Moscow Gay Pride Attacked

[Tom Paine]

Two West European MPs and a Russian gay rights leader have been arrested in Moscow, as violence broke out at a banned protest by gay rights activists.

Anti-homosexual protesters threw kicks, punches and eggs at the gay rights group, chanting "Moscow is not Sodom".

The gay rights demonstrators were trying to deliver a petition to the mayor of Moscow, demanding the right to stage public marches.

MPs from Germany and Italy were reportedly among those arrested.

Veteran British gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell was arrested, along with the leader of GayRussia, Nikolai Alexeyev.

Mr Tatchell was punched in the face before being detained.

Italian MEP Marco Capatto was kicked by an anti-gay rights protester and then arrested when he demanded police protection.

Source

Hm... what do our Russians think of this step back towards the Dark Ages, then?

[mightyfenrir]

Source

Hm... what do our Russians think of this step back towards the Dark Ages, then?

Sadly that crap happens world over still. It's funny how it was commonplace in the ancient world at one point and now it's only acceptable when Tatu's making an album cover or Britney Spears and Madonna are making a grabfest on tv or when we're watching women in porn. I wish I could be amazed... but sadly I'm not.

[RusskiSoldat]

No really, what the hell do you expect?
If we let these people march, Putin would have to mobilize the army just to keep the skinheads and religious extremists from tearing them to shreds, and that would definitely not be worth the expense.
The parade was banned for their own safety.

[Cluny the Scourge]

If we let these people march, Putin would have to mobilize the army just to keep the skinheads and religious extremists from tearing them to shreds, and that would definitely not be worth the expense.

Which is just another way of saying that the skinheads and religious extremists now control Russia by default, not people seeking to protest for protection of their political rights.

[twp127]

No really, what the hell do you expect?
If we let these people march, Putin would have to mobilize the army just to keep the skinheads and religious extremists from tearing them to shreds, and that would definitely not be worth the expense.
The parade was banned for their own safety.

DO you call that a democracy? (swearing alot here!!)

Get your as in gear and help minorities.

[enoch]

Charities deal with too much money and too many people to avoid political agendas. The act of choosing a cause and guidelines in itself is a potent political statement.

Except the BPS doesn't have a cause, ergo in the end your understanding of its nature is inaccurate. Charities can perfectly well be apolitical - you simply seem to want to discredit research, independantly verified at that, without actually having an argument against the research itself. Have you nothing but ad hominems?

as you can see, we have fundamentally different views concerning the nature of reality

I think all people have bias and agenda, so all of the works of people have many biases and agendas being pursued and played out within them.

Independent research is a tool, but it is as subject to political agenda as the rest, thus there really is no such thing as independent research in the ideal form many visualize it to be.

Nothing in my post was an ad hominem, and I have stated on numerous occasions that I think ad hominems based on an argumentative point are not only pertinent, but are irresponsible to not consider and inform others of.

Source is a key part of reason, as is logic -
make new friends but keep the old, one is silver and the other gold.....

[Cluny the Scourge]

Oho - demand protection from we policemen, eh, you Italian feely-wopper? Here's a taste of truncheon for you, Russian style!

[RusskiSoldat]

Who said anything about a truncheon?
He was arrested for being at an illegal parade.
It's not like this was a huge secret either, the illegality of this was known for months.
If events like this were legalized, they would attract huge crowds of both gays and, consequentially, the far right.
Moscow is just fine without an uprising in the streets.

[Tom Paine]

Well put. -

Russia is no place for a gay parade. The majority is very much opposed to it and the government would not want to upset the the majority.
If you want to be gay, be gay at home.

And if I want gay rights, how can I get those, hm? Oh, look. I clearly can't. Well that doesn't matter - I can be gay at home, right? Hm...

Who said anything about a truncheon?
He was arrested for being at an illegal parade.
It's not like this was a huge secret either, the illegality of this was known for months.
If events like this were legalized, they would attract huge crowds of both gays and, consequentially, the far right.
Moscow is just fine without an uprising in the streets.

