My two cents-the UK government (Boris) need to stop pretending to invent an imaginary new deal. The only purpose of an extension is to give the UK time to reach consensus on one of the three viable options: the current deal, no deal or remain-eventually until a second referendum.
September 09, 2019, 10:53 AM
ioannis76
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludicus
My two cents-the UK government (Boris) need to stop pretending to invent an imaginary new deal. The only purpose of an extension is to give the UK time to reach consensus on one of the three viable options: the current deal, no deal or remain-eventually until a second referendum.
Excuse me, but why should there be a second referendum? Was there any foulplay in the first one? The people of the UK has already spoken. Asking again and again, until you get the answer you like, is a travesty of democracy.
September 09, 2019, 11:24 AM
Daruwind
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioannis76
Excuse me, but why should there be a second referendum? Was there any foulplay in the first one? The people of the UK has already spoken. Asking again and again, until you get the answer you like, is a travesty of democracy.
Current mess is direct result of poor result of first referendum. Because both sides has almost 50%, that is very strong view to contest anything. 2:1, 3:1 are way different than 1:1.
First referendum result is weak win for leave. However not saying what kind of leave people wants....you say that UK should not remain in EU due to first referendum but in that case we cannot quess which kind of deal if any has majority in population (else you agree that 100% leavers are fine with "no deal"? or what about May deal..why I cannot claim that 100% leavers voted for May deal?)...Simply solution is second referendum either Remain vs one final leave option or remain vs no deal vs deal.....possibly taking long extension to calm down home politics in UK,get new election and prepare such final deal. Deal that may pass in parliament. So far no deal has managed that...
September 09, 2019, 11:32 AM
Cope
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioannis76
Excuse me, but why should there be a second referendum? Was there any foulplay in the first one? The people of the UK has already spoken. Asking again and again, until you get the answer you like, is a travesty of democracy.
Because Daruwind didn't like the result. So when remain loses another referendum he'll just ask for a third.
September 09, 2019, 11:51 AM
95thrifleman
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daruwind
Bercow announcing he will step down on October 31st. (Damn so much fun with him... :wavecry:)
He was cool, but his blatant anti-brexit position rather undermined the neutrality of his post.
September 09, 2019, 11:59 AM
Daruwind
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ep1c_fail
Because Daruwind didn't like the result. So when remain loses another referendum he'll just ask for a third.
Go back a few pages where I wrote that no matter which option won, 52% would be :wub: result. :whistlingDante said it also, thsi problem won´t go away soon. If there is any brexit and following worsening of UK economic condition, the return option will gain popularity. Same wild wild damaging no deal. And of course in case of revoking/extension Farage will continue to make living of EU critique....
So when I say to put things to new referendum, I mean with some kind of threshold. 60%? anything, if the results fail again then keepign status quo and having long term public discussion is natural order of things...This whole discussion is not about one date, one act, one end. Things are connected. Whether you want it or not, Scotland might head to indepence, NI to troubles and how this will change situation in UK in decade?
I care about EU because the Albion while being island cannot be moved away from our shores and it troubles me when people like Bojo are thinkin just about themselves. What happens to UK will influence EU and feedback will be felt back as well....BTW you know what? Czech are one of biggest EU sceptics and yet nobody here is serious enought to call for czexit. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95thrifleman
He was cool, but his blatant anti-brexit position rather undermined the neutrality of his post.
I was merely refering to fun watching him. Fully understand that for brexiteers he was pain in the ass of lately...But try comparing to our boring session in czech parliament. No, out are super boring branless debates...endless :)
September 09, 2019, 12:09 PM
Cope
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daruwind
Go back a few pages where I wrote that no matter which option won, 52% would be :wub: result. :whistlingDante said it also, thsi problem won´t go away soon. If there is any brexit and following worsening of UK economic condition, the return option will gain popularity. Same wild wild damaging no deal. And of course in case of revoking/extension Farage will continue to make living of EU critique....
So when I say to put things to new referendum, I mean with some kind of threshold. 60%? anything, if the results fail again then keepign status quo and having long term public discussion is natural order of things...This whole discussion is not about one date, one act, one end. Things are connected. Whether you want it or not, Scotland might head to indepence, NI to troubles and how this will change situation in UK in decade?
I care about EU because the Albion while being island cannot be moved away from our shores and it troubles me when people like Bojo are thinkin just about themselves. What happens to UK will influence EU and feedback will be felt back as well....BTW you know what? Czech are one of biggest EU sceptics and yet nobody here is serious enought to call for czexit. :D
Like I said, you want another referendum because you don't like the outcome of the first. If leave won again, you'd demand yet another vote. That's it.
