BC: Rehauling the Religion/Conversion System

[Miraj]

Hi Everyone,

I'm opening discussion on what you guys think of the M2TW religion and conversion system and what do you think you'd like to see change.

Personally I dislike the religion system. The notion of an imam strolling into Constantinople and converting 10% of the population to Islam in 2 turns is just too ridiculous for me. In these time most of the conversions of people took place due to either political alliances (ie allied tribal chieftains converting) or through direct conquest. While missionizing by sufis in the Islamic world was common it's hardly the way or rate the game portrays.

So here are a couple of option i've been thinking about:

- Make mosques/churches/temples the primary conversion tool.
- Allow the recruitment of imams/preist only at very high (or highest) levels
OR Reduce the conversion power of imams/priests to very very low rates
- Reduce heretics to the point that most heretics on the map will be former priests that fell to heresy, not newly spawned ones.

Another idea is the inclusion of levels of imams and orthodox preists. Do you want a heirarchy?


Any thoughts?

[CelticPagan]

I like all three options, though I worry about the second (Priests/Imams not being recruited till high or very high level buildings are available) might adversly effect public happiness.

Perhaps a happy medium could be achieved if, when recruited, clerical agents get certain traits that make them less likely to go heretic, but at the same time have low conversion chance? Say they all get Dogmatic 2, but you lower any chance of conversion to the minimum allowed? This will reduce the chance of heretical spawns while keeping the Church/Mosque/Temple the main place of conversion. Oh, also limiting their movement may help, so they can't move far each turn, and thus can't run to opposing religious factions all that quickly. This would stop the quick conversion too, and resemble the main goal of most clerical types - preaching to the chior.

Just a humble idea

[John I Tzimisces]

Indestructable buildings in certain provinces that keep such a high level of conversion it will be more difficult to convert them than others, as historically prudent.

[Slaxx Hatmen]

Indestructable buildings in certain provinces that keep such a high level of conversion it will be more difficult to convert them than others, as historically prudent.

*Cough*HagiaSophia*Cough*

[Randarkmaan]

I think that the first option is best, religious buldings should be the primary copnversion tool. Also I think that priests and such should only be ancillaries. Priests and Imams don' usually go about converting people, they lead sermons, read the bible/quran and study philosophy and/or theology. I think that the "priest agent" should be renamed "missionary", because those are the guys who go off to foreign lands and convert people, and they should only be available at high level religious buildings.

[Ahiga]

Indestructable buildings in certain provinces that keep such a high level of conversion it will be more difficult to convert them than others, as historically prudent.

Right. I'd like to see this in a later update, as it'd take a bit of work, but it would work wonderfully. We could keep open the fact that even back then, even today, there is still something like a 10% Christian minority in Egypt. It would be a big deal in India too, and would help give a turbulent but not overly so sense to the religious makeup of BC. The buildings would allow us to make it so you need generals who can sometimes get along with the local Christians, Indians, or Muslims - not destroy them.

[Randarkmaan]

Right. I'd like to see this in a later update, as it'd take a bit of work, but it would work wonderfully. We could keep open the fact that even back then, even today, there is still something like a 10% Christian minority in Egypt. .

I think up until the end of the 12th century, Egypt was still majorily chrisitian, the same for much of Syria and Palestine.

[IrAr]

I think up until the end of the 12th century, Egypt was still majorily chrisitian, the same for much of Syria and Palestine.

Yes, most of what many think of as Islamic-denominated lands only shifted to Muslim majorities relatively recently, anywhere in the last 800-100 years, in fact. At the game's start, Urha (Edessa) and Antioch had large Christian majorities, for example.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I think the Imams/Priests should be recruited from the level 4 & 5 religious buildings and their conversion effects should be lowered. Heretics should not spawn on their own, and your priests/imams should not convert to heresy very easily. Also, their movement points should be lowered.

Churches/Mosques should convert much faster than in vanilla and they should be the primary conversion tool. Also, I think it would help to have 2 or 3 religious buildings per settlement, if thats possible. For example, the Christians could get a Church, a Monastery, and a Abbey/Cathedral (buildable only from large settlements, and the Cathedrals would recruit priests) all in one settlement, assuming that you have large enough walls built. You might be thinking, "that’s very unrealistic to have so much in one town," but the monastery and possibly the church would be build outside and away from the town in some little village or something. This way you don't have one church on Crete converting the entire island or something unrealistic like that.

[Miraj]

I like the idea of lowering the power and increasing the recruitement level of priests while adding a new line(s) of religious buildings. The new conversion power of buildings would be split amongst these new structures.

What I like for now is a new "madrasa/monastery" line of structures.

[Beauchamp]

Maybe you could construct a lodge and recive Sufi's who could spread the Sunni Islamic faith at a relatively slow rate, while Imams/Alim's could be generated from level 4/5 Masajad to spread the faith...

[Miraj]

Maybe you could construct a lodge and recive Sufi's who could spread the Sunni Islamic faith at a relatively slow rate, while Imams/Alim's could be generated from level 4/5 Masajad to spread the faith...

Yeah I have to include Sufis in some way or form. It'd be a shame to make BC and have no Sufis representation. What were the sufi lodges called again, something like "Tariqas" right?

[Beauchamp]

Tariqa is like denomination,
There are many names for lodges, the persian word is Khanqah
they could also facilitate the recruitment of Ghazis!

[IrAr]

Crucifix, for large cities, there would need to be many places of worship, even for just one faith! Ani wasn't called the "City of 1001 Churches" for nothing.

[Eraser]

Could you have outbreaks of heretics in certain provinces and/or regions to mirror historic religious upheavels? I dont have a very good knowledge of middle eastern history for this period but im sure there must be examples of outbreaks of heresy?

[Miraj]

Yeah, I can spawn specific heretics in certain areas based on any number of conditions .

[Miraj]

FYI:

Structures belonging to one religion are automatically destroyed when another religion takes over. Structures that are meant for spreading one religion cannot existing under control of a faction belonging to another religion. So basically I can't fulfill the idea of having a region keep a certain religion still growing when under control of a different one.

[IrAr]

Ach! Blast you, CA hardcoded obsacles!!! Ah, that really, really destroys gameplay-enriching material! I'm going to need a moment to cope.

[Miraj]

Ach! Blast you, CA hardcoded obsacles!!! Ah, that really, really destroys gameplay-enriching material! I'm going to need a moment to cope.

Well it might sink the idea of having an inherent religious nature of specific regions. But as far as unique buildings are concerned I think I will work my way around it by allowing for two "versions" for the important city. IE Hagia Sophia Church vs Hagia Sophia Mosque, Sephulcre VS Dome of Rock etc.

But anything that involves a faction of religion X owning a building that converts to religion Y is a no-no.

[Icefrisco]

I think you should reduce the conversion power. I hate how places just convert to a completely different religion after only a few turns. However, this happened in some areas during the Middle Ages(southern spain,anatolia,caucuauses) so maybe the game can be scripted that certain regions convert faster then others.