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  1. #1
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    In the last stages of the revolution, Chavez has closed down his last real threat to power in the media, RCTV, the most popular channel in Venezuela. Having been born and raised in Venezuela, this really hits the heart. RCTV is inextricably tied to Venezuelan culture, for Venezuela has only three major channels and Venezuelan modern culture has been strongly tied to the soap-operas, comical shows, and news that were broadcasted daily in these three channels.

    In 2002, the three were blatantly anti-Chavez. Two of the three have since been subverted by Chavez' will and Chavez whims them according to how he sees fit. They have stayed away from politics ever since. RCTV, the last fortress of the opposition media against Chavez, will not have its liscence renewed by the government, and the channel's subsequent re-incarnation, TVES, will lie within the government's orbit, forbidding any criticism of the government or its president.

    This is the end of free press in Venezuela. The revolution is now over. All your base are belong to us.

    Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air
    Chavez says no other country has 'so much freedom of expression'

    CARACAS, Venezuela - The countdown has begun for Venezuela's oldest private television station. At midnight Sunday, Radio Caracas Television — the most widely watched channel — will be forced off the air after President Hugo Chavez's government decided not to renew its license.

    Talk show host Miguel Angel Rodriguez, whose program is a daily rant against Chavez, ended his Friday segment by blowing a kiss to the camera and saying defiantly: "There is no goodbye. It's 'see you later.'"

    The opposition plans street protests over the weekend to demand that RCTV be allowed to keep transmitting, while Chavez supporters are expected to hold their own demonstrations. The authorities tightened security Friday in Caracas, putting hundreds of police and National Guard troops along major avenues.

    Hundreds of university students chanted "No to the closing!" as they gathered in Caracas Friday for a march to Venezolana de Television — the main state-run channel. They said they were going to demand to use the state-run airwaves to criticize the RCTV decision.

    "People have to realize that we have a totalitarian president," said Maria Alecia Klemprer, a 25-year-old university student wearing a T-shirt reading: "Freedom of Expression S.O.S."

    Chavez defends the decision as a legal move to democratize the airwaves by reassigning RCTV's license to a public service channel. The government provided startup funding for the new channel, TVES, and says it will start broadcasting early Monday in some parts of the country.

    Chavez: No society freer
    In a speech on Friday that Venezuela's private TV channels were obliged to broadcast, Chavez rejected allegations that his decision threatened freedom of expression.

    "There's no country in the world where there is so much freedom of expression," he said. "The license expires at midnight on May 27, and it's not going to be renewed."

    Inside the studios of RCTV, meanwhile, the mood was somber yet defiant, with some employees wearing T-shirts reading "No to the closing."

    "There is a lot of uncertainty. It's very hard," said technician and 22-year RCTV veteran Alejandro Gonzalez Natera, who wiped away tears as he spoke.

    At least some of the station's roughly 2,500 employees will stay on, producing soap operas that are watched on other stations throughout Latin America.

    RCTV was founded in 1953 and broadcasts a mix of talk shows, sports, locally produced soap operas and an immensely popular comedy program called "Radio Rochela," which often pokes fun at Chavez. RCTV has regularly been the top channel in viewer ratings.

    Groups such as Human Rights Watch and Reporters Without Borders have called the government's move a flagrant effort to silence criticism, and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Thursday passed a resolution condemning it. It was sponsored by Republican Dick Lugar had bipartisan support, including from Democrats Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

    Chavez said the fact that only 65 of the European Parliament's 785 members participated in a vote condemning the government's decision showed the issue was of little interest, and added that Venezuela's "oligarchy has lost some money" lobbying for that resolution.

    Media background
    Chavez accuses RCTV and other opposition-aligned private media of supporting a failed 2002 coup against him. The channel has been accused of violating broadcast laws and showing programs with violence and sexual content that are morally degrading.

    RCTV's general manager, Marcel Granier, challenged the government's decision, but Venezuela's Supreme Court dismissed one legal challenge and declined to intervene in another, even as it has agreed to keep considering RCTV's appeal.

    While many Venezuelan journalists have taken to the streets in protest, others have sided with the government.