He was also assaulted, and others were too. Guess what? Those who actually did the assaults received no punishment. Parading for human rights for a group is clearly more illegal and far, far worse than actively attacking someone! Hm...

[Kiljan Arslan]

Your a homophobe and you know it My County is always right Russian.

[Marku]

no, i got gay/bi friends. i dont agree with the use of parades for anything sex-related. thats all. especially this one that was so asking for violence in a place like russia.

[Farnan]

Mobilize the ****ing Army to protect them if need be. You Russians need to know violence is not the way to deal with those whose opinions don't match yours.

Anyways you don't need to mobilize the Army, just mobilize a few mortar sections and launch CS gas into the skinhead ranks that try to fight and have police give physical protection. They won't be in any mood to fight with CS gas entering their lungs and eyes, trust me on that.

[Serious Spamurai]

You Russians need to know violence is not the way to deal with those whose opinions don't match yours.

You think they'll learn, have a look at the Russian parliament:

[RusskiSoldat]

Actually the reason given was that the mayor didn't want any unclean fag marches in the capital. If police could arrest te marchers, they could have arrested the assaulters.

The mayor can give any reason he wants.
Also, let's try this again: who is safer to arrest (both from a political and practical point of view)
1) peaceful but still illegal protesters
2) armed religious extremists and Nazis who are present there legally

Your a homophobe and you know it My County is always right Russian.

I'm not sure if that was a joke or not (or even if it was a coherent phrase).

The Russians can keep Tatchell.

No thank you.

The Russians can keep a prominent campaigner for equal rights? I'd go with that - he might make them more progressive than us in the end.

That would end with me making a thread along the lines of "thank God he got 15 years in Siberia" a week after his stay started.

One of the reasons the Nazi Party was able to flourish 1919-1933 was that the police, courts and other officials were sympathetic to them - they accepted the Nazi line that the SA bustin' Red's heads was the best way to keep the Communists down. Nazi marches permitted when Communist marches were not. The cops overlooked SA outrages. When Hitler's attempt to overthrow the government of Bavaria was broken the whole court applauded his defence-speech, the judge gave him a trivial sentence, then the prison-officers at Landsberg made sure he lived in comfort, safety and close communication with his Party outside.

Why shouldn't it be alarming that Russian authorities are doing the same for the Far-Right because they are ready to put down gays, immigrants and other enemies of the pure-blooded Rus? Blood, land, glory, purity. That is the vision of the new Russia.

As soon as the next Great Depression hits, I'll start worrying.
Barring that, everything will turn out fine.

I just saw some nasty video on the news showing some tough looking homosexual men got assaulted in the parade. What Im wondering is that as far as I know most Russians are either non-practicing Orthodox Christians or atheists, so I dont understand why would they object to homosexuality if they do not really have religious conviction or something like that?

Most Russians are certainly not atheists (your statistics are about 20 years out of date if you think so).
Ever since the church was rehabilitated in the late 1980s, most people became religious again.
As far as this march goes, notice that it was not a counterdemonstration of a million men (like over in Turkey for secularism) but a small one with a few gangs and a few zealots.

I'm pretty sure the majority of Russians are practicing their religion and are, in fact, deeply religious.
Maybe not so much in the big cities, but surely in the villages.

I'd say people in the cities are more religious than in the villages.
The villages remain pseudo communist.

You think they'll learn, have a look at the Russian parliament:

That session was about the Iraq war so the passion is not surprising.
The first guy accused the Communist led ethics committee of being prostitutes (because they didn't take action when someone criticized the president but took action when someone criticized the communists), and the guy later on is claiming that everyone is getting distracted from the real issue at hand (how to stop the war in Iraq from happening).

Besides, I think the people swearing were Zhirinovski's Liberal Democrats, so that kind of behavior is expected.

