Extended Tech Tree Submod v1.5

Expanded Tech Trees (name WiP) - a Fourth Age: Total War - Dominion of Men Submod

Note: this unofficial submod was made with FATW DoM 3.4 and the Huge Unit Patch. For this submod to work properly, the latter is optional, but the mod version is not.


Description
This submod aims to improve gameplay experience, particularly in longer campaigns, for all factions, but especially for the ones that have been considered “minor factions” (Beornings, Dorwinion, Far Harad, Harondor, Khand, North Rhûn, Rhovanion, Tharbad), which were previously lacking several late-game options, in particular specialization buildings. Most of the SB that were added are copied from other factions, however they are often different in what they do. Some of the major factions have also received small adjustments to improve gameplay or fill gaps.

Feature list (may be expanded for future releases)
- All factions can now construct specialisation buildings.
- Adjusted and/or expanded recruitment of certain units.
- Added a few new/retextured regional units: Dunlending Slingers (Dunland), Greenway Guards (Tharbad), and added Berserkers to North Rhûn and Vassal Macemen to RK.
- Retextured several existing units, including Rhovanion Nobles, Woodmen units, Dúnedanic sword and spear levies, Eastland Darkhelms, and Eriador regional units.

Installation Instructions (v1.5)
- Make sure you have the latest version of FATW installed (see above).
- There is no installer, the files will have to be copied into the [rome total war]\bi\fatw\data directory. They replace the export_descr_buildings (EDB) and export_descr_unit (EDU) in the main fatw data folder, the descr_models_battle, export_buildings and export_units files in the data\texts folder, and add some icons to the ui, models_unit, and sprites folders.
- If you wish to install the map changes for 1.3 and 1.4 (warning: not savegame compatible), you will also have to copy over the "world" folder with its contents. The good thing about there being no installer is that the map changes are optional.
- Make sure to create backups of your original files (currently, the text files named above, and the optional map changes) before replacing them, in case something goes wrong. The new data from the UI folder is additional and doesn't replace anything. - it it not necessary to install all versions of the submod, the latest version (currently 1.5) contains all relevant data.

Known issues (v1.4)
- The new Outposts SB is still lacking its proper icons and a picture (currently using pictures from another SB as a stand-in), because I’m bad at graphical modding.
- Some SB descriptions have not been updated yet.

Changelog
Asterisk (*) indicates dependence on a pre-existing building of another faction. As of now, minor factions still retain passive bonuses from SB built by major factions.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Multiple factions
Reworked skins for Eriador and Woodmen regional units to make them look prettier and less monochromatic. Added shield emblems to Dúnedain swordsmen and spearmen levies.

Adûnabâr
Can now build Royal Mint (same as Reunited Kingdom).

Beornings (use Rohan SB tree, with one building from Dale, one from Dunland, and a new SB)
Can now build Hunting Parties, Marshal’s Great Hall*, Trading Posts, and Military Garrisons (new military SB, name WiP).
War-dogs are now only available through the new SB to reduce late-game dog spam.
War-dogs and Beorning Axemen can be recruited in Fiefdom and Outland regions through the new garrison SB.
SB bonuses adjusted:
- Hunting Parties does not affect recruitment (yet)
- Marshal’s Great Hall does not affect recruitment

Dorwinion (uses Rohan SB tree, with one building from Dúnedain, another from Dale, and a new SB)
Can now build Military Garrisons, Gondorian Weaponsmiths, Marshal’s Great Hall, Terracing, and Trading Posts.
SB bonuses adjusted in order to reflect identity as an agricultural and mercantile power:
- most SB are cheaper to maintain
- Gondorian Weaponsmiths upkeep reduced, but only grants +1 armour
- Terracing grants you an additional, small trade bonus
- Marshal’s Great Hall does not affect recruitment

Dunland
Now loses access to more SB-bound native elites if switching to the Shadow Cult. This change affects Elite Pikemen, but not Hillmen. It reverses a change made in one of the later patches, which made some sense in specific campaign scenarios (switching alignment mid-game), but made the campaign less immersive and effectively punished the player for not going Cultic.
Dunlending Slingers (new unit) are now available. They require a Hillman Fort.
War-hounds are now only available through the Hillmen Forts SB to reduce late-game dog spam.

