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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Presenting a documentary doesn't mean you are an authority worthy of respect.
You’ll find no disagreement from me because that’s not a point I have ever made.
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Apart from the dog-whistling I mentioned earlier, he treats Muslims as a monolithic group
What is your evidence that his comments were dog whistles.
How does he treat Muslims as a monolith.
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and assumes group responsibility for their actions
When did he do this.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Aexodus
You’ll find no disagreement from me because that’s not a point I have ever made.
So, why didn't you bring it up?
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Originally Posted by
Aexodus
What is your evidence that his comments were dog whistles.
So what was his point, when he mentioned that some Muslims didn't wear the poppy badge or that the common denominator of the sexual abusers was their belief in Islam? Innocent observations as meaningful as saying that all of the criminals were males and that my bearded neighbor didn't sing the national anthem or a slightly venomous insinuation?
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Originally Posted by
Aexodus
How does he treat Muslims as a monolith.
Source.
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It was correct for Muslims to be judged collectively, he argued. “You keep saying that I make these generalisations,” he said. “But the truth is, if you do belong to a group, whether it is a church, or a football club, you identify with a particular set of values, and you stand for it. And frankly you are judged by that.”
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They say I am accusing Muslims of being different. Well, actually, that’s true. The point is Muslims are different. And in many ways I think that’s admirable.”
He seems pretty proud of his cluelessness, which is why I suspect he's simply naive and ignorant and not consciously bigoted. In any case, this behaviour is inappropriate for a public figure and a prominent party member, as it can lead to decline in popularity.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Abdülmecid I
I thought the revolutionary leftists were into defining society along class and not ethnic lines or skin pigmentation.
You thought wrong. The radical left has long sought to use mass migration and ethnic divisions as a tool to undermine the nation state. Of course their zealotry ends up being exploited by the neoliberals who want to keep the labour market saturated and control various constituencies, but that's an argument for another thread.
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Perhaps I'm an old school chap
Perhaps. Yet here you are, parroting generic talking points of the modern left. The attempts shoehorn the usual boogeymen (the US, Tommy Robinson, the Third Reich and Saudi Arabia) into the discussion were almost as predictable the latent criticism of the UK's attitude toward Hezbollah. I wonder how long until the complaints about Israel start rolling in.
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but I suspect that your perceptions are influenced by the American dogma, which has unfortunately also expanded and perhaps currently dominates the political discourse in the United Kingdom. That's the intellectual colonisation I mentioned above, which is not a jab at the United States. Quite the contrary, in fact, I would personally gloat a lot if my country enjoyed such an ideological preponderance, but unfortunately that's the case only in sub-Saharan Africa and that's because we control their currency and money supply.
I see. So when you accuse the US of exporting racism and "intellectually colonizing" Europe (the UK has some of the least conservative attitudes toward Islam in Europe), that isn't an example of your usual sniping; what you're actually doing is praising the US for being hegemonic. And this is despite the fact that in the very same paragraph you note that the US's "domination of the political discourse" is "unfortunate".
https://i.imgur.com/YIDfiqj.png
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Trevor Philips also seems to endorse the obsession with identity politics, except when he's criticised for it, when he immediately throws the "Islam is not a race" card, despite never having addressed the Islamic doctrine and always treating Muslims as a separate culture-ethnic group.
Islam is no more a "race" than is Christianity or Paganism. That is statement of fact. The attempts by identity grifters like Warsi to equate Islam with ethnic Jews so they can throw the Islam is a race card despite never having addressed any elements of "Islamic doctrine" present an obstacle to further integration. As do Labour's efforts to stifle any discussion on these issues - which will undoubtedly continue to backfire in the same way that their refusal to acknowledge, let alone compromise on, concerns about immigration cost them their EU dreams.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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He seems pretty proud of his cluelessness, which is why I suspect he's simply naive and ignorant and not consciously bigoted. In any case, this behaviour is inappropriate for a public figure and a prominent party member, as it can lead to decline in popularity.
So he shouldn’t have the right to make comments on Muslim integration?
