I'm starting this thread to compare units' visual appearance with their stats... could be just for fun, but it could be useful.
Ligurian swordsmen vs Celtic light swordsmen (garkokladioi or something)
Ligurians have an attack rating of 9, Celts have a 10. I don't know why that is, but nvm it now, as this thread is about visual depictions of equipment.
Ligurians have an armor rating of 3, Celts have a 2. This is what I perceive as wrong.
Ligurians - all models have helmets.
Celts - half (or less) have helmets.
Ligurians - half (or less) have body armor.
Celts - none have body armor.
All other stats seem to be equal.
In my opinion, the 1 difference in armor rating in favor of Ligurians is too little. The difference in the number of helmets alone would amount for that, at least. If you add body armor into the equation, it should be 2.
So, in the next patch, Ligurians armor rating as 4 , Celts as 2?
If you want to compare units, feel free to do it here.
June 06, 2016, 10:13 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Next one - Hoplitai Haploi vs Carthaginian Citizen Phalanx
Attack, defense skill and shield are the same.
HH - armor rating 3
CCP - armor rating 4
HH - 3/5 have helmets, no body armor
CCP - all have helmets, 2/5 have linothorax body armor
Again, the difference in armor rating could be a bit bigger in favor of CCP. So, CCP 5, HH 3?
If I get the time, I'll work out a formula for armor rating and suggest it. Comparing similar units to each other won't work in the long run.
June 06, 2016, 11:18 PM
Roma_Victrix
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
This thread is radical. :D
"Celts - none have body armor."
Wait, what? :hmm: Cool idea for a thread (I've always pondered about this), but this here is an absolute statement that's inherently untrue. You've seen the donno eporedoi and argoi and units like that, right? Those guys are heavy duty. When you max them out with armor upgrades they are the heaviest looking troops in the game aside from Hellenistic and Eastern cataphracts.
June 07, 2016, 12:16 AM
alex33
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I think shields are also important for armour. Thureos shields are quite big so they'll protect much of your body
June 07, 2016, 12:49 AM
Roma_Victrix
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex33
I think shields are also important for armour. Thureos shields are quite big so they'll protect much of your body
That's a different value, though, as far as the EDU file is concerned.
June 07, 2016, 12:57 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
This thread is radical. :D
"Celts - none have body armor."
Wait, what? :hmm: Cool idea for a thread (I've always pondered about this), but this here is an absolute statement that's inherently untrue. You've seen the donno eporedoi and argoi and units like that, right? Those guys are heavy duty. When you max them out with armor upgrades they are the heaviest looking troops in the game aside from Hellenistic and Eastern cataphracts.
The very specific Celts I was referring to don't have body armor. I hate you for making me state that :D
June 07, 2016, 01:01 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex33
I think shields are also important for armour. Thureos shields are quite big so they'll protect much of your body
Shields have a separate defense rating from armor. So does defense skill.
This thread is about visual appearance and armor. If unit A has armor X, it should have armor rating X as a result. That sort of thing.
June 07, 2016, 02:13 AM
Roma_Victrix
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
The very specific Celts I was referring to don't have body armor. I hate you for making me state that :D
I didn't realize you were talking about the variation of soldiers within a single unit. Makes sense now.
June 07, 2016, 03:17 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I thought you did it on purpose just to make me type a reply xD
June 07, 2016, 03:44 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
If I get the time, I'll work out a formula for armor rating and suggest it. Comparing similar units to each other won't work in the long run.
We already have a formula to calculate armour values; sometimes it rounds up or down.
In any case, I've adjusted those two you observed in the patch.
June 07, 2016, 05:23 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Now I feel like I tricked you into it, even though the difference is really there and completely justified lol :P
On one hand, I want to help out. On the other, I hate seeing my direct influence.
I'll work out mine and post it for review. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt.
June 07, 2016, 06:00 AM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Man is not bad. If you have a valid point its good to see it actually taking place and effect ;)
Keep it up!
June 07, 2016, 06:34 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
We do listen! The Carthaginian Citizen Militia is best thought of as similarly skilled to the Haploi (men who don't train often - thus the spear attack and defensive skill), but much, much richer. Which is why they have better equipment (and this higher armour value).
June 07, 2016, 08:09 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
We do listen! The Carthaginian Citizen Militia is best thought of as similarly skilled to the Haploi (men who don't train often - thus the spear attack and defensive skill), but much, much richer. Which is why they have better equipment (and this higher armour value).