September 09, 2019, 12:20 PM
Daruwind
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ep1c_fail
Like I said, you want another referendum because you don't like the outcome of the first. If leave won again, you'd demand yet another vote. That's it.
if the result is again 50:50 then keep status quo and let´s have debate to produce majority for any long term plan...(heck take even 5 years to produce such majority. EU will be happy without this constant mess, UK politics will be happy and things will move)
if one option win with enough support then do it...if there is 66%-75% people voting for one kind of leave option. Hiding behind "leave" is exactly why current mess is here. For everyone such "leave" is something else...or tell me which option got majority in referendum ;-)
If majority of people support brexit than what do you fear? What is more democratic than exercising your rights by voting?
September 09, 2019, 01:08 PM
Cope
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daruwind
if the result is again 50:50 then keep status quo and let´s have debate to produce majority for any long term plan...(heck take even 5 years to produce such majority. EU will be happy without this constant mess, UK politics will be happy and things will move)
if one option win with enough support then do it...if there is 66%-75% people voting for one kind of leave option. Hiding behind "leave" is exactly why current mess is here. For everyone such "leave" is something else...or tell me which option got majority in referendum ;-)
If majority of people support brexit than what do you fear? What is more democratic than exercising your rights by voting?
I don't "fear" anything: what I know is that you would simply ignore the result of any referendum which went against you - as you are currently doing. What amuses me is that you have the temerity to argue in favor of a "solution" which flagrantly stacks the probability of success firmly on the side with which you support.
September 09, 2019, 01:41 PM
Daruwind
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Parliament voted to force goverment to publish all info on no deal plans and advissor communication.
September 09, 2019, 02:19 PM
Alastor
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95thrifleman
He was cool, but his blatant anti-brexit position rather undermined the neutrality of his post.
From what I have seen at least he wasn't anti-Brexit per se as much as he was pro-parliament and since parliament is decisively anti-no-deal-Brexit, as clearly shown last week, it only makes sense his actions would be perceived as in support of that. Now obviously that annoyed the Brexiteers big time, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if BoJo, if he is still PM, denies him the customary Lords induction. But it doesn't mean he undermined his post. If anything, he consistently defended parliament against a hostile government as one would expect the speaker of that body to do.
September 09, 2019, 03:36 PM
Dante Von Hespburg
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95thrifleman
You are being too partisan I think. Bojo isn't repeating any mistakes.
All of this was planned for and expected, whoever took over from May it would be the same. The EU have stated they will not change the deal and they know parliment will avoid no deal.
All of this is electioneering with Bojo securing the brexit vote while trying to split the remain vote between lib dems and labour. Proroguing parlimet has given him chance to get 5 weeks without worrying about labour tabling anything while they have the advantage.
The situation that brought down may will never change without an election and that is what it is about right now. Bojo and Corbyn both competing to get the election called on their terms and their timetable.
Some good points here, i think though where Boris has repeated May's mistake is the over-reliance on a small select group of advisers at the expense of building bridges with his wider party. A big part of the resignations, but also apparently the growing anger at him from Cabinet Ministers like Gove and Javid and co - who actually have been holding their own private meetings with othjers without Boris and Cummings present, is that instead of discussing plans with them, he's simply holed up with Cummings (and to my shame the second adviser whose name i cannot remember) and is making policy in this vacuum. Something that has rather cost him so far.
Absolutely right though about the jostling for the 'perfect date'.
The issue for Boris is the polls the longer it goes on for (and given his recent statements and moves) the worse its getting for him it seems:
Our latest Westminster voting intention for @BritainElects CON 31% (-)LAB 27% (-)LDM 20% (+4)BRX 13% (-3)GRN 3% (-1)Other 5% (-1)4th - 6th Sept(Changes from ComRes/@Telegraph poll, 13th August 2019)Full data tables here: http://bit.ly/2kzA8PK
it'll be interesting to see more next week, but Boris's rhetoric has seemingly not been resonating well so far, also i suspect the 'battle for the soul of the Tory party' is driving some traditional Tory voters away...some even to Labour so it would seem. That's a problem as if Boris somehow makes himself as 'Toxic' as Corbyn is to moderates, then he's lost the one advantage he might have (and lets face it, Boris is just a polarizing as Corbyn- hence the FT's articles i posted with banks, finance and big business actually favouring Corbyn's socialism over Boris currently).
