Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

First of all I would like to say thank you, for putting your time and effort into this great mod, knowing that this mod was in development was one of the reasons why I decided to buy Shogun. I have voted for this Mod and for the creator in the Mod of the year award. The following comments are not intended to criticise, but to improve the content of the mod. I only briefly started campaigns, most of these bugs are from custom games and selection screens. I haven't installed any mods previously.

Major Bugs

• Sengoku musket cavalry deploy and move standing on top of their horses. When told to fire they levitate in the air, and don't fire. The only member that fires is the officer who has a bow which nevertheless fires as a musket.
• Bow armed Sengoku ships are unable to fire.
• Porando Kihei Yari and some other Saber cavalry units deploy to battle without horses.
• Many of the marines on board Boshin ships seem unable to fire.
• Sengoku Teppo ashigaru require an art to recruit but there are no arts. A similar situation is in place with some of the larger Sengoku ships, and Ikko bow monks which require an archery dojo when none is available to be built. The training facilities require cotton.
• Kokujin don't seem to be implemented.
• The Ikko second harbour upgrade is able to be completed in only one turn and has no description.
• None of the starting units or generals have experience.
• Many settlements start the game with no or one unit present so almost immediatly fall into revolt.
• The Ikko in custom battle have a Spearman that uses the Light Cavalry unit card. When you hold the mouse over it, it darkens the screen. It has no name on the battlefield or campaign.
• Geisha are still in the game?

Minor/Cosmetic Bugs

• Original Shogun named generals are in the custom selection screen. In battle they are vanilla Generals.
• Ikko and Iga have vanilla Generals, in the selection screen contain they have vanilla descriptions.
• Many vanilla descriptions superior heroes, vanilla campaign objectives, Tokugawa has the Obama map etc
• Choosing to launch benchmark makes the game hang indefinitely.
• Fots Cavalry bugle sound for some Sengoku land and ship units.
• Yari using captains carry huge Tridents
• Naginta Gennin and Shigan hei have the same unit stats
• Kyutei move at cavalry speed
• In the custom battle selection screen Some of the Sengoku light ships are duplicated
• Its really cool to see the Daisho (Twin swords) implemented however some of the unit choices which are equipped with this are strange: Nanban yari, Kaizoku, Bow/Teppo Ashigaru, Boshin Artillery crewmen. Units which dont carry: Nagamaki samurai, Some of the Boshin police units.
• With the exception of the Ikko all factions seem to be able to recruit Akazone everywhere
• In Sengoku everywhere has white borders

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dom9127

I have voted for this Mod and for the creator in the Mod of the year award.

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Thank you for your support and the detailed error report.
Now I can efficiently hunt those bugs.

I have been getting deeper into the campaign and have some more updates.

Bugs

• Oban have slightly worse stats than regular yari Cavalry
• Nodachi are not able for recruitment in Satsuma
• The second harbour for all factions seems to be broken can be built in only one turn and has no description
• All campaign factions appear to have vanilla generals not equipped with yari
• Garrison troops have no experience
• Jizamurai Kihei Iga sokou Iga able to be recruited by all factions
• Archers who are in front of the defending walls cannot fire
• Bow ashigaru equipped with the Daisho
• The Shogitai runnning action is bugged

Suggestions / Questions

• Consider making the rocket unit smaller
• The Jizamurai cavalry have a mail sleeve texture. Perhaps you could use this to make a Kusari mail shirt. It was especially popular in the Edo/Boshin period and could be used for lower ranking troops in Sengoku.
• All Genpei foot units have accuracy 10 whilst Cavalry units have accuracy 20?
• Firearm units have 30 shots double, the ammunition of bowmen? In Europe at the time the Spanish who were considered to have one of the best logistical corps usually only equipped there soldiers with 20 shot. More info here http://militaryrevolution.s3.amazona...shSoldiers.pdf
• Everybody has the minimum infrastructure. I feel that the largest settlements of the time should have better developed castles. But Citadels should be limited
• Why are the Boshin police units so small?
• Diplomacy/ faction renown should not be neutral. Playing as the Oda, Mori etc Should result in more factions fearing you and realm divide occurring sooner. It will also help the balance of starting with so much land. Consider making Tokugawa an Oda vassal.
• Cavalry should be more expensive, at the moment they are an equivalent price
• You need to adjust the building time, agent and General points gain in relation to the 24tpy time. At the moment it is too easy to build infrastructure and gain points.
• Consider adjusting the ship cost and build time. Now there is almost no ship building.

