Tsunetomo Yamamoto, Japanese Philosopher

**VoodooTengo** · May 26, 2007, 07:13 PM

Recently i was watching this very good Forrest Whittacker movie called Ghost Dog its about this black guy who lives in L.A, and he is an assassin, but he follows the way of the samurai, as laid out by this Samuri from the 17th century named Tsunetomo Yamamoto, in his book Hagakure. Anyway i was reading some of the excerpts of this book and there were some philisophical quotes in it which i thought were interesting.

"When we calmly think of death morning and evening and are in despair, We are able to gain freedom in the way of the Samurai. Only then can we fufil our duty without making mistakes in life"

"To hate injustice and stand on righteousness is a difficult thing. Furthermore, to think that being righteous is the best one can do and to do one's utmost to be righteous will, on the contrary, bring many mistakes"

"Thinking about things previously and then handling them lightly when the time comes is what this is all about"

"It is not good to settle into a set of opinions. It is a mistake to put forth effort and obtain some understanding and then stop at that"

"If one is but secure at the foundation, he will not be pained by departure from minor details or affairs that are contrary to expectation. But in the end, the details of a matter are important. The right and wrong of one's way of doing things are found in trivial matters"

My Personal Favorite" There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing else to pursue. Live being true to the single purpose of the moment"

"IT is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream"

"There is a saying of the elders' that goes, "Step from under the eaves and you're a dead man. Leave the gate and the enmy is waiting." This is not a matter of being careful. It is to consider oneself as dead beforehand"

Have any of you guys seen this movie? And what do you think of his quotes?

**The Good** · May 26, 2007, 10:51 PM

I have not seen the movie, but those quotes are quite profound. They are nice. My favourite quote of his is this one below:

Originally posted by Tsunetomo Yamamoto:
"There is a saying of the elders' that goes, "Step from under the eaves and you're a dead man. Leave the gate and the enmy is waiting." This is not a matter of being careful. It is to consider oneself as dead beforehand"

**Juggernaut** · May 27, 2007, 04:48 PM

Although the funny thing is, Yamamoto was totally unrecognized until his works was discovered in 19th century, and he never fought in a battle in his life.

**The Good** · May 27, 2007, 05:04 PM

Although the funny thing is, Yamamoto was totally unrecognized until his works was discovered in 19th century, and he never fought in a battle in his life.

O really? His philosophical statements make it seem like he did actually fight in battles......Hmm.

**VoodooTengo** · May 27, 2007, 06:53 PM

No he didnt fight in any battles, but i suspect he did kill people because he was a samurai. Also his philosophs are based mostly taken from people who he was friends with, who did fight and just compiled them into a book for the education of the samurai of his clan.

**Juggernaut** · May 27, 2007, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by VoodooTengo

No he didnt fight in any battles, but i suspect he did kill people because he was a samurai. Also his philosophs are based mostly taken from people who he was friends with, who did fight and just compiled them into a book for the education of the samurai of his clan.

Huh?
Saying "he must have killed people because he was a Samurai" would be like saying ""he must have killed people because he was a Knight" or "he must have killed people because he was a Roman Legionary", it's totally ridiculous.
Yamamoto was born in 1659, and the last time something you can call a battle happened in a peasant revolt in 1638.
The thing is, most of his "philosophy" was pretty much his own personal ideal with a heavy nostalgia to the warring states period of 16th century(which he did not live in), and it had little to do with actual Samurai's morality at that time(which was heavily influenced by Confucianism).

**VoodooTengo** · May 27, 2007, 08:32 PM

Samurai had the right to kill any peasant they pleased for any reason, and when insulted or if they felt insulted they often did, knights didnt have the right to do that, and i have no idea about legionairees. The katana isnt desigend for sustained combat btw, its designed to kill unarmed opponents in quick action, which is why it was so sharp and light, but could not have stood up to a longsword.

Also whenever the samurai got their sword, before they would issue it or use it they tested it on peasents to make sure it was sharp enough, by tying them to a post and chopping diagnally from their shoulder down to their hipbone and all the way through their torso, so that every samurai katana had proved it could killl someone. It is highly unlikely that he never killed someone.

**Juggernaut** · May 27, 2007, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by VoodooTengo

Samurai had the right to kill any peasant they pleased for any reason, and when insulted or if they felt insulted they often did, knights didnt have the right to do that, and i have no idea about legionairees. The katana isnt desigend for sustained combat btw, its designed to kill unarmed opponents in quick action, which is why it was so sharp and light, but could not have stood up to a longsword.

Also whenever the samurai got their sword, before they would issue it or use it they tested it on peasents to make sure it was sharp enough, by tying them to a post and chopping diagnally from their shoulder down to their hipbone and all the way through their torso, so that every samurai katana had proved it could killl someone. It is highly unlikely that he never killed someone.

Where the hell did you gained these horse*****????

You should read books written by actual historians, preferebly Japanese ones.
Believe me, you don't know what you are talking about.

**VoodooTengo** · May 27, 2007, 08:53 PM

I can assure you that those are facts about samurai, especially the killing peasants one and testing the swords.
Believe me you dont know what your talking about.

If i am wrong i would appreciate it if you could find 3 or 4 reputable sources that refute what i believe to be facts about the samurai.

**Juggernaut** · May 27, 2007, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by VoodooTengo

I can assure you that those are facts about samurai, especially the killing peasants one and testing the swords.
Believe me you dont know what your talking about.