I find it utterly bewildering that you think Trevor Philips’ comments would make Labour less popular when they are views held by most people. Muslims are different. Muslims have integration problems. Some Muslims even refuse to support the forces.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
In some potentially good news relating to this story, Corbyn's "lunatic lefties" are set to be "purged" by Starmer if, as expected, he wins the Labour leadership election. The person behind Phillips' suspension, Jennie Formby, is likely to be one of those removed. Although it's doubtful that Starmer's prospective victory will rid Labour of its divisive identity activism, there's a reasonable chance that his leadership will lead to a general detoxification of the party, particularly with respect to anti-Semitism.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
He should have the right and still does, in fact. His personal liberty has not been curtailed, as a result of his blunders. Freedom of speech does not apply to private institutions, as parties are definitely allowed to suspend and expel their members, whose ideas are damaging. For example, the Labour party has taken measures against several activists, who propagate antisemitic hatred, so I don't see why Trevor Phillips should be an exception. Your second suggestion is extremely cynical and probably self-destructive, in the long term. If the majority of voters hold an inaccurate and bigoted perception of reality, that doesn't mean that parties should pander to them, at the expense of facts and ideology.
What you advocate for is that parties should ditch their political principles and operate exclusively based on polling. If the British public thought that Catholics are incompatible within a non-secular state ruled by an Anglican monarchy, should the Tories adjust their manifesto accordingly? I think not. Moreover, apart from the ethical concerns, having such a fluid agenda is detrimental and will probably alienate than lure new voters. Corbyn the populist tried that strategy, by adopting an ambiguous position on Brexit, and got deservedly obliterated in the subsequent elections. Anyway, in what concerns the Labour voters, the majority is not paranoid about Muslims, presumably because, unlike Trevor Phillips, rely on more on statistical data than arbitrary generalisations and strict poppy-monitoring.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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He should have the right and still does, in fact. His personal liberty has not been curtailed, as a result of his blunders. Freedom of speech does not apply to private institutions, as parties are definitely allowed to suspend and expel their members, whose ideas are damaging.
I mean the right to talk about integration in the Labour party.
It’s simply not true that Phillips was ever damaging for the Labour party. As the majority of reactions from the media and public should tell you, he was one of the good guys when it came to racial equality and cultural issues.
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What you advocate for is that parties should ditch their political principles and operate exclusively based on polling.
No, I’m pointing out that Philips hasn’t caused a decline in popularity which justifies his suspension, something which you claimed, not me.
Edit: More prominent reactions to the suspension.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...revor-phillips
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The three contenders for the Labour leadership have been urged to condemn the suspension of Trevor Phillips from the party over accusations of Islamophobia.
Former Labour MP Lord Mann, who now serves as the Government's anti-semitism tsar, branded the move to halt Mr Phillips' membership of the party "Orwellian" as he called on Sir Keir Starmer, Lisa Nandy and Rebecca Long-Bailey to step in.
Mr Phillips, the former head of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), was told last month that he had been handed an administrative suspension over a string of public statements on Islam.
They include claims by Mr Phillips that the "integration of Muslims will probably be the hardest task we’ve ever faced"; criticism of a group of Muslim scholars for not wearing Remembrance Day poppies; and a warning of the "collision between majority norms and the behaviours of some Muslim groups".
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But Lord Mann told The Times: "It is the role of elected leaders to make the big calls, and an allegation of this kind against one of your longserving members is of that order
"You either welcome the investigation or you defend your local member."
And he said of the suspension: "There’s only one word to describe this action - it’s Orwellian."
'LUDICROUS'
Mr Phillips has also won the support of two former Labour home secretaries, Charles Clarke and David Blunkett.
Mr Clarke said: "He is a long-term campaigner against religious and racial discrimination and he should be an absolutely welcome member of our party," he added.
Meanwhile Lord Blunkett, who appointed Mr Phillips to the EHRC, told The Times: "He would not have obtained or retained this post had I believed that he could be accused of Islamophobia."
It’s important that party members of both the Tories and Labour have room to debate and discuss difficult issues. In contrast, Labour has shown its intolerance and narrow mindedness.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Abdülmecid I
So, why didn't you bring it up?
So what was his point, when he mentioned that some Muslims didn't wear the poppy badge or that the common denominator of the sexual abusers was their belief in Islam? Innocent observations as meaningful as saying that all of the criminals were males and that my bearded neighbor didn't sing the national anthem or a slightly venomous insinuation?
The poppy thing is indication that they are not integrating. Or that they just happen to be strong supporters of Kaiser Wilhelm. I tend to think former is the case.
The reason he points out the popularity of Islam among sexual abusers is quite clear, given how permissive Islam itself is to rape and oppression of women.
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He seems pretty proud of his cluelessness, which is why I suspect he's simply naive and ignorant and not consciously bigoted. In any case, this behaviour is inappropriate for a public figure and a prominent party member, as it can lead to decline in popularity.