Far Harad (uses Harad SB tree)
Can now build Brotherhood of Assassins, Corsair Fortress, Inquisitor’s Network, Iron Foundry, Merchant Guild, and Mûmakil Training Ground.
SB bonuses adjusted in order to reflect identity as a nascent Southron power:
- most SB are cheaper to maintain (except for Mûmakil SB)
- Corsair Fortress grants you a small trade bonus, but access to only one Corsair unit
- Iron Foundry upkeep reduced, but only grants +1 armour
- experience bonuses to assassins and spies reduced compared to Harad

Harondor (uses Harad SB tree)
Can now build Brotherhood of Assassins*, Corsair Fortress, Judicial Network, Iron Foundry, Merchant Guild, and Mûmakil Training Ground.
SB bonuses adjusted in order to reflect identity as an agricultural and mercantile power:
- most SB are cheaper to maintain
- Corsair Fortress grants you a small trade bonus, but access to only one Corsair unit
- Iron Foundry upkeep reduced, but only grants +1 armour
- Judicial Network (derived from Inquisitor's Network) grants local and global law bonus
- Mûmakil SB does not unlock units, but speeds up construction faction-wide. It is also available independent of policy (but requires a t2 barracks)
- experience bonuses to assassins and spies reduced compared to Harad

Khand (uses Rhûn SB tree)
Can now build Cattle Trader, Fighting Pits, Hunting Lodges, Thrall Stockade, and Tributary Camps.
SB bonuses adjusted in order to reflect identity as a mostly nomadic, martial power:
- all SB are cheaper to maintain
- Fighting Pits provide fewer bonuses than for Rhûn, and spread Ways of Darkness alignment
- Hunting Lodges provide small law bonus, but no recruitment bonuses so far
- Thrall Stockade provides weaker bonuses
- Tributary Camps allow you to recruit Variag Warriors in Rhovanion and Rhûn

North Rhûn (uses Rhûn SB tree)
Can now build Cattle Trader, Fighting Pits, Hunting Lodges, and Thrall Stockade.
Can now train Berserkers from Fighting Pits (same as Chiefdom of Rhûn).
SB bonuses adjusted in order to reflect identity as a semi-nomadic, low-tech faction:
- all SB are cheaper to maintain
- Fighting Pits provide fewer bonuses than for Rhûn, and spread Ways of Darkness alignment
- Hunting Lodges provide small law bonus, but no recruitment bonuses so far
- Thrall Stockade provides weaker bonuses

Reunited Kingdom
Can now recruit Vassal Macemen (with custom unit skin) in Mordor.

Rhovanion (uses Rhûn SB tree, with one SB from Rohan)
Can now build Cattle Trader, Fighting Pits, Hunting Parties, and Warhorse Trainers.
Rhovanion Nobles (the bodyguard unit) now have a shield emblem.
SB bonuses adjusted in order to reflect identity as a semi-nomadic, low-tech faction:
- all SB are cheaper to maintain
- Fighting Pits provide fewer bonuses than for Rhûn, and spread Ways of Darkness alignment
- Hunting Lodges provide small law bonus, but no recruitment bonuses so far
- Hunting Lodges are now available with all policies, but only for Rhovanion (for balance purposes). For Easterling factions, they still require military or open policy.
- Warhorse Trainers affect fewer units, but unlock light horse archers in your homeland territory

Rhûn
Requirement for Thrall Stockade lowered to tier 3 market.
Now (again) loses access to Great Axes and Horse-archers of Khand if switching to the Shadow Cult, to prevent power creep and redundancies.
Shield of Eastland Darkhelms repainted to better match a high-tier, professional military unit.