    Eleazar Diaz Rangel, editor of the newspaper Ultimas Noticias, argued that the "immense majority" of media organizations openly oppose the government.

    On television, however, pro-government channels are dominant. Aside from RCTV, Globovision is the only other major opposition-aligned channel, and it is not seen in all parts of the country. Two other channels that used to be staunchly anti-Chavez, Venevision and Televen, have recently toned down their coverage.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18868158/
    Last edited by Siblesz; May 26, 2007 at 10:59 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    And now, from the perspective of a source that's not part of the power-worshipping American Media...

    The government of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez chose not to renew the license of the audiovisual group Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV), which will expire May 28, 2007. This decision, which is completely legal, created a lively debate in the international press, which has become a mouthpiece for the Venezuelan opposition and immediately denounced a case of "censorship." [1]

    RCTV is a private group whose principal activity consists in denigrating the policies of the Bolivarian government. Chávez has accused repeatedly, and not without reason, the nation's four main TV channels (Globovisión, Televen, Venevisión and RCTV, which control about 90 percent of the market and enjoy a de-facto media monopoly) of carrying out a "psychological war" against his administration.

    For their part, those media have given overt proof of a hostility bordering on fanaticism toward the Venezuelan president, ever since he came to power in 1999. They have never stopped questioning the legitimacy of the government and casting doubt on the popular support he logically enjoys. The private media constantly invite to their programs oligarchic oppositionists and putschist military officers who proclaim subversion and the overthrow of the constitutional order. [2]

    Marcel Granier, president of the 1BC Group, which controls about 40 radio and TV channels nationwide and owns RCTV, denounced what he called a violation of the channel's rights. "This position is illegal, violates rights and attacks freedom of expression and human rights," he complained. Nevertheless, Venezuelan law stipulates that broadcast signals belong to the State, which has the right of concession, while the infrastructures, the materials and the sites of the channels are private property. [3]

    The Venezuelan government immediately responded to the accusations of RCTV's president: "Marcel Granier has devoted himself to stomping on the rights of the users [...] in the belief that he is above the rule of law, which renders him unqualified to operate an open-signal TV network." According to the government, Channel 2 will hereafter be the patrimony of the entire people, not just of small groups in "the media oligarchy." [4]

    But it is not RCTV's recalcitrant opposition that led Venezuelan authorities to decide not to renew the concession of the nation's oldest channel. The main reason is this: RCTV participated in the coup d'état against President Chávez on April 11, 2002. "The determining role of RCTV during the coup d'état of 2002 must be remembered," stressed William Lara, Minister of Communications and Information, who added that "that irresponsible attitude at RCTV has not changed." [5]

    RCTV's participation in the constitutional breakdown of April 2002 was so extensive that its production manager, Andrés Izarra, who opposed the coup, immediately resigned so as not to become an accomplice. Testifying before the National Assembly, Izarra stated that on the day of the coup and in the following days he received a formal order from Granier "to not broadcast any information about Chávez, his followers, ministers, or any other person who might be connected to him." [6]

    William Lara said the decision reached by the government is "an irreversible fact whose constitutional, legal and regulatory basis is solidly incontrovertible." The minister stressed that no danger threatens freedom of the press: "The increase in the number of radio and TV stations, newspapers, magazines, Internet pages and their diversity of political orientation is the best guarantee that Venezuelans will continue to enjoy a pluralistic information." [7]

    President Chávez stressed that RCTV did not meet the requirements "to receive anew its concession from a State that is serious, responsible and committed to its people." According to him, "good journalism and freedom of expression" were threatened by media such as RCTV. The channel's signal may be awarded to a group of community media, which will allow a democratization of the television spectrum and, above all, according to Chávez, "empower the people, give a power of communication to those who almost never have a voice." [8]

    The Venezuelan people accepted the news positively. It has never really forgiven the private media for their attempt to overthrow the president, who rose to power democratically and has received the people's trust in 12 consecutive elections and referenda. Most people unanimously condemned the attitude of the private TV stations that, instead of reporting Chávez's return to power on April 14, 2002, broadcast movies and cartoons uninterruptedly.

