Left Vs Right. Fight. No biting, scratching or hiding in the corners.

[Curtana]

The left characterizes the debate as one about 'ends'. The right characterizes the debate as one about the 'means to the ends'. Very often the left says the right is just plain evil. Just as often the right says the left is just plain naive.
What is the truth and will it ever end?
Winner gets to rule the planet.

[The Super Pope]

Leftists cannot create a stable state, as allowing people greater freedom leads to anarchy.
Leftist govts end up more oppressive than right-wing govts.
A left-wing economy does not work ie Russia, Eastern europe
China is only wealthy as it has adopted capitalism

[leeho730]

Just different opinion, mostly due to tax.

Leftists cannot create a stable state, as allowing people greater freedom leads to anarchy.
Leftist govts end up more oppressive than right-wing govts.
A left-wing economy does not work ie Russia, Eastern europe

Er... UK and NZ have been ruled by Labour party for nearly 10 years and we're one of the most free countries in the world.

China is only wealthy as it has adopted capitalism

So there IS a free market in China, and economy is not heavily regulated by the government?



I believe that in the end it boils down to tax rate, which has nothing much to do with freedom of human rights, economy or press.

[Curtana]

Just different opinion, mostly due to tax.
I believe that in the end it boils down to tax rate, which has nothing much to do with freedom of human rights, economy or press.

That is true enough.
The left raises taxes because it reckons if it spends the money it will improve things . The right lowers taxes because it reckons people spending their own money will improve things.
Its the same argument as the OP again. Everyone wants what's best they just disagree over how to achieve it. So repetez vous, fight, duel. Winner gets la republique.

[Erik]

Western left-wing orientated countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, etc) have far better standards of living than Western right-wing orientated counties (USA, GB).

ergo: left-wing wins.

[Dunecat]

Are we talking about only economic systems? Are we including types of government?

Because then we'd have the y-axis, with the authoritarian-liberal sides (right/left).

[leeho730]

GB is ruled by centre-left Labour party, member of Socialist International organization.

Just pointing out the error

Well, I wouldn't say socialism warrants better standard of living, but it is one of the most well-known methods.

Better than socialism? Oils.

[Tom Paine]

GB is ruled by centre-left Labour party, member of Socialist International organization.

Just pointing out the error

Well, I wouldn't say socialism warrants better standard of living, but it is one of the most well-known methods.

Better than socialism? Oils.

Actually, the Labour Party is not - in British or European terms anyway - socialistic and has divorced itself from its old socialist roots as far as possible without alienating them too much.

[Last Roman]

Western left-wing orientated countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, etc) have far better standards of living than Western right-wing orientated counties (USA, GB).

ergo: left-wing wins.

of course, that's assuming we all think that it's the government's job to create a higher standard of living.

anyhoo, I hate the idea of "right vs. left"

it's much more complicated than that.

[The Super Pope]

France has been leftist for years. As a result Paris is usually on fire and they have now elected their version of Mrs. Thatcher(Hallowed be her name)

Also the Scandinavian states you draw parallels with have very small pop. and ruinosly expensive welfare systems. (I think that this is now an issue in Swedish elections.)

[leeho730]

France has been leftist for years. As a result Paris is usually on fire and they have now elected their version of Mrs. Thatcher(Hallowed be her name)

The first French socialist president, François Mitterrand, was elected in 1981. Jacques René Chirac, who was a president from 1995 to 2007, is affiliated to UMP, a centre-right political party.

Just pointing out the errors

However, indeed, Europe in general is more socialistic than US.

[Curtana]

Western left-wing orientated countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, etc) have far better standards of living than Western right-wing orientated counties

Cause and effect. Richer countries can afford to spend more on welfare. Spending more on welfare is not necessarily proof of more successful government. You can get a huge wad of cash from natural resources alone.

Are we talking about only economic systems? Are we including types of government? Because then we'd have the y-axis, with the authoritarian-liberal sides (right/left).

No holds barred, no hallowed ground, authoritarianism is a valid topic. But is the left or the right more authoritarian? It is not always so obvious, me thinks.

[Erik]

Cause and effect. Richer countries can afford to spend more on welfare.

USA is richer than all Scandinavian countries, so that's not true.

[Princeps]

USA is richer than all Scandinavian countries, so that's not true.

US is broke.

[Curtana]

USA is richer than all Scandinavian countries, so that's not true.

Richer countries may not choose to spend more on welfare but they do have the option. Bangladesh is poor and couldn't spend more on welfare even if it wanted to.
The idea of this thread is less to define one's own entrenched position and more to lay out a defence of leftist or rightist principles.
For example: It has been said that the left supports individual freedoms and the right does not.

I could say the left restricts individual freedoms by giving more power to government.
The right supports individual freedoms by giving less power to government.


The extremes at both ends of the political spectrum shade into each other and may be discounted for these purposes.

[Erik]

New Labour is more right-wing than the Tories, they are basically the British version of the American neo-conservatives.

[The Super Pope]

New labour is more right-wing than the Tories.

And it's new labour that's in power. Old labour could never get in power.
Last Labour PMs Callaghan and Wilson ended Labour as a force

[leeho730]

Actually, the Labour Party is not - in British or European terms anyway - socialistic and has divorced itself from its old socialist roots as far as possible without alienating them too much.

Quite true. Blair calls it "The Third Way."

I believe the party has essentially become a centre party.

[The Super Pope]

"Britain is a consevative country that occasionaly votes Labour"

[Carach]

Right is the realist side AIIIIIGHT