[Garbarsardar]

Any country that purports to be democratic should be able to preserve the right of its citizens to peacefully assemble and declare their ideas.

A country that fails to protect this right and fails to protect its citizens from violent attacks has some thinking to do.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Any country that purports to be democratic should be able to preserve the right of its citizens to peacefully assemble and declare their ideas.

A country that fails to protect this right and fails to protect its citizens from violent attacks has some thinking to do.

Quoted for truth. To blame the protestors for daring to try to take a petition to the Mayor of Moscow asking for the right to a full-scale march because thugs and pinheads might beat them up is simply bizarre.

It's the thugs and pinheads who are the problem, not peaceful protesters.

And Putin won't protect marchers for human rights because that might annoy the thugs and pinheads who vote for him? Gosh, doesn't that speak volumes about Putin and his government.

Let the rest of us in the civilised world know when Russia is finally going to decide to join us, RusskiSoldat. In the meantime, feel free to remain a backward no-where land.

[Erik]

Any country that purports to be democratic should be able to preserve the right of its citizens to peacefully assemble and declare their ideas.

Why?
Purports to be democratic means they only have a fake appearance of democracy, not actual democracy, right?
What's next? Russia having to allow opposition parties?

Let the rest of us in the civilised world know when Russia is finally going to decide to join us, RusskiSoldat. In the meantime, feel free to remain a backward no-where land.

Or maybe we in the "civilized" world should not have such high expectations of spreading our own personal ideals about democracy to Russia?
Or to most other countries in the world for that matter? (Afghanistan springs to mind)

We in the "civilized" world haven't been democratic for all that long either (just a few centuries, which is a short time if you think about it), why expect the entire world to fall in line with us overnight?
And why assume that Russia is best off under democracy, considering it's size and diversity?

Maybe you're confusing being civilized with being a smugly arrogant prick?

You really didn't look at the pictures - this was nothing akin to a Western pride. Nor was it even, really, a parade. It was a march, akin to the anti-Iraq marches, with the aim of presenting a petition to the Mayor of Moscow.

QFT.

People: please read what this is about before you make silly statements about gay pride and half-naked men in the streets....that has NOTHING to do with what is happening in Russia.

[Kythras]

The mayor can give any reason he wants.
Also, let's try this again: who is safer to arrest (both from a political and practical point of view)
1) peaceful but still illegal protesters
2) armed religious extremists and Nazis who are present there legally

But it isn't about who's safe to arrest, it's about who it's right to arrest. A Government's first responsibility is to protect its citizens, and protecting people from right-wing ****ers (sorry about the tortology), is much mroe important that "protecting" people's "morals" from "in-your-face" gays...

[RusskiSoldat]

Mobilize the ****ing Army to protect them if need be. You Russians need to know violence is not the way to deal with those whose opinions don't match yours.

So, we need to mobilize the army to start beating on the right wing because they don't respect the gays?
It is too dangerous for the government. It is run by a center right party which has far more backing from the churchgoer than from the homosexual, and the patriarch himself has supported a ban on marches.

Anyways you don't need to mobilize the Army, just mobilize a few mortar sections and launch CS gas into the skinhead ranks that try to fight and have police give physical protection. They won't be in any mood to fight with CS gas entering their lungs and eyes, trust me on that.

Yeah, the Russian army should start attacking its citizens.
That'll be great, both morally and politically.

No really, get a clue.
The homosexual movement in Russia is not nearly as advanced as that in Europe, whereas the church is very important.
Offending the church of practically all ethnic Russians would be suicide for Putin and his party, so there's no chance that anything will be done for next year's parade.
By arresting the illegal marchers, the government can at least get them out of harm's way (something they're not smart enough to do on their own).

[Farnan]

Yeah, the Russian army should start attacking its citizens.
That'll be great, both morally and politically.

Sorry I should have used the civilian word for CS Gas, and that is tear gas. Does that make sense?