    According to Barbara Vecci, of the Committee of Users of the Communications Media (Cumeco), the signal "must be opened to cooperatives of independent journalists and national producers." To her, the private media "are muzzling freedom of expression," a feeling widely shared by the nation's citizens. [9]

    After strong pressure from Washington, the Organization of American States (OAS) sided with the media conglomerate. It criticized the decision of the Venezuelan government through its Secretary General, José Miguel Insulza, thus meddling in Venezuela's internal affairs and violating Article 2 of the OAS Charter. "The adoption of an administrative measure to shut down an information channel gives the impression of a kind of censorship against freedom of expression," the official declaration read. [10]

    The Venezuelan Foreign Minister condemned Secretary General Insulza's words and accused him of bowing to the demands and pressures of national and international sectors opposed to President Chávez. He demanded that Insulza show more respect toward the legitimate decision of the government and reproached the Secretary General for falsifying the reality in the RCTV case.

    "The Secretary General improperly criticizes a member country of the Organization of American States for fully exercising its proper rights and refusing to kowtow to the blackmail of the true enemies of freedom of expression, of the people's right to be accurately informed, and of democracy itself, among whom are the proprietors of that company, who have promoted vain attempts to overthrow a legitimate government, instigating people to hatred and violence and promoting economic sabotage," the minister said.

    "It is worrisome that the OAS Secretary General, instead of defending a legitimate and democratic government such as Venezuela's, echoed unfounded accusations from communications media that have obviously turned their backs on their social function by breaking journalistic ethics and attempting permanently against Venezuela's democratic institutions." [11]

    President Chávez also denounced the meddling. "Now he says that the Venezuelan government should not implement its decision to not renew RCTV's concession," he said, referring to Insulza. Chávez lamented the OAS's veiled threats, which included a warning that the decision would have "political implications."

    "A Secretary General who reaches that level should resign his post out of dignity. [...] I hope I can meet him in Managua [during the inauguration of President Daniel Ortega.] I would read him the riot act in front of all the presidents and the world," Chávez said, reminding everyone that Venezuela is a free and sovereign nation. [12]

    A sector of the ecclesiastical hierarchy linked to the opposition also criticized the government's decision. Chávez also responded to that criticism: "The State respects the Church; the Church should respect the State. I do not want to return to the days of confrontation with the Venezuelan bishops, but that's not up to me; it's up to the Venezuelan bishops." [13]

    The President took advantage of the occasion to emphasize the Church's contradictions. "How can we understand this Catholic hierarchy, which is incapable of criticizing the coup d'état in April 2002?" he asked. "They never criticized it or criticized what these channels did. They never criticized it. I never saw a single Venezuelan bishop criticize the coup d'état." [14]

    The accusation that the Bolivarian government tramples freedom of the press would bring a smile to the face of anyone who knows the Venezuelan reality and the pernicious role of the country's private media. Ever since Chávez came to power, only one channel has been shut down temporarily for political reasons. It was Channel 8 and it was shut down by the fascist junta responsible for the famous 47-hour coup d'état April 11-13, 2002, a shutdown that was warmly applauded at the time -- by RCTV.

    During the 2006 presidential campaign, Chávez launched the idea of submitting the renewal of concessions to private channels to a popular referendum. Instead of applauding this democratic initiative, the proposal seems to worry the owners of the commercial media, the international press and Washington. Do they perhaps fear popular will? In any democracy worthy of the name, isn't the population sovereign?

    The real question is not to wonder if the RCTV affair constitutes (or not) a case of censorship because, in view of the facts, that accusation lacks a foundation. The question that should have appeared on Page One of all the international media is the following: How is it possible that Globovisión, Televen, Venevisión and RCTV, all of which participated in the coup d'état against President Chávez, are still under the control of the putschists? What would happen to French channels TF1, Canal+ and M6, for example, if they openly supported the overthrow of President Jacques Chirac?
    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...m?ItemID=11970

    President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela has been the subject of many controversies. His critics often accuse him of laying the groundwork for dictatorship, despite the democratic credentials of his government. Chávez was democratically elected in 1998 and again in 2000 under a new constitution. He then won a recall election in 2004, which was certified by observers from the Carter Center and the Organization of American States. Chávez was re-elected last December by 63 percent of voters, a result again certified by international observers including the OAS and the European Union. Chávez has pledged to accelerate policies that have given poor Venezuelans vastly increased access to health care, education, and subsidized food, and in the last three and a half years of political stability, a remarkable 40 percent increase in the economy.