General Suggestions

• Have you considered asking for a hosted forum? I feel it would get your mod far more attention, and your mod definitely is a "Major Modification".
• You should consider updating the first post. The Installation information and release date is now outdated. There is now four pack files and two 7zip archives

Really enjoying the mod so far.

Can someone please link me to the most recent build. I'm not sure which one it is.

There is only one version: the one on nextcloud.
I might upload an update in several hours which fixes some of the flaws mentioned above.


Progress is slow as I need to find out the following facts:
- which clan held which territories
- which clan shall control a province (the Shogun II map lacks many provinces and there can only be one castle per province unlike Nobunaga's Ambition 14)
- how many officers should each clan get and which ones?
- what about family members?


Some ideas for Sengoku Jidai reforms:
Cotton Industry: more money from commercial district
Cupellation: gold mines become lucrative
Flood Control: more money from farms
Kantou Cavalry Drill: Kantou cavalry is slightly superior
Land Reclamation: more money from farms
Otogi-Zoshi: moralistic stories calm the rich
Rakuichi Rakuza: free markets, free trade -> more money from commercial districts
Rengashi: vulgar poetry calms the masses
Suggestion Box: feigning interest in the people's oppinion calms the masses
Sumo Sponsorship: entertainment
Tea Ceremonies: resupply rate of soldiers slighty increases (it's a kind of simple trauma therapy)
Tenka Fubu: minor morale buff for Oda clan


There will also be new building chains for the Sengoku Jidai. This means you can play the tutorial as intended and it makes changing values easier for me. Besides, some building chains will be bigger (5 farm levels instead of 4, 5 commercial district levels etc.).


Due to the UI issues with dynamic unit caps for every single unit, I will test reducing them to two pools:
a single ashigaru pool + a single samurai pool (includes jizamurai for Iga and Ikko).

Those sound like some great ideas. I don't know how historically accurate it is but there is a mod (by the Morning Sun Mod team I think) which edits the map and adds a bunch of new provinces, maybe it's creators would be willing to share their work with you if your interested (I know they have got many other mods). Good luck with your mod, it looks very promising.

EDIT: Nevermind, my mistake. Should've read the description.

what is it? How to can install it

Thanks for putting time and effort into this great mod. I have just finished a Sengoku short campaign as the Shimazu on medium/medium, with the build you released on November 1st and I have a number of observations and suggestions.

Campaign

Economy

The campaign was difficult at first due to the low starting funds but got substantially easier, by the time I had conquered Kyushu I was so wealthy that money was no object and I had no problems with rice. This was without building all the improvements, only building one trade ship and only creating one metsuke. At this point I decided not to build very much, with the exception of two full stacks of units that I used to win the game and agents.

I think that buildings are too cheap and too easy to construct and consequently incomes are too high. Trade income is also very high. Because there is no tech tree, and rice is so plentiful its very easy to max out every province. Units are also incredibly cheap, especially cavalry and musket units, this leads the AI to build incredibly Cavalry heavy armies with often six units or more in a stack. The high rice and Damiyo honour and easy temple construction meant I only had to put large garrisons in heavily Christianized provinces.


Diplomacy / AI


I was surprised at the stability and reasonableness of the AI. The AI made Alliances and trade deals that lasted to the end of the game, was keen to offer trade deals to me and was not overly aggressive. After facing a heavy battlefield defeat the AI offered peace, and accepted vassalage after losing battles and territory. I think the game ended too quickly to experience the realm divide civil war. I believe the Major factions are too passive. With the exception of the Oda, who collapsed within the first couple of turns, and the Takeda who blitzed some of the surrounding minors towards the the final turns, they all failed to expand and hold their territory. And with the exception of the Hojo (who built equitably) all of the factions heavily developed their capital province but only slowly built in their other provinces (or until they were attacked by me). The worse offenders were the Uesegi who were completely passive and failed to build armies or develop their provinces. This led to the minor factions doing much of the fighting, for example the Ashikaga shogunate captured two provinces.The AI also seemed to have difficulty maintaining hold of provinces, facing many rebellions which led to many re-emergent factions. Re-emerged factions were also passive diplomatically, failing to make trade deals or Alliances. The enemy also seemed reluctant to attack rebel provinces, meaning some of them remained rebel controlled for most of the game, weak and unable to retrain or rebuild, but left unthreatened. Because top level buildings are easy to build and experience can be gained quickly, high level agents play a major role, the enemy successfully bribed some of my armies and I was constantly attacked by high level monks and Ninja.