Rohan
Now receives a passive bonus from the Trading Posts, Hunting Parties, and Military Garrison SB (if built by Beornings or Dorwinion).
Helmingas (non-AI version) are now available irrespective of policy.

Tharbad (uses RK SB tree)
Can now build Guild of Venturers, Guild of Weaponsmiths, King’s Court, Ranger Holds, Royal Mint, and Terracing.
Receives passive bonuses from Eorling Horse Traders.
Can now train Greenway Guards (new unit) from Ranger Holds.
SB bonuses adjusted in order to reflect identity as a mercantile and naval power:
- most SB are cheaper to maintain
- Guild of Venturers provides bigger trade bonus than for Adunabar/RK, but no recruitment
- Guild of Weaponsmiths upkeep reduced, but only grants +1 armour
- King’s Court is cheaper to maintain, but does not affect recruitment and its law bonus is smaller
- Royal Mint’s global income tax bonus is smaller than for Adunabar/RK

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Patch notes
Version 1.3

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Version 1.3

AI-led Factions now automatically destroy useless specialisation buildings from shared trees
For instance, Far Harad and Harondor share the Southron SB tree with Harad, but cannot convert to the Shadow Cult and thus have no use for the this Shadow Cult SB. This change should help the AI make better use of conquered cities.

Removed duplicate effects from SB
In the official version of FATW, minor factions receive passive benefits from conquered SB built by major factions of the same culture groups. Some of these bonuses are still in place, however in some cases, the “minor” factions can now build the exact same building, but from a different SB tree (e.g. Dorwinion can build Trading Posts just as Dale, but shares its SB tree with Rohan. In order to avoid stacking effects from two identical buildings, the passive bonuses have been removed in these cases, and the redundant building will be destroyed by the AI.

Minor adjustments to SB bonuses, including passive ones
This is an ongoing procedure to make the building effects introduced/changed in this submod more logical, balanced, and lore-accurate. The established SB bonuses from the main mod pertaining to major factions are not affected.

Fixed tier 1 recruitment for Khand in East Mordor regions
This was (probably) just an oversight issue in the main mod.

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Experimental changes (feedback would be appreciated):

Added Berserkers to North Rhûn’s unit roster
While the Chiefdom of North Rhûn is not lacking in decent infantry units within its core regions, its foreign recruitment options are quite weak in most places. Given the fact that this is a horde-capable faction, which can (and may have to) set up shop in an entirely different area of the map, its regional recruitment ought to be a bit better. To this end, Berserkers are now available to them from the Fighting Pits SB, currently in all regions (this may change upon revision). As with the Chiefdom of Rhûn, Berserkers require a t2 barracks and a “Fighting Pits” SB, and are restricted to provinces with a financial or open policy.

Added Vassal Macemen as a regional t4 unit in Mordor for the Reunited Kingdom
This is just a personal mod that I left in because I was too lazy to edit it out of the release version. The RK doesn’t really need this unit, I just think it looks nice and goes well with the Dúnedain roster. It also goes well with the theme of this faction having an AoR unit for many of its provinces and regions. I can of course remove it from the submod if it proves unpopular with players, or if turns out to be detrimental to campaign balance.

Added paved roads to Dorwinion’s tech tree
Dorwinion is a fairly advanced, infantry-focused faction with influences from Dale and Gondor. As such, it seems appropriate that they would get paved roads.

Added option for more factions to rebuild Ost-in-Edhil
The region of Eastern Hollin is located in a strategically important spot for some factions, and it contains a valuable trade resource. Waiting for the AI Elves to build it up can often be frustrating, and in fact may not occur unless you resort to cheats. Unlocking the rebuilding option for Dale, Dwarves, Reunited Kingdom, Rohan, and Tharbad aims at making the province more interesting. That said, it is still more difficult for those factions than for the Elves, because they lack the FM trait that triggers the population growth necessary to upgrade the settlement.