It seems @Ep1c_fail's point about the mirth of another hung parliament will potentially be the most likely case now, i'll be right there laughing too as i don't think a GE has any real hope of settling things, certainly not in any kind of permanent way
Current polling has the Tories short iirc of being able to form a majority, Labour slightly further from that goal, and the Brexit party get no seats even on 13%. A Labour lib-dem coalition of course would see the trick done...but Christ, the lib-dems have actually moved slightly to the 'right' and Corbyn is very much on the left- beyond brexit there is 0 common ground. Its not like the days when Blair was in 1998 actually in talks with Pashdown about the lib-dems merging with him and joining his cabinet (Would seriously recommend Campbell's diaries to anyone interested in New Labour if you haven't already gobbled them up- for a guy who admits he's left the most damaging bits out to Labour... it makes you wonder just how damaging they must have been :P)
Anyway I suspect for Boris to want a GE before the 31st is now kinda suicide for him politically, he hasn't played his hand well and he's actually misused some of his strongest cards already (The stuff about overriding Parliament did not go down well, especially as his own Party attacked him as seen with his Justice Minister just yesterday and the growing anger from the rest of Cabinet who are involved in a tug of war with Cummings now over Boris it seems), will while still of course surprises can happen, particularly once the campaign gets going (2017 anyone :P), but he's now not at all starting from a strong position.
September 09, 2019, 04:09 PM
Morticia Iunia Bruti
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
After a Missing Majority: The Rediscovery of May's Plans
In Dublin Boris Johnson suggests more conciliatory tones than last. He even brings an old border solution back into play. But his opponents still do not trust him.
The words that British Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar found in Dublin on Monday sounded like they were back in the past year or the year before. He continues to believe that a "deal" is possible, Varadkar said. Johnson, in turn, assured he would "by far prefer a withdrawal agreement." He went so far as to say that leaving without a deal would reflect a "failure of statecraft" that would be shared by all sides. With all the diplomacy and tactics that both leaders put into their statements, there seemed to be almost a hint of hope in the air.
That was also because Johnson is currently testing an option that could serve as a bridgehead for a new compromise. After initially demanding that the "backstop" be completely removed from the exit agreement with the European Union, he now seems to be exploring changes.
A model is now being discussed that resembles the "first" backstop that was initially negotiated and then rejected by Theresa May: until the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), without which May had no government majority, vetoed it, there was emergency arrangement with the European Union limited only on the Irish island. In principle, it provided that there should be no change between the Republic of Ireland, which belongs to the EU, and Northern Ireland after a Brexit.
Where Johnson could go for a vote
Both parts should remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland should respect most of the product standards of the European Single Market. That would have left the border invisible on the island, but created a new trade border between Northern Ireland and the UK. Not only the DUP, but also the "Unionists" in the Conservative Party described it as unacceptable and as an attack on the territorial sovereignty of the United Kingdom. That's why the backstop was extended to the entire kingdom.
The advantage of the old model, however, is that the British - without the nearly two million Northern Irish - could go their own trade routes - one of the core demands of Brexiteers. Johnson's negotiator in Brussels, David Frost, is said to have introduced the possibility of overall Irish product standards in the agri-food industry last week. According to information from Dublin, this would only affect one third of the border traffic, but further ideas in the direction of a "Northern Ireland only Backstop" are now considered possible.
Johnson has lost the majority in the house of commons and now needs votes from all sides of the house, he wanted to bring a deal until 19 October on the hurdles. An agreement with a backstop limited in Northern Ireland - plus a few more facsimile corrections - would cost him the support of the DUP, as well as cast-Brexiteers' votes, but he might also gain some votes from Labor MPs who rejected their rejection of the Mayor. Meanwhile regret deals. "The question is whether this exchange will add up to a majority," commented the New Statesman commentator Stephen Bush on Monday.
It seems Johnson is now trying a NI only Backstop (again)...
One step forward, 3 backwards. ;)
September 09, 2019, 04:14 PM
Dante Von Hespburg
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
I can see that very much as a possibility (ever since Boris stated that it was only the backstop he was seeking to renegotiate). He doesn't need the DUP anymore as he's literally lost his majority even with them, and would probably now be able to get support from other areas from the house for a May deal MK.2, which i know is something many others have stated in this thread too. It'll be interesting to see what happens, particularly if as i've outlined in my previous post that a GE doesn't look so desirable to Boris anymore as it seems unlikely to return a majority and may even see him ousted.