Battles

I really appreciate the changes you have made to make battles more realistic, however as it stands there are still a number of issues. Morale is incredibly fragile, to the extent that the combat section of battles is of similar duration to vanilla, most of my battles had also a similar casualty rate 80% - 90% for the enemy 10% - 15% for me. Units just rout too easily, I think the penalties for being flanked, being isolated, and under fire is what triggers many of the chain routs. I have experienced some really strange results with this system, for example multiple units chain routing mere metres before charging in to my line, and full strength Cavalry chasing routing units only to then rout when they put up resistance. Cavalry in general are of limited use, incredibly vulnerable to missile fire and routing after taking 10 casualties or so. I believe the small units sizes intensify this problem as its very easy to take casualties, also currently the battles are incredibly small, rather than reflecting the huge clashes of Sekigahara etc.

Another consequence of this, is that Siege battles are almost impossible for the assaulter. One province experienced constant Christian revolts, but I was able to continuously win with just the garrison and first level fort, after this I decided to play with a house rule to autoresolve sieges where I was the defender.

Archers need to be able to fire faster, far out pacing musketry, at the moment there is a limited need to field them.

I don't have extensive opinions on naval combat as I only experienced one battle, and ships were not able to use archery. Though why did you remove the battle speed abilty? The AI used it, and its not unrealistic or able to be exploited.

I feel many of these issues will have been intensified by the campaign bugs/flaws, for example chain routs occur due to the fact that many armies are mainly composed of garrison troops and campaign starter units with no experience as their main battle line. Cavalry is cheap so the AI wants to field, cavalry heavy armies. Teppo ashigaru are untrainable etc


Suggestions

• I believe that the upkeep of generals should be reduced to zero to help the AI.
• I think you should tweak loyalty, as civil wars and shifting alliances played a major role in the period but are for the most part absent in the game, because Loyalty is so high. I think you should lower the power of Damiyo honour as it makes both provinces and generals very loyal.
• I think you should reduce the power of the govern settlement action, of Metsuke as it is too lucrative.
• I think you need to revise religion as at the moment it has an incredible growth rate, and the ease of building temples means that Ikko and Christianity don't have much opportunity for disruption.
• The Ikko factor should be removed from buildings. I think the current "class conflict" model is interesting, but in reality it was a phenomena that was limited to central Japan, and had more to do with the absence of authority rather than the development of industry.
• Reduce the garrison in the first level fort
• Reduce the amount of Samurai you can field. I was able to make three stacks (enough to win the game) composed solely from samurai. Maybe putting a cap of around 25 on Samurai (which could be increased with the Tech tree) might lead to more balanced armies?
• No Nanban Teppo?
• No Yari / Naginta Ronin?
• Increase the amount of pirate activity
• Increase the accuracy of catapults, a unit of mine used all its ammunition but failed to hit the tenshu once
• Consider adjusting the generals skill tree.

Bugs

• Any units that don't require recruitment (Generals, Garrison, vassal, units from event, rebels) have no experience.
• Ships have no starting experience
• Many ships unbuildable
• You can build multiple Nihon marus
• Bow ashigaru can use flaming missiles outside of sieges
• Nanban yari recruitable without Christianity
• Leased land should be destroyed when you capture the settlement
• Accuracy bonus from lacquerware still exists
• Sohei tetsubo have no description
• You cant build bow Sohei
• It's possible to recruit all the Sohei after building one Buddhist temple
• Still getting legendary accomplishment for building top tier buildings
• Ashikaga sashimono is very different from the faction symbol
• Buzen seems to suffer a disproportionate amount of events

Here are some screenshots corrobating some of my comments


Attachment 342073Attachment 342074Attachment 342075Attachment 342076

Thank you very much for that detailed report. This feedback allows me to greatly improve the game.