Btw, will they still be recruitable with the last Poeni reform?
June 07, 2016, 08:46 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
Btw, will they still be recruitable with the last Poeni reform?
Yes, they are not reform-adjusted. However, they always remain in very small numbers, and only in Africa.
June 08, 2016, 12:31 PM
Gunydii
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Apologies if this isnt quite the right place for this, but theres a couple of unit questions id been wondering about.
First, for Epeiros their guard cav costs more than then the thessalians, but they seem to have identical stats.
Second (this is basically just curiosity), it looks like the spartan units are slightly worse than their generic counterparts - this just strikes me as a bit odd, i would have presumed it would be the other way around.
Third i presume the elite thorakitai reflect historical usage? for instance makedonia, look like they lose their hypaspistai but unlike the other factions dont get the elite thorakitai to replace them. similarly pontos loses the hyperaspistai and doesnt get the elite thorakitai either. Did a point in history come where both factions just stopped feeling the need to fill that niche?
Many thanks
June 08, 2016, 01:20 PM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Spartans are actually quite better than generic hoplite. Just slightly worse than elite hoplites (and cheaper too). I think that may be intended as Sparta can also produce itself the elite hoplites. The refresh times are the same though...guess to represent their scarcity. But a spartan army repalcing standard hoplites with spartan ones really is gonna be a hell lot stronger.
June 08, 2016, 01:38 PM
Raiuga
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Maybe it's intentional and part of the formula, the Late Libyan Infantry and the Blastophoenicians have the same armor rating, with the first having linothorax all around and the second only partially. Is it because of the leg guards?
Also, do they appear at the same time?
June 08, 2016, 02:28 PM
Gunydii
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jervaj
Spartans are actually quite better than generic hoplite. Just slightly worse than elite hoplites (and cheaper too). I think that may be intended as Sparta can also produce itself the elite hoplites. The refresh times are the same though...guess to represent their scarcity. But a spartan army repalcing standard hoplites with spartan ones really is gonna be a hell lot stronger.
Well i was comparing the 120 vs the 120 units. so the elites > spartans > lakedaimonians. it makes some sense, I just would have presumed the aristocratic spatans would have been an elite unit in themselves rather than equivalent to generic hoplites.
June 08, 2016, 02:31 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
They're much better than generic hoplites. They are slightly worse than generic elite hoplites, and I am fine with that.
June 08, 2016, 03:26 PM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunydii
Well i was comparing the 120 vs the 120 units. so the elites > spartans > lakedaimonians. it makes some sense, I just would have presumed the aristocratic spatans would have been an elite unit in themselves rather than equivalent to generic hoplites.
Well they are almost elite like. They have the same attack, defence skill and charge value than the elites been also disciplined and hardy. So basically thats elite training. They have quite better armor than standard hoplites 9 compared to 6, but behind the elite 12. That show they are rich but behind the elite units whose equipment might have been directly provided instead of bought by themselves and get the best of the best (dont know this is just a guess). Shield is the same for everybody because is basically the same. Then they have 1 point less of morale than the elites and 1 more than the standard hoplites. Together with discplined that makes them a lot more unlikelly to flee that standard but a bit more than the elites. This isnt the clasical Sparta anyway. If you read their description I think their actual stats make quite sense.
I didnt expected them to be better than anything. That would have only made sense one or two centuries ago.
I dont understand the 120 unit part, they are also a 120 unit (in large)
The equivalence its because that supposed to be the standard Spartan citizien hoplite thats better than the standard citizien of other poleis. But I thin kis pretty good. Its a hoplite with lots of steroids
June 08, 2016, 07:08 PM
Gunydii
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Well im fine with it really, as i said just curious. re 120 vs 120 I meant that i was comparing the spartans to the elites rather than comparing them to the standard hoplites. It had occurred to me the spartans where 'hoplites +' and that their 'real' elite was represented by generic elite hoplites, but then i got confused that the spartan FMs are accompanied by spartans not generic elites. I could have asked the question that way round, but i thought it would be a bit convoluted
June 09, 2016, 02:05 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I guess that the Spartan FM bodyguards are there to make them more Spartan like? :)
June 09, 2016, 02:27 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
I guess that the Spartan FM bodyguards are there to make them more Spartan like? :)
They were, but they won't be any longer. There are issues with not using a proper bodyguard unit for FMs.