If i am wrong i would appreciate it if you could find 3 or 4 reputable sources that refute what i believe to be facts about the samurai.

Ok, first, do you know the meaning of the words
:Kujikata-Osadamegaki
:Burei-Uchi
:Kirisute-Gomen
:Kogi-Otameshi-Goyo
:Tsuji-Giri
?
If not, you do not know anything about this subject.
Seriously, where and how did you gained those knowledge?

**VoodooTengo** · May 27, 2007, 09:29 PM

:Kujikata-Osadamegaki

Rulebook for Japanese burocrats, from after Tsunetomo Yamamoto's period

:Burei-Uchi

Samurai attacking the peasants for rudeness

:Kirisute-Gomen

The right of the samurai to kill a member of a lower class

:Kogi-Otameshi-Goyo

The executioner of the shogun

:Tsuji-Giri

Testing of new weapons, specifcally on human opponents

I've gained most of my knowledge of the samurai from my military history classes.

Do you really believe that Tsunetomo Yamamoto never killed someone, or that most samurai never killed people?????

**Juggernaut** · May 27, 2007, 09:34 PM

It looks like you do have some knowledge: please let me apologize.
The only time a Samurai was allowed to slay a commoner is when he felt his honor was deeply offended:this was a act of self defense because if can't protect your honor that would considered a cowardly act unsuitable for Samurai(Sido-Hukakugo).
WHile the practice existed long time before, the right was made clear in section 71 of Kujikata-Osadamegaki(the codex of law made in 1742).
However, this did not mean that he can kill any commoner he wanted.
Right after he slayed a commoner he must go to the office of police force(Bugyo-jyo) or his superior and confess the act, and a trail will be held to see if the slaying was legitimate.
If he didn't, he would be immidiatly punished.
In the trial, the samurai would need several witnesses to prove that he was indeed deeply offended, and if he couldn't prove his case he will be stripped off of his property, exiled or worse, force to kill himself for commiting a needless murder.
There is very few records of Burei-uchi actually happening, since not only the law of the Shogunate but the law of each Han put a heavy restriction on it and the it would be easier to just shut up and pretend nothing happened then go all the trouble of killing someone.
And I seriously don't understand where you got the idea of Samurais testing their swords on peasants.
It is true that there was a family who held a hereditary title called Kogi-Otameshi-Goyo(literally testers for the shogun's family) who tested new swords on the criminals sentenced to death, but only a fraction of swords in all Japan was tested like that.
Testing swords on commoners were called Tsuji-giri(literally road-slaying) and it was banned in all Japan by law in 1602, and it is true that despite the ban Tsuji-giri happened occasionaly, but if the perp was arrested, he would be executed.
So if some Samurai decided to kill a peasant to "test his sword" he would most likely be sentenced to death if discovered.
And wouldn't you think if every Samurai killed a peasant each time he gets a new sword, there would be no more peasants left?
Besides by mid Edo-jidai most Samurais were so pacified they no rarely practiced martial arts anymore and the thought of killing someone and making their hands dirty would not appeal at all.
Thats why they had Ronin family as the Kogi-Otameshi-Goyo.
Therefore the conclusion is, "Yamamoto mush have killed someone because he was a Samurai" is total nonsense.

**Captain Arrrgh!** · May 27, 2007, 09:39 PM

Some things about Tsunemoto. At his master's death, he wished to commit seppuku, but lived during at when honour-bound suicide was forbidden, also he himself never actually participated in a battle. A lot of his catchisms are taken from older sources and generally accepted ideals of Budo.
The Hagakure -Scattered with the Leaves- makes for interesting reading, and is educational to glean the samurai's mindset, especially in those waning years of their glory, but in this day and age it shouldn't be considered words to live by. I like Forest, though, quite talented.

**Juggernaut** · May 27, 2007, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh!

Some things about Tsunemoto. At his master's death, he wished to commit seppuku, but lived during at when honour-bound suicide was forbidden, also he himself never actually participated in a battle. A lot of his catchisms are taken from older sources and generally accepted ideals of Budo.
The Hagakure -Scattered with the Leaves- makes for interesting reading, and is educational to glean the samurai's mindset, especially in those waning years of their glory, but in this day and age it shouldn't be considered words to live by. I like Forest, though, quite talented.

I don't think Hagakure was the accepted morality of Bushido at that time:the book was banned in his Han for awhile for being heavily against the mainstream Confucianism Bushido.

**Captain Arrrgh!** · May 29, 2007, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by Juggernaut

I don't think Hagakure was the accepted morality of Bushido at that time:the book was banned in his Han for awhile for being heavily against the mainstream Confucianism Bushido.

I'll dig my copy up and read its preface again, but I think it wasn't banned for being against bushido, but rather for fanning the flames of bushido ideals in an age when a nation was attempting to modernize itself.

**Shaftoe** · May 27, 2007, 10:13 PM

Bearing in mind also, gents, that many of the modern interpretations of Samurai practices, codes, honour, and beliefs are taken in, and interpretated in, a twenty-first-century mindset. Most modern academics are no more capable of true interpretation of philosophy that is not laced with self-hate, than an even higher-functioning pile of chicken-dung would be.

**Chaigidel** · May 27, 2007, 10:27 PM

I highly recommend the Book of 5 Rings by miyamoto musashi and the Book of New Shadow by someone else :O----

but read the book of 5 rings it was written by one of the true sword saints of the japanese.-- it is more valuable philosophy than posturing like hagekure, also it describes the famous two sword technique !