Currently, I'm falling back to the old combat mechanics as I can't change the experience level of garrisons and starting units. This means quality levels will be back.
In order to make things easier for the AI, I'm playing around with a cohesion system (fatigue recovers much faster and doesn't penalize the AI too much).
I'm also testing JaM's new morale system which addresses the "flanking penalty although you're attacked from the front" bug.

Hi there! I've tried a few mods from S2 thread (DMS, Radious) and found, that yours pretty close to real combat (in my opinion ofc)! :thumbsup2 I want to show this video, mb it helps someway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avQSA4TVAS8. It's a modification for NTW, named «Peace and War» (not an ad, it's a little buggy and only available in Russian). I've found a great balance there: very slow & harsh battles (pretty bad firing, infantry & cavalry moves very realistic, take a look please), low morale of troops (same as in your mod) and small losses on battle map vs. quite big «in-field» (if player left his armies outside of towns on turn end).

I tried the mod yesterday with a few rounds of modern vs sengoku custom battles. I'd like to know if it's normal that modern line regiments have just 75 men or 112 men? Everything I read on this thread so far suggest that the line infs should have 300 men. Also, I can't remember its name, but a particular line inf unit wears what look suspiciously like ninja garments (they carry ammo pouches on their waist, though) I wonder if it's a bug?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moknin

I tried the mod yesterday with a few rounds of modern vs sengoku custom battles. I'd like to know if it's normal that modern line regiments have just 75 men or 112 men? Everything I read on this thread so far suggest that the line infs should have 300 men. Also, I can't remember its name, but a particular line inf unit wears what look suspiciously like ninja garments (they carry ammo pouches on their waist, though) I wonder if it's a bug?

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You'll need to turn up unit sizes in the options or your preferences files if you want larger units. I can't remember what I usually play with, but I prefer less than 300 men in a unit.

The ninja line you're thinking of may be the Shinsegumi, some Samurai and Ronin that fought for the Shogun. I think the point of the unit is to be a traditional rifle unit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

You'll need to turn up unit sizes in the options or your preferences files if you want larger units.

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Thanks, I turned the unit size to ultra and this time the biggest line reg become 200 men. I am still unable to get it into 300 men. Perhaps I have to also change something in the preference script? ( if so, please tell me which line it is.)

btw, is it possible to make guard mode turn on by default?

Go to your scripts folder, open the preferences file inside and then find "campaign_unit_mult" and then change the number next to it. I think Ultra is 1. So setting the number to two is twice ultra.

And there's a way to make each unit have guard mode turned on, but you'd have to edit each unit individually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moknin

Thanks, I turned the unit size to ultra and this time the biggest line reg become 200 men. I am still unable to get it into 300 men.

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Line infantry consists of 200 men in 2 rows. The missing 100 men are serving in a different unit named light infantry acting as skirmishers (they can't compete with sharpshooters though, but are harder to hit than line infantry).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moknin

btw, is it possible to make guard mode turn on by default?

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There is a guard flag in unit_stats_land table.

Hello! Please, could u tell me that, do i need to add any .pack files to user.script? Thanks!

The mod is self-loading as long as it stays in the data folder.

Just caught on to this project, and I've been enjoying what ice experienced. Great work! I'm glAd it's still ongoing. As recommended before, this mod should really hAve it's own hub as it is a serious damn overhaul worth having as many eyeballs on it as possible, but I understand that's still in beta and a WIP. Looking forward to future versions.

Also really like how the ashigaru look now. Nice variations. They look like solid foot soldiers rather than levies.

I found the removal of the faction traits initially off putting, but have come to accept and respect this design decision. I kind of like the equality that it brings across the board.

Concerning the Sengoku campaign, had progress been mAde in updating the daimyo and general characters?

Keep up the great work!

I have a couple of questions regarding Date:
1. Harumune has Masamune's model (eyepatch).
2. Harumune should be an old man, but he is young in game.
3. Terumune should be an adult, but he is a baby in game.
4. Masamune should be a baby, but he doesn't exist in game.