June 09, 2016, 02:45 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Yh, namely the huge freakin upkeep :D
June 09, 2016, 05:57 AM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
Yh, namely the huge freakin upkeep :D
No, a lot worse. Non refreshing numbers. After a pair of battles your FM is quite unprotected xD
June 09, 2016, 07:41 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Aww yeah, forgot about that one.
June 09, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Yep, specially as retraining the msot scarce unit for you is harsh xD
June 10, 2016, 01:53 PM
Hellenikon
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I don´t understand how units are assigned AP weapons, and i think this is a big deal because of how powerful that stat is.
I understand some units who carry axes or maces get AP weapons, also thracians with romphaia. However why Hyperaspistai gets AP weapons and not Peltastai Makedones? Why Hipppakontistai gets ap weapon (and 7 attack)? Why Baktrian somatophylakes get ap secondary but not baktrioi hippeis? Why some elite cavalry like hetairoi, lydians, thesalians etc. gets ap secondary but others like median cavalry do not?
Units with ap weapon outperform regular ones by a lot, so i think that stat should only be given with good justification - i like axe units having that for example, it balances their low attack.
June 10, 2016, 04:21 PM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
In virtually every single instance you've highlighted there, they have a kopis, not a straight sword. Or their mixture of weapons includes more kopides than straight ones.
June 11, 2016, 05:29 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Just noticed that the Armenian and Hellenistic cataphracts have a defense skill of 6, while the Parthian catas have a defense skill of 9. Intended?
June 11, 2016, 08:35 PM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Not sure but I think it was to represent their higher skill and horsemanship tradition. There was a discussion about Cataphract compariton and I actually think some changes ensued. Parthian stays the stronger one though, as it should
June 12, 2016, 04:02 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I agree that Parthians should be better cataphracts, especially compared to Hellenistic ones, but I am not sure if defense skill is the way to go. Currently, there are four levels of defense skill 3-6-9-12. I don't think the difference was that drastic. Slightly manipulating attack values of those 3 units would do a better job representing differences in quality. Or on a strategic level, availability - bigger unit pools and replenisment rates.
June 12, 2016, 11:22 AM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Theres such a big difference? Didnt knew that. Yeah I dont think he differences should be that big specially when other factions already pay with the fairly reduced availabilty
June 12, 2016, 12:23 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Putting them in different (currently existing) defense skill lvls is too drastic in my opinion.
June 13, 2016, 03:43 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
New comparison
Jewish spearmen vs Hemithorakitai
Jewish spearmen have an armor rating of 3, while Hemithorakitai have an armor rating of 4.
It's odd since both units are armored the same. Fully helmeted, and 1 in 4 has linothorax.
June 16, 2016, 12:18 PM
achilles-91
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Hi Rad. Do you think that phalanxes generaly are bit underpowered? I am aware of hammer and anvil tactics, and other supporting things. But i think they are bit too much underpowered. I did a lot of testing, im not saying this just like that. Still, i would like to hear your opinion. Others are also welcome to comment it.
June 16, 2016, 12:24 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I think I read somewhere that they will be changed somewhat in 2.2b. Waiting for it, then I'll test it again and let you know.
Honestly, you can do well with the Deuteroi, Illyrian or any other levy pikemen. They just need to hold the door, err, I mean line, for long enough for your flanking units to do their magic.
June 16, 2016, 12:28 PM
achilles-91
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Didnt knew that they will be changed for 2.2b . Thanks for info. Hodor :)
June 16, 2016, 01:12 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Now that you've mentioned it, I gotta say that one of my personal favorites is to set loose pikemen on light troops in a city square. They have nowhere to run muahahahahahaha! :D
June 16, 2016, 04:58 PM
Roma_Victrix
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jervaj
No, a lot worse. Non refreshing numbers. After a pair of battles your FM is quite unprotected xD
Thank you for pointing this out! I was going to mention it in the "fan suggestions" thread but forgot to or never got around to it (I've been busy tackling the Aegean and the freaking eastern Mediterranean and Sicily for that matter with my preferred faction, the Koinon Hellenon).
This thread is really bearing fruit. Thanks for creating it, Rad! IT'S SO GODDAMN RADICAL! IT'S SO RADICAL THAT IT HAS CONVERTED TO RADICAL ISLAM.
Tubular, cool, bodacious, gnarly, out-of-sight Islam that is.
I was going to say something about not linking this thread to Radical Islam until I saw the picture hahahahaha xD
June 17, 2016, 04:32 AM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I think this is the correct place for this:
Komatai are trained vvhen I check it from the recruitment vievver, Komatai Epilektoi are untrained. Is this done on purpose to overcome some game mechanism? Does the training level affect the morale?