So basically he deserved to lose his position, for pointing out holes in Labor's "progressive" ideology?
It is pretty bad logic, but it explains why some globalist liberal politicians would rather endanger their people then pass an opportunity to virtue signal.
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Originally Posted by
Aexodus
Unless you have some credible evidence, please leave your conspiracy theories at the door.
I neither stated that that was confirmed fact, nor do I require your permission to state what probably happened, given how politicians and journos that constantly spread hysteria about "islamophobia" tend to rub shoulders with Gulf's theocracies, like our Trudeau here in Canada, for example. Labor seems to be rather similar in its virtue signaling and appeasing theocratic nonsense.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
The hard left's overprotection of Islam (a privilege which would never be afforded to any other religion) is not simply about “virtue signalling” or controlling certain constituencies. It is also an extension of their cynical attempts to build alliances in the struggle against America, Israel and worldwide Jewry - all of which are viewed as synonymous with, and emblematic of, the evils of international capitalism, white colonialism and the oppressor/oppressed relationship.
This mentality has its origins (at least in part) in Marx’s 1844 essay “On the Jewish Question” which regurgitated a variety of common anti-Semitic and anti-American conspiracy theories:
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Originally Posted by Karl Marx
What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.
The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power and the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews.
Indeed, in North America, the practical domination of Judaism over the Christian world has achieved as its unambiguous and normal expression that the preaching of the Gospel itself and the Christian ministry have become articles of trade, and the bankrupt trader deals in the Gospel just as the Gospel preacher who has become rich goes in for business deals.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
Damn, Karl was f'd up. I wonder if colleges will cancel him any time soon.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Prodromos
Damn, Karl was f'd up. I wonder if colleges will cancel him any time soon.
On first reading you'd be forgiven for thinking that Marx's comments were written by Goebbels. The more you read, the more the association between revolutionary socialism and national socialism becomes unmistakable. These days, the radical left pretend that because they pose as anti-fascists they're necessarily opposed to anti-Semitism even though they try to hide their prejudices behind obsessive criticisms of Israel.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
ep1c_fail
On first reading you'd be forgiven for thinking that Marx's comments were written by Goebbels. The more you read, the more the association between revolutionary socialism and national socialism becomes unmistakable. These days, the radical left pretend that because they pose as anti-fascists they're necessarily opposed to anti-Semitism even though they try to hide their prejudices behind obsessive criticisms of Israel.
This is only true if one were to focus on how many times the word "Jew" was uttered while reading.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
Jews weren't the only ethnicity that Marx hated. He was also a raging rusophobe. At least now we get why "democratic socialist" lunatics so obsessively hate Russian people.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Heathen Hammer
Jews weren't the only ethnicity that Marx hated. He was also a raging rusophobe. At least now we get why "democratic socialist" lunatics so obsessively hate Russian people.
Clearly why they sent Lenin to Russia. They hated them so much. Nice.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Love Mountain
Clearly why they sent Lenin to Russia. They hated them so much. Nice.
Just like most "socialist revolutionaries", Lenin hated his own people, which nobody really doubts given the sheer scale of genocide that he unleashed along with his murderous crony Trotsky on poor Russian people. Socialists aren't that different from, say, violent cultists or ISIS militants. They may claim they want "better future" , but in reality they are just sociopaths who want to "see the world burn".
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Cope
In some potentially good news relating to this story,
Corbyn's "lunatic lefties" are set to be "purged" by Starmer if, as expected, he wins the Labour leadership election. The person behind Phillips' suspension, Jennie Formby, is likely to be one of those removed. Although it's doubtful that Starmer's prospective victory will rid Labour of its divisive identity activism, there's a reasonable chance that his leadership will lead to a general detoxification of the party, particularly with respect to anti-Semitism.
Formby jumps before she's pushed.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
Another case of mainstream political parties disenfranchising independent minds in the name of political correctness.
Also since we are talking about all-known german figures like Marx and Goebbels..., i'd like to mention the social democrat Thilo Sarrazin who is less known but more contemporary. He wrote a serious treatise on the backwardness of islam and the social costs of immigration, and similary he was hounded as racist and islamophobe, leading to the expulsion from the social democrats.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
Aexodus
I'm back. This thread is such :wub: I've decided to take a short break from helping the UK with it's virus problem.
What independently verifiable facts are you referring to?