The following changes are not savegame compatible because they affect the map, and at least the first one requires the map.rwm file to be rebooted
If you prefer to install the mod without them and/or wish to continue saved campaign games, simply don't copy the "world" folder into your installation. If you want to install them, you may have to delete the file(s) called map.rwm in the "world" folder and its sub-folders.

1) Added paved roads as possible upgrades in some regions The following provinces are affected: Eastern Rhudaur (Lastbridge), Eastern Hollin (Ost-in-Edhil), Western Hollin (Swanfleet), Ethir Gwathló (Lond Daer), Central Rhovanion (Iath-in-Rhâw) and Umbar North (Habad). For some provinces, they correspond with historic trade routes, and some regions are surrounded by others that have them. Lond Daer and Habad, for example, are small provinces that can build massive ports, but somehow couldn’t build paved roads leading to them.

Version 1.4

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Adjusted more SB effects
Restricted passive bonuses received by Beornings, North Rhûn, Rhovanion, and Rohan.

Reworked Inquisitors’ Network for Harondor
For this faction, the building is now called “Judicial Network”. Its effects are similar to the one for Harad and Far Harad, however part of the (modest) law bonus is faction-wide rather than local.

Gondorian Weaponsmiths SB (Dorwinion, Rohan) is now also available in Annúminas
This should make your supply lines less awkward if you expand into Eriador.

Added t1 naval port to Harondor’s building roster
Harondor and Far Harad can now use naval ports
Added Corsair Dromund to Harondor and Far Harad’s ship roster (requires naval port and Corsair Stronghold)
In practice, these three adjustments shouldn't impact AI behaviour very much, because the only place AI FH and Harondor will be able to train dromunds is Umbar City itself, because unlike Harad, they still require both prerequisite buildings to construct this ship type (and the other Haradrian regions cannot build naval ports).
It does, however, make the campaign more interesting for the human player, because now you have to decide between three very good SB options in Umbar – the Merchant Guild massively boosts trade in this province, the Iron Foundry is an excellent and rare opportunity in combination with the t2 iron industry (one of only two places in Harad where you can get +2 armour), and the Corsair Fortress (which is also pre-built by Harad) now lets you recruit decent ships, and slightly boosts trade.
Also, these two factions could now theoretically train t2 ships in foreign regions with naval ports, such as Pelargir.


Not savegame compatible: Eliminated disaster event (flood) that causes permanently bugged movement in affected regions
This is technically a leftover RTW vanilla issue. Having a pretty disaster animation once in a while isn’t worth permanently losing 50% movement range in the affected province, especially if said province is the sea.

Version 1.5

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Beornings can now use the new SB to train Beorning Axemen and War-dogs in Fiefdom and Outland provinces
Three-tier factions like the Beornings often suffer from awkward regional rosters. This is an attempt at fixing the issue; it’s likely not final and will be tweaked in future releases (the AoR will probably be limited, etc.).

Dunland can now recruit Hillmen Slingers (new unit) from the Hillmen Forts SB
Slingers fit thematically with Dunland’s focus on livestock herding. They are slightly better than the Dunlending archers, but are much more restricted in terms of recruitment.
In future versions, a levy variant of the unit will probably be available to other factions as well.

Harondor can now train Lossarnach Axemen in Arnach and Blackroot Vale Bowmen in Mornan (same as the three Dúnedain factions)
This change was introduced to make expanding more interesting and also to introduce some variety into Harondor’s regional roster in Gondorian core regions.

Tharbad can now recruit Greenway Guards (new unit, name WiP; stealth archers) from Ranger Holds, and actively build Ranger Holds in Eriador (same AoR as RK)
This unit, being Tharbad’s second “special unit” in the region (together with Riders of Eriador), should make campaigning in Eriador more interesting.

Fixed some minor SB-related bugs/issues
For example, the experience bonuses from Rhovanion’s Warhorse Trainers should now be working properly.