    Throughout this process of increasing voter and citizen participation and electoral democracy, the Venezuelan opposition and their allies in the U.S. press have told us that authoritarianism was just around the corner. They now say it has arrived. The immediate focus of their concern is the president's decision not to renew the broadcast license of a major television network that is openly opposed to the Chávez government. Their free speech concerns have been echoed by Human Rights Watch, Reporters without Borders, and the Committee to Protect Journalists. On the other hand, the vice-chair of the European Parliament's Freedom Commission, ruling out a resolution on the issue, has said the non-renewal has nothing to do with human rights.

    Here are the basic facts. Rádio Caracas Televisión (RCTV) is one of the biggest television networks in Venezuela. It airs news and entertainment programs. It is also openly opposed to the government, including by supporting a military coup that briefly ousted Chávez in 2002. (More information available on what Le Monde Diplomatique has called Venezuela's "hate media" here and here.) During the oil strike of 2002-2003, the station repeatedly called upon its viewers to come out into the street and help topple the government. As part of its continuing political campaign against the government, the station has also used false allegations, sometimes with gruesome and violent imagery, to convince its viewers that the government was responsible for such crimes as murders where there was no evidence of government involvement.

    According to a law enacted in 1987, the licenses given to RCTV and other stations to use the public airwaves expire on May 27. President Chávez has publicly declared that RCTV's license will not be renewed, citing its involvement in the coup. Although it will not be able to continue to use the public broadcast frequencies, the station will still be able to send its signal out over cable, satellite, and the Internet.

    The U.S. media, much of which has been unsuccessfully predicting dictatorship under Chávez for years, has used this case to make accusations of censorship and the end of press freedom in Venezuela.

    To understand the issue better, I decided to talk to the human rights and press freedom groups who have criticized the action.

    José Miguel Vivanco of Human Rights Watch clarified for me that "broadcasting companies in any country in the world, especially in democratic countries, are not entitled to renewal of their licenses. The lack of renewal of the contract, per se, is not a free speech issue. Just per se." A free speech issue arises if the non-renewal is to punish a certain editorial line.

    Still, Benoît Hervieu of Reporters Without Borders in Paris said that, while he could not be certain, he thought US and European governments would stop short of non-renewal despite RCTV's "support for the coup."

    "I think that there would be pressure to make a replacement at the head of the channel. But I don't think that they would not renew the concession. There is a risk in that story. There are 3000 employees at RCTV. So I don't think that even in a country like [the United States or France], a government would risk putting 3000 people in the streets," he said.

    Could it be that governments like Venezuela have the theoretical right not to renew a broadcast license, but that no responsible government would ever do it? In the United States, this may seem plausible, since broadcast licenses here seem to be forever. (Who could imagine life without ABC, CBS, or NBC?) Still, the government sometimes takes actions in other parts of the economy that result in a company going out of business.

    Actually, in other democratic countries, broadcast companies sometimes do not get their licenses renewed. For example, in Britain in 1992, in a process based in part on a subjective assessment of "quality of service," Thames Television lost its license after 24 years of service. Several British commentators speculated that the Thatcher government had influenced the result.

    So democracies do occasionally find reasons not to renew a license. So what about this case in particular: Would RCTV have had its license renewed in the United States or Europe?

    While the two US-based human rights advocates I spoke with declined to answer that question directly, they acknowledged that non-renewal would not be out of the question here.

    Vivanco said, "I don't know. The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) could decide that they're not going to renew, for instance, Fox News or MSNBC because they're in violation of the contract, according to the conditions of the contract. Normally you settle those things in court."

    Carlos Lauría of the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) spoke similarly: "I don't think you can translate what's going on there [in Venezuela] to the United States. That's a very difficult question. I mean, if RCTV had violated the law, I assume they wouldn't get the concession renewed."