“...assume Muslims have views that are inherently different to other communities”.
Bollocks, in what way that is the case for the majority of Muslims, who were brought up and raised under UK educational systems.To quote a real Muslim, Fiyaz Mughal , "There are Muslims fully integrated into our society that have a ‘world view’ that is no different to others and the only difference is that they pray five times a day". Exactly. Of course many of that community won't even be that religious.
Because what you are essentially saying is the fact that they behave in a different way, some of which we may not like, is because they haven’t yet seen the light. It may be that they see the world differently from the rest of us.”
What generic things do Muslims do that 'we' whoever they are, collectively 'don't like'. Do they drink the blood of babies, like racists convinced themselves that Jews did? A disgraceful thing for a former chair of an equality body to say. Asking Muslims to integrate when the majority are born here spouting Yorkshire/Cockney/Celtic accents is insulting. If he referred to new migrants, he'd have an arguable point. he didn't, it's a dogwhistle.
"British Muslims becoming a nation within a nation" Muslims haven't been a nation since the Umayya Caliphate broke up. They consist of diverse communities, Nigerian, Pakistani, Turkish, Bangladeshi, EAs European, Somali, Persian. All but the Persians have a common faith but so do Christians and atheists and no-one seriously suggests that Poles, Englishmen and Irishmen and Jamaicans are becoming 'a nation within a nation'. Phillips thinks it's was fine if Muslims are judged collectively. Yet if he, as a Labour Party member said the same thing about Jews and Israel, you well know that his name would be plastered all over the Jewish Chronicle and the Tory press.
On seeing only one “Muslim” wearing a poppy at an event days before Remembrance Sunday, and claiming many of the “African and eastern European” industrial site workers he visited on the same day were wearing poppies. Racist, this judgement is seemingly based on skin colour alone, unless you are telling me that he asked all present to declare their religion. It’s seemingly beyond this bigot's comprehension that Africans and eastern Europeans could be Muslim, too or that the 'Muslim' might be an atheist or like myself has chosen not to buy one until closer to the time ( I commemorate the event by actually paying respect by way of attending Church and making appropriate donations, displaying a cheap plastic thing doesn't do it for me).Phillip's remarks are a dogwhistle implying a lack of respect for UK's veterans, an insult considering the numbers of Commonwealth Muslims who fought in 2 world wars .It is also an insult to serving Muslims. Phillips' remarks offer credence to racist EDL myths about the poppy and encouraged the UK phenomenon known as poppy fascism.
Generalising and racialising an entire group on the actions of a handful, quoting anecdotal examples as typical of a whole community, proposing exceptionalism in policy-making based on an individual’s perceived identity, all signs of racism itself, which is disgraceful given his former role. But there again he was a New Labour placeman , put there when, after 9/11, New Labour was more concerned about the views of BNP supporters in its heartlands than the civil rights of others.
He wasn't rated by his EHRC peers, he was bloody useless, in fact. Certainly not a patch on the less media hungry but highly regardly cross-bench peer Lord Ousley, who has done so much to clean up racism in football.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/...hts-commission
This next chap is so wrong there ought to be a badge for it.
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Originally Posted by
Cope
You thought wrong. The radical left has long sought to use mass migration and ethnic divisions as a tool to undermine the nation state. Of course their zealotry ends up being exploited by the neoliberals who want to keep the labour market saturated and control various constituencies, but that's an argument for another thread.
Lies
The UK has only had one radical left Government. The Atlee administration. It opposed black migration to the point that it explored ways of excluding 'coloured people' , British citizens I might add, from right of entry. Successive governments worked on this and decided to restrict all Commonwealth migration until the 1971 Act which removed almost all remaining rights.No 'neoliberal' government , as you called them, has repealed these laws, they strengthened them to the point where Theresa May's government overeached themselves and deported black people who had every right to stay in the UK.
European migration on the other hand was encouraged until the clusterwub that is Brexit hijacked politics. Traditionally the Labour left were overtly racist , unions notoriously setting up closed shops to bar black people and women from the workplace until this practice was rendered unlawful. Separate female and black unions existed until the 1980s, so backward were the left when it came to treating people as equals.
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Originally Posted by
Cope
Perhaps. Yet here you are, parroting generic talking points of the modern left. The attempts shoehorn the usual boogeymen (the US, Tommy Robinson, the Third Reich and Saudi Arabia) into the discussion were almost as predictable the latent criticism of the UK's attitude toward Hezbollah. I wonder how long until the complaints about Israel start rolling in.