June 17, 2016, 05:39 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
I think this is the correct place for this:
Komatai are trained vvhen I check it from the recruitment vievver, Komatai Epilektoi are untrained. Is this done on purpose to overcome some game mechanism? Does the training level affect the morale?
Even though it's listed under stat_mental, it's nothing to do with morale. It's about how "neat" their formation is. Untrained units are looser and more ragged in how they're distributed, trained and highly_trained are more orderly.
June 17, 2016, 06:12 AM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by achilles-91
Hi Rad. Do you think that phalanxes generaly are bit underpowered? I am aware of hammer and anvil tactics, and other supporting things. But i think they are bit too much underpowered. I did a lot of testing, im not saying this just like that. Still, i would like to hear your opinion. Others are also welcome to comment it.
Its actually some kind of "Bug" you could say. They arent working properlly as they were before. We hope it will be fixed for 2.2b and they will recover their frontal power
June 17, 2016, 06:17 AM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Then why are the Elite Dacian Skirmishers less orderly than Dacian Skirmishers? They have better armour and morale so shouldn't they fight more orderly so that they can fight melee longer?
June 17, 2016, 06:27 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Then why are the Elite Dacian Skirmishers less orderly than Dacian Skirmishers? They have better armour and morale so shouldn't they fight more orderly so that they can fight melee longer?
Looks like their stats are the wrong way around, reading their respective descriptions.
June 25, 2016, 06:53 AM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Just noticed Seguorina has a defense skill of 3, can it be marked for change in the upcoming release if this isn't intended Quintus?
June 25, 2016, 07:21 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Just noticed Seguorina has a defense skill of 3, can it be marked for change in the upcoming release if this isn't intended Quintus?
Ooops, that should be 6. They've got the same defensive stats as Komnetsamoi, which isn't right.
June 25, 2016, 09:07 AM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
While we are on stats, I have a lot of time these days, would gladly do the boring check stat work faction by faction if it can be of help.. You just need to explain me how the stats work. I guess I can't check the equipment based stats but can do the rest if they can be checked from the recruitment viewer..
June 25, 2016, 10:13 AM
Dooz
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
Ooops, that should be 6. They've got the same defensive stats as Komnetsamoi, which isn't right.
If I were to want to correct that before starting a campaign, where would I find the files and what would I need to do? (currently looking through recruitment viewer to find a unit with the name, not familiar off the top of my head [edit: ah, google points to eb wiki points to pritanoi])
June 25, 2016, 10:32 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
While we are on stats, I have a lot of time these days, would gladly do the boring check stat work faction by faction if it can be of help.. You just need to explain me how the stats work. I guess I can't check the equipment based stats but can do the rest if they can be checked from the recruitment viewer..
Consistency is one of the primary aims of statting, it's essentially what I've been doing on them with Ibrahim since 2.01. The general rule is that stats should be roughly equivalent with other units of a similar role and status. So if they're using the same weapon, their attack should be the same as another unit of similar role/status using the same. Often it's better to find a comparable unit in another faction's roster - the aim is that equivalent units should be mostly similar, though mental stats are culture-based.
Defensive skill for non-aspis-wielding infantry is 3 for levies/untrained, 6 for militia/semi-professional, 9 for professionals/veterans and 12 for elites. An exception is for swordsmen, who are assumed to need a more active style than spearmen, so they're usually a 9, unless they have a really big shield. For aspis-wielding infantry it's 3 for levies, 4-5 for militia/semi-professionals and 6 for professionals, with 12 for elites.
For cavalry it's 3 for militia, 6 for horse-people/professionals and 9 for bodyguards/elites.
Shields have changed for infantry recently, though it ranges from 1-4 for cavalry, and 2-9 for infantry, mostly due to size, with infantry getting doubled/more varied value compared to cavalry. This is because cavalry shields don't protect the horse, so there's always a vulnerable element compared to infantry. The recent changes is that that a full-sized aspis is now a 7 and the thureos is a 6 - they were the other way around. Reason for the change is that while the coverage of the latter is slightly more efficient (usually 1m high and 0.5m wide - covering a big chunk of the body) they're usually quite light and thin compared to the aspis (which is usually 0.7m to 0.85m in diameter).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooz
If I were to want to correct that before starting a campaign, where would I find the files and what would I need to do? (currently looking through recruitment viewer to find a unit with the name, not familiar off the top of my head)
Download Notepad++ (do not edit the files with Windows Notepad).