    For Lauría, non-renewal itself is not the problem. His concern is the process by which the decision was reached. "I assume in the US there would be a process. The FCC would follow protocol. This is what hasn't happened in Venezuela. We're not arguing that the concession should be renewed, should be given to RCTV. We're just saying that there's no process to evaluate if it should be."

    Vivanco also complained about the process, saying that if the government argues there is a violation of the contract, "that would be settled normally in court. Second, if there's some crimes committed, the individuals who were involved in those crimes should be prosecuted in a court of law."

    On process, they have a legitimate point. The government seems to have made the decision without any administrative or judicial hearings. Unfortunately, this is what the law, first enacted in 1987, long before Chávez entered the political scene, allows. It charges the executive branch with decisions about license renewal, but does not seem to require any administrative hearing. The law should be changed, but at the current moment when broadcast licenses are up for renewal, it is the prevailing law and thus lays out the framework in which decisions are made.

    However, Vivanco's critique goes beyond process to the government's justification for non-renewal. "You have the president saying, forget it, the license is not going to be renewed, it's a bunch of golpistas [coup-mongers] or fascists or whatever – which is clearly some sort of censorship. That sounds like an arbitrary decision made by the president on political grounds. And that is not acceptable."

    Lauría also told me that RCTV was "selectively chosen because of opposition views."

    But is support for the violent overthrow of an elected government really protected political speech? Vivanco acknowledges that RCTV "obviously probably sympathized with the coup." But, he says, "it is a matter of free speech."

    Vivanco understates RCTV's connection to the coup. RCTV encouraged viewers to attend a rally that was part of the coup strategy, invited coup leaders to address the country on their channel, and reported the false information that the president had resigned. After Pedro Carmona declared himself president and dissolved the National Assembly, Supreme Court, and other democratic institutions, the head of RCTV Marcel Granier met with him in the Presidential Palace. The following day, when mass protests and loyal army units brought back President Chávez, RCTV and other stations blacked out the news, showing movies and cartoons instead.

    Such actions clearly go beyond protected free speech, at least in the United States. Imagine the consequences if NBC took such actions during a coup against Bush.

    In fact, RCTV's participation in the oil strike of 2002-2003, and even their joining in legal political campaigns would be grounds for revoking their broadcast license in the United States.

    Consider this episode in the US. Two weeks before the 2004 presidential election, it was reported that the Sinclair Broadcast Group, which operates the largest number of local TV stations in the United States, planned to order its affiliates to replace prime-time programming with a documentary critical of John Kerry.

    Democrats were outraged. The Democratic National Committee filed a case with the FCC arguing that such "partisan propaganda" was inappropriate. And, yes, at least one powerful Democratic politician swore that if the documentary was aired, there would be no Sinclair Broadcast Group by the 2008 election. A Kerry spokesman said, "You don't expect your local TV station to be pushing a political agenda two weeks before an election. It's un-American." Couldn't it be un-Venezuelan too? (The political pressures above led Sinclair to cancel the anti-Kerry broadcast).

    If RCTV were the only major source of opposition to the government, the loss of its voice would be troubling. It would also be disturbing if the RCTV case forced others to tone down legitimate opposition. But Greg Wilpert, a sociologist living in Venezuela, declares, "It is the height of absurdity to say that there's a lack of freedom of press in Venezuela."

    Of the top four private TV stations, three air mostly entertainment and one, Globovisión, is a 24-hours news channel. On Globovisión, Wilpert says, "the opposition is very present. They pretty much dominate it. And in the others, they certainly are very present in the news segments."

    Regarding the print media, Wilpert told me, "There are three main newspapers. Of those three, two are definitely very opposition. The other one is pretty neutral. I would say, [the opposition] certainly dominates the print media by far. There's no doubt about that."

    "I think some of the TV stations have slightly moderated [their opposition to the government] not because of intimidation, but because they were losing audience share. Over half of the population is supportive of Chávez . They've reduced the number of anti-Chávez programs that they used to have. But those that continue to exist are just as anti-Chávez as they were before."

    The RCTV case is not about censorship of political opinion. It is about the government, through a flawed process, declining to renew a broadcast license to a company that would not get a license in other democracies, including the United States. In fact, it is frankly amazing that this company has been allowed to broadcast for 5 years after the coup, and that the Chávez government waited until its license expired to end its use of the public airwaves.