Assassins are now only available in chief cities (tied to open policy)
This is an attempt at curbing assassin spam, which has been show to be frustrating and time-consuming to deal with in the base mod. The Brotherhood of Assassins SB is exempt from this – as a nice side-effect of this change, that SB is now slightly more useful than previously.

Changed unit skins for several existing units
Some modifications were made to units that had been lacking shield devices or were excessively monochrome before.

Outlook
This mod is made to be as compatible as possible with other people's submods that will hopefully see a release in the not so distant future, particularly those that aim to improve unit skins or add new units, insofar as that is possible.

Credits
Coding, scripting etc.: athanaric
3d graphics: chutlu_follower

Thanks go to the FATW team (especially Aradan, for helping out with advice at a crucial moment) and the fans on the discord channel, who contributed valuable feedback and inspiration. If I forgot anyone in particular, feel free to contact me.

A interesting, thanks for fleshing out the minor factions build rosters!

Thanks, glad you like it :thumbsup2

Now uploading version 1.3.

Great to see releases for this, athanaric!

Version 1.5 is approaching release, it's taken a little longer since it contains more ambitious changes, specifically input from other modders. If anyone is interested in participating, there are also some unit cards and building cards to be made (the ones mentioned in versions 1.0 to 1.4 plus a few new ones).

Version 1.5 is out and contains new units as well as a number of (subtle) reskins, particularly for Eriador regional units, but also for e.g. Rhovanion Nobles, who can now afford a shield pattern. Here's an example (retextured Eriador Spearmen in the foreground, Eriador riders on the right, and Greenway Guards in the middle).

Unit (re-)skins made by chutlu_follower.

Very nice stuff mate, keep up the good work :thumbsup2

Rhovanion specialized building description mentions Rhun (and possibly other Easterlings?), but the specialized building tree of other minor northmen mention Rhovanion. So in which group are they?

I also think it would be neat for Harondor to be able to go a bit more "Western" with their specialized buildings. I find them interesting because they are a Darkness faction that got the potential to go Ways of the West. That's kinda major.

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Originally Posted by CountMRVHS

Great to see releases for this, athanaric!

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Originally Posted by webba84

Very nice stuff mate, keep up the good work https://www.twcenter.net/forums/imag.../happy0144.gif

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Thanks guys (and everyone else that commented or downloaded), much appreciated :thumbsup2

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Originally Posted by RodriguesSting

Rhovanion specialized building description mentions Rhun (and possibly other Easterlings?), but the specialized building tree of other minor northmen mention Rhovanion. So in which group are they?

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They belong to the Northmen culture group, meaning you won't get cultural penalties if you take over buildings built by other Northmen factions. However they share the SB tree with the Easterlings, because I thought it would be more fitting than the other two (Dale's SB tree is really Dale-specific and most of the options don't work for other factions, thematically speaking). It't quite possible that not all descriptions have been sufficiently updated yet.
One little feature/exploit I've left in is that Rhovanion receives passive bonuses from many SBs built by other Northmen factions.

Quote:

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I also think it would be neat for Harondor to be able to go a bit more "Western" with their specialized buildings. I find them interesting because they are a Darkness faction that got the potential to go Ways of the West. That's kinda major.

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I agree, and I would've given them more WotW SB options (and considered having them share the RK SB tree instead of Harad's one), however on the whole, the Harad SB tree was more fitting than the RK one.
As with the Northmen example mentioned above, the core issue is that there are only eight possible upgrades to any separate tree in the RTW engine. In the base mod, only Harad uses all eight, while RK, Dale, and Rhûn use seven each, Adunabar and Dunland have six each, and Rohan, Elves, and Dwarves have four each. In this submod, the numbers and effects for Dale, RK, Elves, and Dwarves are unchanged, while Adunabar now has seven and the trees for Rohan/Beornings/Dorwinion and Rhûn/Khand/NR/Rhovanion are both maxed out at eight apiece.
As you can see, there is not a lot of wiggle room, especially if one tree has to acommodate several factions (and if I wanted to include a whole new SB line, I'd have to delete another building tree somewhere in the mod, because it's maxed out regarding the number of possible building tree slots). There are tricks that can be used to get a building display a different text depending on the faction that's built it, which I've utilized WRT the Judicial Network for Harondor, however that takes a bit of consideration since it would be odd for e.g. Cultic SBs to work for Harondor, just with a different description.
I am considering adjusting some effects and/or making a few changes, so feedback is always welcome. Currently working on version 1.6, and have already integrated a new unit and one or two fixes, so maybe there will be a new version soon-ish.