Tommy Robinson is a convicted fraud who saw the opportunity to make money out of the Islamophobia industry that grew around 9/11 and the Bush/Blair wars. His :wub: has not contributed much to the wellbeing of this nation, indeed his views are linked to at least two terrorist events. Without Saudi funding extremism, or indeed Saudi nationals plotting 9/11, Robinson would have been just another violent football hooloigan
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Originally Posted by
Cope
I see. So when you accuse the US of exporting racism and "intellectually colonizing" Europe (the UK has some of the least conservative attitudes toward Islam in Europe), that isn't an example of your usual sniping; what you're actually doing is praising the US for being hegemonic. And this is despite the fact that in the very same paragraph you note that the US's "domination of the political discourse" is "unfortunate".
Racism and Islamophobia, although I think not so influential now, is a multi million dollar industry. Much of this material finds its way on Facebook , twitter and so forth, radialising the likes of Darren Osborne, The Christchurch killer, Anders Breivik and so on.We know this because these terrorists are proud to say that they have read this material and have acted upon it.
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Originally Posted by
Cope
Islam is no more a "race" than is Christianity or Paganism. That is statement of fact. The attempts by identity grifters like Warsi to equate Islam with ethnic Jews so they can throw the Islam is a race card despite never having addressed any elements of "Islamic doctrine" present an obstacle to further integration. As do Labour's efforts to stifle any discussion on these issues - which will undoubtedly continue to backfire in the same way that their refusal to acknowledge, let alone compromise on, concerns about immigration cost them their EU dreams.
There are nationalities such as Turkish, Nigerian and Pakistani . Islam requires people to exist, these people belong to races. There is no such thing as a single 'Islamic doctrine' Muslims have sects just like any other religion. Some 'Muslims' aren't even that religious, if at all. Commonwealth migration is controlled, it's the migration of EU citizens that was unlimited. No we are being told we don't have enough of them, ironically.
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Re: Trevor Philips, Racial Equality Campaigner has been Suspended from the Labour Party
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Originally Posted by
mongrel
I'm back.
Welcome back. Glad you are well.
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This next chap is so wrong there ought to be a badge for it.
Not as wrong as Jeremy Corbyn though. :laughter:
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Lies
The UK has only had one radical left Government. The Atlee administration. It opposed black migration to the point that it explored ways of excluding 'coloured people' , British citizens I might add, from right of entry. Successive governments worked on this and decided to restrict all Commonwealth migration until the 1971 Act which removed almost all remaining rights.No 'neoliberal' government , as you called them, has repealed these laws, they strengthened them to the point where Theresa May's government overeached themselves and deported black people who had every right to stay in the UK.
European migration on the other hand was encouraged until the clusterwub that is Brexit hijacked politics. Traditionally the Labour left were overtly racist , unions notoriously setting up closed shops to bar black people and women from the workplace until this practice was rendered unlawful. Separate female and black unions existed until the 1980s, so backward were the left when it came to treating people as equals.
The radical left of 2020 (what I was referring to) is not the radical left of 1945. Nevertheless, thank you for reminding us that the far-left has a poor electoral record and a history of racism that long predates the 21st century.
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Tommy Robinson is a convicted fraud who saw the opportunity to make money out of the Islamophobia industry that grew around 9/11 and the Bush/Blair wars. His :wub: has not contributed much to the wellbeing of this nation, indeed his views are linked to at least two terrorist events. Without Saudi funding extremism, or indeed Saudi nationals plotting 9/11, Robinson would have been just another violent football hooloigan
Then we agree that there's no need for him to be shoehorned into the debate.
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Racism and Islamophobia, although I think not so influential now, is a multi million dollar industry. Much of this material finds its way on Facebook , twitter and so forth, radialising the likes of Darren Osborne, The Christchurch killer, Anders Breivik and so on.We know this because these terrorists are proud to say that they have read this material and have acted upon it.
There are nationalities such as Turkish, Nigerian and Pakistani . Islam requires people to exist, these people belong to races. There is no such thing as a single 'Islamic doctrine' Muslims have sects just like any other religion. Some 'Muslims' aren't even that religious, if at all. Commonwealth migration is controlled, it's the migration of EU citizens that was unlimited. No we are being told we don't have enough of them, ironically.
Thank you for agreeing that identity grifting is a concern and that Islam is a faith (arguably a collection of faiths) not a race.