September 09, 2019, 04:16 PM
Morticia Iunia Bruti
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
AND WE COULD HAVE HAD IT MONTHS BEFORE... ;)
If May had seeked a broad consensus in the house of commons and made compromises with Labour.
Such a big thing like Brexit was never a one party business.
September 09, 2019, 05:43 PM
Ludicus
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
I'm watching the debate. Just a few minutes ago, a Scottish MP said quite clearly and categorically that Scotland will stay in the EU, no matter what happens.
September 09, 2019, 05:57 PM
Cope
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludicus
I'm watching the debate. Just a few minutes ago, a Scottish MP said quite clearly and categorically that Scotland will stay in the EU, no matter what happens.
Which is as empty a threat as the PM's refusal to adhere to the the exit extension legislation.
September 10, 2019, 05:57 AM
caratacus
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ep1c_fail
Which is as empty a threat as the PM's refusal to adhere to the the exit extension legislation.
Or perhaps his promise to leave without a deal?
Quote:
Johnson tells Varadkar no-deal Brexit 'would be a failure' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49608822
A no-deal Brexit would be a failure that both the British and Irish governments would be responsible for, Boris Johnson has said.
The prime minister was in Dublin for his first meeting with Irish PM Leo Varadkar since he entered Number 10.
Meanwhile elsewhere in the news which always makes for depressing reading. Theresa May awards advisers with Knighthoods for "public service". You know, the ones that led to the loss of the Conservative majority in an election that wasn't required and their hand in putting together her disastrous Brexit deal.
I see though that as can be expected, this is cleverly buried in the headlines by awarding Geoffrey Boycott with a knighthood and then circulating comments on social media about his past conviction for abuse and assault of his ex girlfriend 25 years ago. The Yorkshireman and Brexitteer responds in his usual bombastic way, by saying he "couldn't give a toss" which must have them slapping their hands with glee. Well done for the lady who was famously pictured wearing a T-shirt reading "this is what a feminist looks like"!
Quote:
Theresa May's former comms recieves knighthood as other PR figures are hnoured. https://www.prweek.com/article/15961...gures-honoured
Theresa May's former comms director Robbie Gibb and ex-spokesman James Slack have been honoured in the former Prime Minister's Resignation Honours.
This is precisely this type of practice that discredits the honours system, a criticism which has been raised many times before and yet is continually ignored by the occupants of no 10 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cy-553107.html
And finally John Bercow the controversial Commons Speaker who ‘ bias against the UK leaving the EU has been foremost in contributing to the political mess the Country now finds itself in, is stepping down before the next election so another figure of the same persuasion, can be selected by the present Remain majority parliament who facilitated it.
Quote:
John Bercow accused of 'gaming the system' to ensure successor is chosen by an anti-Brexit Parliament https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...r-chosen-anti/
John Bercow, the man who used the office of Speaker to frustrate Brexit, has been accused of “gaming the system” to ensure his successor is chosen by a Remain-backing Parliament.
Mr Bercow will stand down on Oct 31 - the day Britain is due to leave the EU - meaning the next Speaker will be chosen by the current crop of MPs, of whom more than two thirds voted Remain.
Brexiteers reacted with fury, saying Mr Bercow had once again demeaned the supposedly impartial role of Speaker in order to stamp his own personal politics on the nation’s future.
September 10, 2019, 06:04 AM
95thrifleman
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
This is the basic problem. The British people voted to leave the EU while the establishment want to remain.
In all honesty this has made a joke of democracy.
September 10, 2019, 06:40 AM
Alastor
Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95thrifleman
This is the basic problem. The British people voted to leave the EU while the establishment want to remain.
In all honesty this has made a joke of democracy.
The same establishment that voted down May's backstop because it wasn't hard-Brexit enough? No I don't think it's that simple.
Parliament has failed yes, but not because it went against the referendum, it failed because it called that referendum in the first place. This was never a decision that any parliament should have willy-nilly divested itself of and thrown at their electorate. Parliament should have had the guts to steer the country as it owed to do, the vision to lead. The UK has a representative democratic system, not a direct one. To paraphrase Edmund Burke, your MP owes you not only his industry, but also his judgement and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion. The failure of parliament has little to do with it being pro-brexit or pro-remain and more to do with an unwillingness to take responsibility coupled with petty partisanship, political opportunism and base self-interest.