Your submod is very interesting, but I am slightly unconvinced about new units.

You see, with few exceptions (Slingers for North Rhun), all faction roster, even if small, are extremely functional. There's nearly zero unit redundancy, because almost all units have a clear use from start to end game. Your tier 1 recruits can make good meat walls because of the unit's overall defense (usually higher numbers than more elite units, so while each individual soldier is weaker, the entire unit on itself is sturdier), and you will still want them even on late game when you can crank out elites (to make most out of your manpower) simply because your best units may not be as good as line holders and terrain control. So I ask, carefully consider what rosters are, in fact, lacking a vital element, and the impact these added units may have.

Finally, I changed my unit size to Huge for this submod, including the huge unit size submod. I used to play on Large previously. The change was a bit jarring at first, and leaving battles on 4x speed tends to be a mistake (weak laptop), but I can deal with it now. I am just wondering if overcrowding numbers have been accordingly tweaked, just like population growth numbers.

Edit: The warhorse specialization is pretty major for Rhovanion. Getting better scouts (that will always be useful as cheap, but effective light cavalry) and, most importantly, Retainer Scouts, aka Rohirrim Horse Archers, in your core territories, is huge.

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Originally Posted by RodriguesSting

So I ask, carefully consider what rosters are, in fact, lacking a vital element, and the impact these added units may have.

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That's been my approach all along, and not just to rosters. We (I'm using the plural because the unit creation involves several people, whereas the original impetus and the scripting in general are my doing) haven't added units core to rosters (regular units that you get in your homelands without SB or other fancy additional buildings), and won't be, with perhaps one exception mentioned below.
What units we have added very deliberately improve regional (usually in Outland provinces) recruitment options where they were bad before - for example, Harondor which is supposed to be part Gondorian in its ethnicity and culture, could recruit three flavours of swordsmen in Gondor (four if you count mercenaries), but no archers or other long-range missiles (unless you count the ballistas at Minas Anor, thanks to the unique t3 academy).

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Finally, I changed my unit size to Huge for this submod, including the huge unit size submod. I used to play on Large previously. The change was a bit jarring at first, and leaving battles on 4x speed tends to be a mistake (weak laptop), but I can deal with it now. I am just wondering if overcrowding numbers have been accordingly tweaked, just like population growth numbers.

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I haven't touched those settings, you'd have to ask webba or Count about the Huge Unit Patch.

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Edit: The warhorse specialization is pretty major for Rhovanion. Getting better scouts (that will always be useful as cheap, but effective light cavalry) and, most importantly, Retainer Scouts, aka Rohirrim Horse Archers, in your core territories, is huge.

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Do you approve of the change? It's kind of an interim solution. We're pondering to eventually give Rhovanion its own missile cavalry unit.

Although Rhovanion at first glance might look like a cavalry faction (horse flag ffs), and cavalry is indeed their, by far, most effective arm, their cavalry is not actually capable of operating entirely alone. They need their infantry (namely, their archers, but some spearmen/axemen support helps) to work, not as an anvil, but as a center-pin or axis for their huge cavalry formation. Their horsemen, although more than capable of matching enemy cavalry, struggle a bit against anything above light infantry, and need overwhelming tactical numbers to be able to beat these without ludicrous losses (spearmen on shiltron, although will be beaten, will take quite a few with them though).