    Once again, it seems, the warnings of a move from democracy to dictatorship in Venezuela have been loud but lacking in evidence.
    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...5&ItemID=12900
    Last edited by Princeps; May 26, 2007 at 11:05 AM.

  3. #3
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    And now, from the perspective of a source that's not part of the power-worshipping American Media...



    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...m?ItemID=11970



    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...5&ItemID=12900
    Yes... and it's all a coincidence that the other two channels that have fallen within governmnet orbit did it out of choice, not by coercion from the government. And two plus two is five. These perspectives analyze the situation from outside, not from inside. These observations take newstories from Chavez or opposition sources and make them into reality. There is no reality in Venezuelan politics, only versions. Every informed Venezuelan, whether pro-Chavez or anti-Chavez, will tell you that the perception of Venezuelan politics from the outside world is incredibly deluded, either for or against Chavez.

    Now, I'm not supporting the opposition... they're just as stupid as Chavez. But when I see Venezuela's most popular channel go off the air, it's not chance that did it, it's government interference and Chavez' desire to consolidate all of Venezuela's power in his hands. This is a dictatorial move. And don't come up with "but some newspapers are still opposition newspapers." Do you know how many people read the newspapers in Venezuela as opposed to those who watch TV? The more educated (the more educated tend to be anti-Chavez) might read newspapers, but the poor sure don't. The TV in Venezuela is central to controlling perception. And just how many public TV stations in Venezuela are opposition TV stations, now? Zero.
    Last edited by Siblesz; May 26, 2007 at 11:31 AM.
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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Chavez is an idiot. The sooner he loses his head the happier i'll be. I have no time for communist/ socialist dictators.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Chavez is an idiot. The sooner he loses his head the happier i'll be. I have no time for communist/ socialist dictators.
    IIRC He's a social democrat -- not a maoist or a communist like the US media has labelled him -- and he is not a dictator.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    IIRC He's a social democrat -- not a maoist or a communist like the US media has labelled him -- and he is not a dictator.
    He's neither. He pretends to be a social-democrat, but he's an economic baffoon that prefers ideas to action, that promotes social welfare but acts against it, that tries to change society but feeds it consumer desires, that speaks against corruption but entices it, that talks of feeding the poor without educating them, that promotes unity but does all in his power to prevent it, that seeks to make the poor an essential part of Venezuelan life, but disenfranchises them from real societal progress. He's not a social democrat. He's another Idi Amin, but without blood on his hands... very charismatic, but not very smart.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    IIRC He's a social democrat -- not a maoist or a communist like the US media has labelled him -- and he is not a dictator.
    The US media? No. This is from the British media: Rule by decree passed for Chavez

    Social Democrat lol.

    He is a Democratic Socialist because social democrats are a form of Capitalism to them.
    Last edited by -Conan the Barbarian-; May 26, 2007 at 11:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by conanthebarbarian View Post
    The US media? No. This is from the British media: Rule by decree passed for Chavez
    Rule by degree -- yes in certain areas for a certain period of time. What he did was constitutional and democratic and has been practised by past presidents -- of course, back then the presidents were pro-US and therefore no noise was raised about it in the US media. I suggest you read about it, from other sources than the right-wing rags or western medias.

    Social Democrat lol.
    Yes. In fact I suggest you read about his policies.
    Last edited by Princeps; May 26, 2007 at 11:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    He's a social democrat and he is not a dictator.
    I can always count on you for a good laugh.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Oh, and this has nothing to do with totalitarianism. Chavez is a man of the people. He is not a dictator... no... he's a freedom fighter...
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/...003263,00.html
    What is that article supposed to show?
    A pro Chavez parliament granted him some powers, which the opposition media was then able to protest against with the whole "Heil Hugo" campaign.
    Then a major US official criticized Venezuela.
    I really don't know what I'm supposed to be seeing here.
    He's neither. He pretends to be a social-democrat, but he's an economic baffoon that prefers ideas to action, that promotes social welfare but acts against it, that tries to change society but feeds it consumer desires, that speaks against corruption but entices it, that talks of feeding the poor without educating them, that promotes unity but does all in his power to prevent it, that seeks to make the poor an essential part of Venezuelan life, but disenfranchises them from real societal progress. He's not a social democrat. He's another Idi Amin, but without blood on his hands... very charismatic, but not very smart.
    So far all I'm hearing is the voice of the upper class who, undoubtedly, lost out out on a lot since Chavez was elected.
    The US media? No. This is from the British media: Rule by decree passed for Chavez

