The book calls them fanatics, I don't have any issue with what the Fremen are, and am not invested in he book either so don't particularly care what the movie names them (btw, they don't really exist, Mishkin, so it's ok really).
You’re gonna have to realize, by mishkin’s post, the plot of Dune as a series is a bit complex. Go read the 6 Herbert books. You either like them or not, but it’s at least interesting. And it’s not merely Islam. The main book for god’s sake is the “OC Bible” which is much more expanded than the current bible apparently.
Have fun.
September 16, 2020, 07:23 PM
Kyriakos
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Ok, I'll go read books I don't feel like reading cause some random told me to in a forum.
September 16, 2020, 10:00 PM
Gaidin
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyriakos
Ok, I'll go read books I don't feel like reading cause some random told me to in a forum.
You've been ranting.
Go do research. Go form an opinion.
Or not.
Until you do, you're kinda sidelined for not really understanding what's going on in the story but trying to act like you do.
September 17, 2020, 01:53 AM
Vladyvid
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
I dont think the movie audience is required to read the books. Is this movie only for the book readers? I dont have time for books, but i do enjoy a cool sci-fi movie. Anyone who read the book and thinks of themselves as superior is just funny.
September 17, 2020, 02:05 AM
mishkin
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
I saw the original Dune before reading the books and I really enjoyed it.
I don't think anyone here confuses having a broader vision or more knowledge about a very specific (and banal) topic with being superior to anyone.
September 17, 2020, 09:09 AM
Cyclops
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyriakos
Don't worry, in the new film it is called "crusade".
I looked at the trailer again and there are a few changes in there, so my first post was needlessly effusive. Crusade for Jihad is an obvious one.
Its interesting to note the changes in language. There's a suicide mission in Book IIRC where a single Fremem takes control of an aircraft and crashes it (oh no). The Fedeykin are similr to Fedayeen ("sarificed") including the Palestinian terrorist/freedom fighters who relentlessly attack Israel. Herbert was a bit of an edgelord but he was seeking I think complexity and a sense of a culturally diverse universe, which I honestly think he achieved. There's lots of moments of cultural misunderstanding familiar from "Islamic encounter" books like Burton Lawrence and Doughty.
These days these terms and Jihad/fanatic (and both terms are used in the book IIRC) resonate very differently. In the 1960's the taste was very different and Villeneuves choices will be worth making note of given the political and cultural changes since 9/11.
In the 1980's there was a song by Rose Tattoo called I Wish.
The lyrics are a bit confused: there's a lot of intense feelings of sadness but also a bit of war-worship, he seems to regret the hurt in Ireland and Poland but also wants to be a soldier in El Salvador (its unclear on what side though). At one point he says "I wish I was a hero, fighting for the rights of men/I wish I was a tribesman, in the hills of Afghanistan". Plays very differently these days too.
Old mate Tolkien ran into a similar problem with LoTR. Its uses a lot of Germanic and Norse imagery, as did the Nazis. People spotted this and JRR was sort of backed into a corner and claimed in some letters (I think think quite dishonestly) by busybodies who worked it it was all rather pagan (and not a little Teutonic) "oh no its all very Christian indeed". The only thing vaguely Judeo Christian in LoTR is the dwarves (he says himself in another, slightly more honest letter they are a sort of Judaic people) who have myths about a reincarnated King Durin. In the Silmarillion (FWIW, dustbin trash that it is) they are the lesser creations of a lesser Valar, suggesting if anything YHWH was a sort of tradesmen to the Gods who went over his paygrade.
Its very possible to enjoy Dune with these elements in mind but it remains to be seen how much Villenueve bends the story and the language to accommodate easily triggered US audiences.
September 17, 2020, 09:10 AM
Halie Satanus
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishkin
I don't think anyone here confuses having a broader vision or more knowledge about a very specific (and banal) topic with being superior to anyone.
You must be new here. :p
September 17, 2020, 09:22 AM
Gaidin
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladyvid
I dont think the movie audience is required to read the books. Is this movie only for the book readers? I dont have time for books, but i do enjoy a cool sci-fi movie. Anyone who read the book and thinks of themselves as superior is just funny.
Go read his posts again. He's posting like he knows what the book says. And then gets called on his lack of knowledge from the books. And then says he won't go read the books.
That's different from being a movie audience.
He's sidelining himself.
September 17, 2020, 09:50 AM
Kyriakos
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
I am pretty sure I am not the legitimate topic of the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
I looked at the trailer again and there are a few changes in there, so my first post was needlessly effusive. Crusade for Jihad is an obvious one.