The addition of horse archers do make them a cavalry faction. They no longer need archers to soften up infantry or spread them out of formation to make easier targets for their cavalry, as horse-archers will do that, possibly better. That means, a 100% cavalry army is a possibility. Which can translate to a significant strategic advantage of movement.

Having to go to Rohan for that was a tough bargain, guaranteeing a war with the two most powerful factions in the game. Geting them locally is a great deal, even if out of a SB. Locally without an SB? That would change the faction.

Edit: Just noticed that Dorwinion apparently got access to the entire Rhovanion roster.

Any chance of showing the Elves a little love?

They should probably have a line of buildings representing their exceeding skill as craftsmen (nearly equal to the skill of the Dwarves). Probably restricted to their non-Mannish settlements, but maybe a lesser variant for Mannish ones too, representing teaching the Elvellyn some of their craft secrets.

For thematic reasons, such a building should probably be VERY slow to build (12+ turns). And for balance reasons, only provide a minor tax or trade income boost.

But it would help deal with the whole Elves being excessively poor thing.

Also, is there a way to, potentially, give the Elves the ability to build Paved roads in Ost-in-Edhil (and there only) to represent the partial restoration of the great paved road (in-game, likely was Highway quality when originally built) that once ran between Ost-in-Edhil and Khazad-Dum (Moria)? In-lore the road is still there at the end of the Third Age, although heavily overgrown and damaged through centuries of neglect...

I've always found the Elves' inability to build Paved Roads a little jarring, but understandable given that the remaining Elves in the Fourth Age are mostly Wood Elves, not the High Elves who dwelt around Ost-in-Edhil. However, I would presume any Elven leader with the foresight to restore Ost-in-Edhil would also have the will to properly restore the old paved roads there to working condition...

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Originally Posted by athanaric

One little feature/exploit I've left in is that Rhovanion receives passive bonuses from many SBs built by other Northmen factions.

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I don't see how this is an exploit at all.

Adopting useful infrastructure and traditions from conquered peoples has always been an important aspect of human history.

That is why it fit thematically in Rome to have the ability to benefit from captured Greek theater buildings (Odeon/Lyceum/Theater) as the Romans, for instance- and why it was actually generally a net positive to let a region be captured and governed by several different cultural groups, each bringing their own ideas, before capturing a region yourself (cities in Asia Minor could easily end up home to both an Odeon or two and Execution Squares/Caravan Posts if you let the Macedonians and Parthians squabble over it for a while as the Brutii, for instance).

Similarly, I hope you haven't made the AI automatically destroy "useless" buildings that don't get in the way of anything, with the change that made them destroy useless SB's since Version 1.3 of your submod. Many such buildings actually DO provide benefits beyond those you can see in the description, such as increased chances of rolling beneficial ancillaries or of developing positive traits...

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Originally Posted by James_Northstar

Any chance of showing the Elves a little love?

They should probably have a line of buildings representing their exceeding skill as craftsmen (nearly equal to the skill of the Dwarves). Probably restricted to their non-Mannish settlements, but maybe a lesser variant for Mannish ones too, representing teaching the Elvellyn some of their craft secrets.

For thematic reasons, such a building should probably be VERY slow to build (12+ turns). And for balance reasons, only provide a minor tax or trade income boost.

But it would help deal with the whole Elves being excessively poor thing.

Also, is there a way to, potentially, give the Elves the ability to build Paved roads in Ost-in-Edhil (and there only) to represent the partial restoration of the great paved road (in-game, likely was Highway quality when originally built) that once ran between Ost-in-Edhil and Khazad-Dum (Moria)? In-lore the road is still there at the end of the Third Age, although heavily overgrown and damaged through centuries of neglect...

I've always found the Elves' inability to build Paved Roads a little jarring, but understandable given that the remaining Elves in the Fourth Age are mostly Wood Elves, not the High Elves who dwelt around Ost-in-Edhil. However, I would presume any Elven leader with the foresight to restore Ost-in-Edhil would also have the will to properly restore the old paved roads there to working condition...