    Social Democrat lol.
    Yeah, a parliament granted a nation's leader the power to rule by decree.
    Not like it ever happens in, say, France.
    Or maybe they've become communists since I last heard of them.
    Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, making decisions based on massive popular support and with all the democratic procedure in place is not dictatorship.
    Last edited by RusskiSoldat; May 26, 2007 at 11:46 AM.





  11. #11
    -Conan the Barbarian-'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by RusskiSoldat View Post

    Yeah, a parliament granted a nation's leader the power to rule by decree.
    Not like it ever happens in, say, France.
    Or maybe they've become communists since I last heard of them.
    Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, making decisions based on massive popular support and with all the democratic procedure in place is not dictatorship.
    No. Rule by decree for the allotted months to push his socialist policies through is dictatorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post


    Yes - very much so. In fact I suggest you read about his policies.
    Wrong Democratic socialist not social democrat read my post above and take your own advise.
    Last edited by -Conan the Barbarian-; May 26, 2007 at 11:51 AM.
    It has been surmised, that perhaps, my lord had become like a wild animal that had been kept too long. Perhaps, but whatever... freedom... so long an unremembered dream, was his.
    The children of Doom...Doom's children. They told my lord the way to the mountain of power. They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth...HA!! time enough for the earth in the grave.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by conanthebarbarian View Post
    No. Rule by decree for the allotted months to push his socialist policies through is dictatorship.
    No - it isn't dictatorship. His power is restricted by the constitution and by the parlament.

    Wrong Democratic socialist not social democrat read my post above and take your own advise.
    Actually, he's a self-identified social democrat -- and as far as I am concerned, his policies have been fundamentally social democrat. He tries to secure his people with tolerable living standards, which is the fundametal part of social democracy.

    The parliament is all Chavez's mates because the opposition refused to participate in the the elections because they were rigged!
    Now, this is just conspiracy theory. Many election observers gave thumbs-up for the election: Chavez' mates are there because the people want them to be there instead of the oligarchs.

    You see, usually when you try to secure your people with tolerable living standards, when you improve your country's medical services and conditions etc, people kinda start liking you.
    Last edited by Princeps; May 26, 2007 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    It has been surmised, that perhaps, my lord had become like a wild animal that had been kept too long. Perhaps, but whatever... freedom... so long an unremembered dream, was his.
    The children of Doom...Doom's children. They told my lord the way to the mountain of power. They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth...HA!! time enough for the earth in the grave.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    No. Rule by decree for the allotted months to push his socialist policies through is dictatorship.
    In contemporary usage, dictatorship refers to an autocratic form of absolute rule by leadership unrestricted by law, constitutions, or other social and political factors within the state.
    As far as I know, not only is his term restricted by law but the parliament can revoke it.
    I, of course, know little of Venezuelan governing and as such only assume that the parliament can end this term, but it seems to me to be the way it works everywhere else.





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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    The parliament is all Chavez's mates because the opposition refused to participate in the the elections because they were rigged! All of the parliament is his supporters who allowed him to rule by decree!

    He is the dictator.
    It has been surmised, that perhaps, my lord had become like a wild animal that had been kept too long. Perhaps, but whatever... freedom... so long an unremembered dream, was his.
    The children of Doom...Doom's children. They told my lord the way to the mountain of power. They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth...HA!! time enough for the earth in the grave.

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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    He tries to secure his people with tolerable living standards, which is the fundametal part of social democracy.
    aww he's so sweet.

    Now, by dooming his economy to the inefficiency of the state, how exactly is he securing his people with tolerable living standards?
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Now, by dooming his economy to the inefficiency of the state,
    One of the worst myths created is that the state is ineffiecent. Well... history is kinda biased against that fantastic myth.