Its interesting to note the changes in language. There's a suicide mission in Book IIRC where a single Fremem takes control of an aircraft and crashes it (oh no). The Fedeykin are similr to Fedayeen ("sarificed") including the Palestinian terrorist/freedom fighters who relentlessly attack Israel. Herbert was a bit of an edgelord but he was seeking I think complexity and a sense of a culturally diverse universe, which I honestly think he achieved. There's lots of moments of cultural misunderstanding familiar from "Islamic encounter" books like Burton Lawrence and Doughty.
I have watched some of his interviews, he is quite edgy, indeed. But also funny, in my view :D
September 17, 2020, 11:47 AM
mishkin
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Maybe Herbert had a great imagination but not a great brain. Maybe he imagined a tremendously attractive world for many without being exactly a genius. ### happens, gems appear "out of nowhere" too
I'm sure it will be a great movie (or series of movies) and would be extra awesome in my opinion if Villaneuve keeps the screams (they don't appear in the books)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
September 18, 2020, 10:41 PM
Kyriakos
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
At least the Harkonnens will be a lot better in this movie than in the Lynch version. In Lynch I could barely stand Vladimir, and he was the best of the three there - although female viewers may disagree :)
The 2000 tv series had a better Vladimir and a better Sting Feyd Harkonnen. Rabban also was better by default, cause in Lynch he was just comedic.
The Rabban in the new film looks awesome.
September 19, 2020, 12:45 PM
Gaidin
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Oh man, Sting was awesome, though they did nail the characters better in the 2000 series. For all the costumes were god damn ridiculous. They nailed the plotting nature of the Baron for his...sheer...ugliness.
Lynch's story was a bunch of wtf forever, but it nailed about a half dozen scenes to the point of being iconic Dune to this day.
October 06, 2020, 09:30 PM
Knight of Heaven
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
It has been delayed a year. It will open in the theaters on October 2021.
October 09, 2020, 05:38 AM
Vladyvid
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Yeah we will see, the situation is too unpredictable.
October 09, 2020, 07:47 AM
Common Soldier
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin
Oh man, Sting was awesome, though they did nail the characters better in the 2000 series. For all the costumes were god damn ridiculous. They nailed the plotting nature of the Baron for his...sheer...ugliness.
Lynch's story was a bunch of wtf forever, but it nailed about a half dozen scenes to the point of being iconic Dune to this day.
That movie version of Dune was bad, in large part because of unnecessary voice overs that unnecessarily told you what the person was thinkng when i really didn't add anything and many times were u necessary.
Dune is away overrated book in my opinion. There are so many elements that are forced, and rhe idea that if you.hit a shield with a laser would cause a nuclear like explosion in the book was just thrown in to justify using knives in fighting. The movie actually did a better job than the book in justifying the use of knive fighting in a future technological society - personal shields blocked energy weapons and high speed projectiles but allowed slow moving things like knives to get through (otherwise a person with a shield could not turn a door knob).
The is that the Fremen xould just conquer the galaxy like the medieval Arabs did wasn't not believable for a second, and Herberts analogy to the ancient Arab just was just too heavy handed. Plus I don't find credible that people would abandoned a technology as useful as computers. In its way, I found Dune as forced as the The Last Jedi, using several Deus ex machina devices without which the story falls apart. Having to use several Deusnex machina devices in a story is just lazy writing.
October 10, 2020, 01:33 PM
conon394
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
That movie version of Dune was bad, in large part because of unnecessary voice overs that unnecessarily told you what the person was thinkng when i really didn't add anything and many times were u necessary.
Dune is away overrated book in my opinion. There are so many elements that are forced, and rhe idea that if you.hit a shield with a laser would cause a nuclear like explosion in the book was just thrown in to justify using knives in fighting. The movie actually did a better job than the book in justifying the use of knive fighting in a future technological society - personal shields blocked energy weapons and high speed projectiles but allowed slow moving things like knives to get through (otherwise a person with a shield could not turn a door knob).
The is that the Fremen xould just conquer the galaxy like the medieval Arabs did wasn't not believable for a second, and Herberts analogy to the ancient Arab just was just too heavy handed. Plus I don't find credible that people would abandoned a technology as useful as computers. In its way, I found Dune as forced as the The Last Jedi, using several Deus ex machina devices without which the story falls apart. Having to use several Deusnex machina devices in a story is just lazy writing.