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Interesting points; if I find the time to release version 1.6 at some point (not before September, as far as I can see), I'll take these into consideration.

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Originally Posted by James_Northstar

I don't see how this is an exploit at all.

Adopting useful infrastructure and traditions from conquered peoples has always been an important aspect of human history.

That is why it fit thematically in Rome to have the ability to benefit from captured Greek theater buildings (Odeon/Lyceum/Theater) as the Romans, for instance- and why it was actually generally a net positive to let a region be captured and governed by several different cultural groups, each bringing their own ideas, before capturing a region yourself (cities in Asia Minor could easily end up home to both an Odeon or two and Execution Squares/Caravan Posts if you let the Macedonians and Parthians squabble over it for a while as the Brutii, for instance).

Similarly, I hope you haven't made the AI automatically destroy "useless" buildings that don't get in the way of anything, with the change that made them destroy useless SB's since Version 1.3 of your submod. Many such buildings actually DO provide benefits beyond those you can see in the description, such as increased chances of rolling beneficial ancillaries or of developing positive traits...

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Yes, that's aligns pretty well with my own line of reasoning. I've been quite conservative with what AI factions destroy and what they don't; it's been a while since I played the game so I can't exactly tell you which buildings right now, but IIRC it's only government buildings (which is a must if the game is to function properly), incompatible alignment buildings (e.g. Shadow Cult for factions that can't convert to the cult), incompatible SBs (that don't provide any bonuses and/or get in the way of more useful SBs for the faction), and the Despotic Law line for some of the WotW factions. I'm not sure if I made libraries exempt from auto-desctruction. Otherwise, mirth buildings, as per "Vanilla" FATW, should always remain.

One thing I/we haven't touched is traits and ancillaries. I know those have been tweaked by at least one other submod. Maybe we'll cooperate in that regard in the future, but for now, it's not a part of 1.6.

This one's a bit of a doozy- but totally worth it...

Have you ever thought of copying the feature from Medieval II: Kingdoms (specifically the Crusades Campaign) that lets you build permanent stone forts? (they are upgraded from wood forts built like in Rome Total War)

Various mods and attempts to extend the feature within Medieval 2 more broadly existed, such as this one (below), and it should definitely be possible to do something similar in Rome and its mods, as it's basically the same engine as Medieval 2:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Forts-for-M2TW

Something like this would really extend the dynamism of the FATW campaigns. Right now, wood forts are pretty weak, and the only true "forts" are preplaced on the map, and act as small settlements (with population and border control).

It doesn't make much sense that as borders, relative threat vectors, and power dynamics shift, smaller new forts wouldn't spring up. Especially with the large power shifts occurring in the Fourth Age (certain regions have much faster-growing populations and economies than others: the Beorning lands rapidly become an increasing threat to their neighbors if left unchecked, for instance... And if Dorwinion expands in almost any direction, they really need new fortifications to protect their borders)

Right now I rely on the wooden "camps" (renamed vanilla forts) for protecting chokepoints without forts and increasing defense density (for instance I have a wooden fort placed southeast of Amon Sul in my current campaign to force Adunabar armies coming from Western Rhudaur to engage either it or Amon Sul, and decrease the odds of armies from Lastbridge bypassing the fort altogether). But it would be very nice in this, and in other situations where no forts exist (like defending the northern river crossing into the Lhun Valley) to actually be able to build stone forts of my own...

Anyways, maybe a subject for another submod- but something that would fit well with being used alongside this submod- and that you would be a good author for, potentially...

Not in the foreseeable future, since there's way too much IRL business for me right now to get into modding beyond ironing out the kinks of the base mods or fixing bugs with the submod. I'm not so sure it's even possible.
But you could always try to ask "Majestic Steerve" (I don't know if he's on this forum, but his mod is on the discord server) if he's already implemented the idea or would be interested in doing so.