    It is far better than neoliberalism.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    Now, this is just conspiracy theory. Many election observers gave thumbs-up for the election: Chavez' mates are there because the people want them to be there instead of the oligarchs.

    You see, usually when you try to secure your people with tolerable living standards, when you improve your country's medical services and conditions etc, people kinda start liking you.
    Or in reality the oppositions parties didn't participate and now the parliament is all Hugo's mates.

    It's funny because you say your lie that people are starting to like Chavez and yet Venezuelans are opposing Chavez's TV channel closure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    One of the worst myths created is that the state is ineffiecent. Well... history is kinda biased against that fantastic myth.
    Oh Really? What history? What do you have to back up this ridiculous lie? Monopolies are inefficient.
    It has been surmised, that perhaps, my lord had become like a wild animal that had been kept too long. Perhaps, but whatever... freedom... so long an unremembered dream, was his.
    The children of Doom...Doom's children. They told my lord the way to the mountain of power. They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth...HA!! time enough for the earth in the grave.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    One of the worst myths created is that the state is ineffiecent. Well... history is kinda biased against that fantastic myth.

    It is far better than neoliberalism.
    "Cougth, cougth". Mith? Wake up! One of the greatest problems if not the single greatest problem here in Portugal is that the state influence alone ruins any chances of real economical development. Productivity and efficieny are at an all time low solely because of it as well as any iniciative for investement and thus the creation of markets and businesses, in other words the creation of wealth and wealth brings higher livings standards and most especially the abrupt and constantly increases of the general's population economical power thus making businesses florish because their products can be bought at a high scale, in turn companies flourish and job offer remains rich, and in turn this means that the market continues fertile and adaptible to new markets and new sections of business thus leading to a greater increase of wealth in the country's society and also in the money the goverment recieves from the tax it can make to companies. In order for this to happen jobs can't be permanent(although is varies somewhat in different market sections), because you don't stay in the same jobs with the same funtions for the rest of your life, if you are an electrical engineer with professional and market experience that means your professional abilities can offer you a significant range of jobs within your professional capabilities, in short, today your are a freelancer electrician, next year you're working for a company, etc, etc, etc, and if your jobs don't have a market that allows you to have a rich professional life then you can always go back to university and learn something else. Higher economical capacity for consuption means that your living standards increase, you ARE able to by a PC, an apartement, a variety of equipments, kitchenware, PC games(medieval II ) a credit card, etc...

    Liberal policies allow competition and competition allows wealth to be made, and as such living standards grow constantly and the system adapts constantly. With the state you risk having to much public employies that are nothing more than dead weight for the country's economy, wealth and growth.

    The influence of the state in the end only brings poverty for the general population and a very low life style. If you want a certain speciffic piece of equipment you will never be able to get it in these conditions because there simply isn't anyone willing to create a business to sell those and it will be super expensive nor does the system allow this or incentivate the population, with luck perhaps you will be able to get in the capital, with luck, yet it will be no easy task. In fact, a state centered country will be worse in every aspect, especially including environmental because a liberal economy can easily afford in very little time because of adaptation(one of the advantages of a capitalist economy) to change the standards and evovel not to mention the goverment can place in application strict environmental rules in the industry with much more ease, not to mention that companies have already seen great business potential with enviromental energies, in a state controlled country the state doesn't bodder with speciffic problems because it simply can't affort to handle those nor has the capability(that is, assuming it has the will), not to mention it's extremely corrupt very frequently as this creates disadvantages in every section, as corruption case will in turn also generate speciffic interests and ignore many others, one of these very commonly ignored are enviromental for instance, so that ruins the true mith that capitalism inevitably destroys the environment
    Last edited by numerosdecimus; May 31, 2007 at 12:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Venezuela forcing opposition TV station off air

    Any Socialists still defending Chavez even after he has banned a radio station?
    It has been surmised, that perhaps, my lord had become like a wild animal that had been kept too long. Perhaps, but whatever... freedom... so long an unremembered dream, was his.
    The children of Doom...Doom's children. They told my lord the way to the mountain of power. They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth...HA!! time enough for the earth in the grave.

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