mother didn't just have me sucked out.
    Contraception is also the main way most people do it. Adoption or abortion is a choice only necessary when above failed for whatever reason and the child was not planned. The fundamental problem with adoption again is that the woman is nevertheless thrown out of her life planning for several months. Again, some women do that rather than abortion, the thing is wether it's anyone's right to limit a woman's choice how to go about the problem of an unexpected pregnancy (or more precisely how much one can limit this right).

    womens choice: i understand that a women has a right to choose things about her body. but i hate to tell u, the embryo IS NOT HER BODY. there is absolutely no reason y an ordinary citizen, no matter who they r, should have the right to decide whether someone lives or dies. u leave that up to the judicial system.
    I think that's the whole point of dispute. Of course the late embryo is a quasi self-sufficient organism that only depends on nutritions from the mother to survive. The early embryo is however just a bunch of cells that is in itself not very remarkable if we wouldn't know it would grow into said selfsufficient lifeform.


    Ultimately I believe that most of these discussion often get caught in the fundamental misconception that most women who are proabortion are babymurdering serialkillers when the main aspect of abortion is to allow an option to women when a pregnancy occurs at a time not of her choosing.

    In my eyes to assure selfdetermination and equality for both genders it is necessary that pregnancies are a choice, not the "Hand of God" kind of event created by some accident. At the same time obviously there has to be some restriction be put in place to protect the rights of a baby.
    I however believe that the most common regulation that abortion is legal in the first trimester and many forms of contraception are available is already a very wellbalanced approach to go about it.
    I simply don't think any normal person would take deciding on an abortion lightly, thus, esspecially as I am a man who has not this risk of having his life being turnt upside down, I rather leave that decision to the people who are facing this choice rather than making some arbitrary stand on something that doesn't affect me.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Abortion debate is silly and only found in the US on mass out of the entire developed world. You need legal abortion because if you don't have it then you will get backstreet illegal abortions and women will die. Can we agree that women are alive? Good. Matter solved.
    I'm 100% pro choice like american say, but dont believe the debate is only found in the US.
    In europe, Chyprus, Malta, Eire all refuse aborption whatever the case. (but in Chyprus, autorities close their eyes and never condemn a doctor or women).
    In Portugal, Poland and Spain aborption is legal only in case of rape, incest or danger for the women's life.(but in spain, there is also a notion of psychological danger for the women that is used to abort, so it allows technicaly non-medical abortion.)
    So the debate still exist.
    In france, where abortion is legal since 74 we still have bigots that try to change the law and make "commando" actions in hospitals that make abortions. (and is suppose its the case in other countries where it is legal).
    The fact is that even if its legal, a lot of doctors (2 thirds actually) refuse to make it.
    In people's mind, it was seen as a liberty, but its more and more becomming just a tolerance.
    Oh, and since our elections, the leader of the anti abortion and homophobic movement (for whatever reason, there is often a link) is now a minister ...

    The debate still exists.
    Its not because its legal today in some countries that it will stay that way

  14. #14
    Ferrets54's Avatar Suspended by Request
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by zerathule View Post
    I'm 100% pro choice like american say, but dont believe the debate is only found in the US.
    In europe, Chyprus, Malta, Eire all refuse aborption whatever the case. (but in Chyprus, autorities close their eyes and never condemn a doctor or women).
    In Portugal, Poland and Spain aborption is legal only in case of rape, incest or danger for the women's life.(but in spain, there is also a notion of psychological danger for the women that is used to abort, so it allows technicaly non-medical abortion.)
    So the debate still exist.
    In france, where abortion is legal since 74 we still have bigots that try to change the law and make "commando" actions in hospitals that make abortions. (and is suppose its the case in other countries where it is legal).
    The fact is that even if its legal, a lot of doctors (2 thirds actually) refuse to make it.
    In people's mind, it was seen as a liberty, but its more and more becomming just a tolerance.
    Oh, and since our elections, the leader of the anti abortion and homophobic movement (for whatever reason, there is often a link) is now a minister ...

    The debate still exists.
    Its not because its legal today in some countries that it will stay that way
    Yeah, but it hardly needs to be said how ****ed up Catholic countries are when it comes to these kind of things. I said developed world, no way are countries that have these archaic beliefs developed.

  15. #15
    enoch's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    the catholic church is still vehemently against abortion, abortion is illegal in the majority of africa and south/central america or basically illegal, and most muslim countries as well.


    RED Abortion illegal in all circumstances or permitted only to save a woman's life. PINK Abortion legally permitted only to save a woman's life or protect her physical health. YELLOW Abortion legally permitted only to protect mental health. BLUE Abortion legally permitted on socioeconomic grounds WHITE Abortion on request

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  16. #16
    Kythras's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    When is that map from, because I'm fairly certain that Australia should be white...

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    Ferrets54's Avatar Suspended by Request
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit


  18. #18
    Kythras's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Right...

    That makes more sense, I'm pretty use it's available on demand in New South Wales (my state), who knows what goes on in Boganland (everywhere else)...

    Would being 13 qualify for "socioeconomic factors" do you think?

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  19. #19
    Ferrets54's Avatar Suspended by Request
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    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Without a doubt.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Abortion Rights MudPit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Yeah, but it hardly needs to be said how ****ed up Catholic countries are when it comes to these kind of things. I said developed world, no way are countries that have these archaic beliefs developed.
    I guess we dont have the same definition of "Developped".
    Is Eire under developped ? Malta ? Chyprus ?
    They surely are "****ed up Catholic countries ", but not underdevelopped ...
    Are you sure about your map's data ? Because from my sources (french so not usefull for this discussion) UK has one of the most liberal laws on abortion (with Holland and Sueden).
    Oh and how come all of the USA is "blue" as there are some states where it is illegal ? (or am i wrong ?).

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