Lazy perhaps or maybe just over the top. But sometimes some useful points. I know I think It was Dune that I recalled when tried to write a rational explanation for why so many people still had jobs in the Traveller/Mega Traveller Universe. Basically AI were simply to dangerous and invariably turned on people (essentially house rule cut AIs and human like robots out of the game). But doing that I don't think requires no computers at all just a sorty of general sensce to keep thm AI and automation in its place.
Not sure how you could remove the voice over since the books as written its full of voice over.
October 10, 2020, 03:49 PM
Gaidin
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
Originally Posted by conon394
Lazy perhaps or maybe just over the top. But sometimes some useful points. I know I think It was Dune that I recalled when tried to write a rational explanation for why so many people still had jobs in the Traveller/Mega Traveller Universe. Basically AI were simply to dangerous and invariably turned on people (essentially house rule cut AIs and human like robots out of the game). But doing that I don't think requires no computers at all just a sorty of general sensce to keep thm AI and automation in its place.
It's not really something for a rational explanation when the war against the machines spawns a religion that spawns a new commandment in the OC Bible. Picture the Machine War of Terminator on a Galactic Scale. Now picture humanity's response once they won and were staring at the rubble. 10,000 years later the religion is history, but the certain parts of the culture. Thall shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind. Is not.
October 10, 2020, 04:23 PM
saxdude
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Quote:
Originally Posted by Common Soldier
That movie version of Dune was bad, in large part because of unnecessary voice overs that unnecessarily told you what the person was thinkng when i really didn't add anything and many times were u necessary.
Dune is away overrated book in my opinion. There are so many elements that are forced, and rhe idea that if you.hit a shield with a laser would cause a nuclear like explosion in the book was just thrown in to justify using knives in fighting. The movie actually did a better job than the book in justifying the use of knive fighting in a future technological society - personal shields blocked energy weapons and high speed projectiles but allowed slow moving things like knives to get through (otherwise a person with a shield could not turn a door knob).
The is that the Fremen xould just conquer the galaxy like the medieval Arabs did wasn't not believable for a second, and Herberts analogy to the ancient Arab just was just too heavy handed. Plus I don't find credible that people would abandoned a technology as useful as computers. In its way, I found Dune as forced as the The Last Jedi, using several Deus ex machina devices without which the story falls apart. Having to use several Deusnex machina devices in a story is just lazy writing.
No offence but this strikes me as missing the mountain for the pebble. The whole point of setting up the story as it is, was so that you don't waste time arguing over the technical
aspects of the universe.
It's like complaining about how obviously idiotic and convoluted the concept of lightsabers actually is.
October 10, 2020, 06:09 PM
Kyriakos
Re: Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming
Didn't Warhammer 40K essentially copy Dune? A number of things are very similar, to a suspicious degree (AI/tech downfall, strange warp/mental warp used for inter-star navigation, feudal society).
Watching Lynch's movie (but afaik it is the same in the book) it does seem pretty weird that a third world army (the Fremen) just defeated the emperor of the known universe. And ok, one could argue it was blackmail(Paul would kill the worms, and thus spice), but this doesn't explain the spread of Fremen to other planets - couldn't they just be gunned down by fleets? And if this was again just blackmail, why bother having warriors in the first place?
That said, the Atreides vs Harkonnen on Arrakis is also underwhelming - how can sides which control entire planets, just use a few thousand soldiers?
I mean, people like to say that Dune has lasguns, and 40k has lasguns. But when 40k puts in a rule that the lasgun sets off a nuclear explosion with the shields I'll be interested. A lasgun is nothing special. Dune has inter-star navigation for ftl space travel that the Spacing Guild has solved how to have their Navigators do the navigation without using computers for calculations and avoid breaking the OC Bible commandment against machines. 40k, well..has The Warp, or Immaterium, that you literally enter and travel through. Which literally causes stability problems with the people in it, and if used too much, with the universe around it.
And that's...well...just two things. We could go into the races that Dune doesn't have. Like Orcs. Necrons. Tyranids. T'au.
You're better off saying 40k cribbed some things off Dune(Navigators, God-Emperor, Anti-AI religion...etc), but then it takes these concepts and uses them in its own unique way. It also cribbed at least as much from Star Wars and Aliens, possibly Tolkienesque fantasy for that matter. But copy...
Quote:
Watching Lynch's movie (but afaik it is the same in the book)
Yea. Big no.
Fun movie, sort of a cult sci-fi classic in its right for reasons that, once and if you read the book you'll see. But, ehh...very different from the book.