Search the export_descr_units.txt for Seguorina. Find the stat_pri_armour line. Change 1, 3, 4 to 1, 6, 4.
Delete your map.rwm and start a new campaign for it to take effect.
June 25, 2016, 11:11 AM
Dooz
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Thank you, sir!
June 25, 2016, 01:43 PM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Is there any formula for charge bonus check/comparison?
June 25, 2016, 02:21 PM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Is there any formula for charge bonus check/comparison?
It varies quite a bit; there are more exceptions here. For cavalry lances it's either 10/21 or 10/28 for two-handed ones, depending on length. One-handed lances are usually 4/17 or 6/15 depending on how handy they are up close. Overhand spears are 8/11, underhand vary a bit depending on the unit. Swords are 10/5 for longswords and 9/5 for others, 7/4 (and ap) for choppers - though elites have higher numbers due to skill.
For infantry generally charge value is half the attack value - though Celt semi-professionals and up (not Pritanoi) have doubled charge values.
Again, check equivalent units in other rosters.
June 27, 2016, 06:18 AM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Here is the first roster (Pritanoi) I finished checking/comparing. Tried to explain the changes I see fit the best I can..
Didn't touch the morale though, I'm not sure if I can reason that out other than comparing but that'd be fishy I think..
***Pritanoi Roster Offers
Seguorina
offer: defense skill from 3 to 6 (as already been discussed)
Komnetsamoi
offer: charge bonus from 17 to 5
shield armor from 4 to 3
melee attack from 2 to 3
Komnetsamoi should have the same charge value as Londo Epatoi. Their second weapon looks the very same as londo epatoi too , should have the same attack damage which is 3.
The biggest shield armor for cavalry is 4 like in theuros shield cavalry (Kurepos,Donno Eporedo etc) which is equal in stat to the big Pritanoi shield cavalry (Seguorina, Markakoi). Komnetsamoi clearly have a smaller version of Pritanoi big shield. Making this change will put their shield stat similar to Mezenai, Ridanz who have more or less similar shield.
Magones
offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
shield armor from 4 to 2
They are good warriors, they are probably more skilled than Mezenai, Kantabrae Ekuoreda, Ridanz but then they also have a smaller shield so giving them a defense skill of 6 considering their higher skill (9 level) worse shield seems appropriate.
4 is the cavalry shield armor for the biggest, best shields like the shield of Seguorina or the theuros shield of Donno Eporedoi, 3 is for the shields of Mezenai, Aswiniai, Prasadhara Asvanika, Magones should be one less on par with Sakaya Ashwabara, Parasim Garamantim shield armor values.
Markakoi
offer: defense skill from 6 to 9
elite cavalry, should have elite heavy cavalry defense skill same as Donno Eporedoi
Gaisokrotiatoi
offer: shield armor from 3 to 4
they should have same value as similar shield units like Slaganz, Perkwunas
Eqoreda
offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
these are named nobles but then their training level and probably also the battle experience should not be on par with real elite cavalry like Donno or Markakoi so they should have a defense skill of 6 rather than 9. not 2 though..
Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi
offer: training level from untrained to highly_trained or trained
I don't know what training level exactly represents but these are the chosen folk, foot versions of seguorina but then maybe they are trained less because of class issues so they can be trained rather than highly trained
***Some independent offers I wanted in before I come to their spesific rosters:
Gargokladioi
offer: Gargokladioi charge bonus from 5 to 10
Gargokladioi defense skill from 6 to 9
idea: batoroi vs gargokladioi
these are east celtic swordsman and west celtic swordsman right? western one being a bit better equipped. other the armor difference their stats should be the same no?
Basternai Draugai
offer: shield armor from 0 to 5 or 6
0 is obviously a mistake but i'm not sure if their shields are as good as theuros shields hence 5 or 6
Basternai Markaridai
offer: shield armor from 3 to 4
their shield seems big and enforced enough but I if it's of less quality then theuros I guess it should stay 3
If these changes are in overall sound, will move to another roster to continue
June 27, 2016, 09:02 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Here is the first roster (Pritanoi) I finished checking/comparing. Tried to explain the changes I see fit the best I can..
Didn't touch the morale though, I'm not sure if I can reason that out other than comparing but that'd be fishy I think..
Really appreciate you doing this, it's always good to have another set of eyes on the units, especially if Ibrahim and I have missed something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
***Pritanoi Roster Offers
Seguorina
offer: defense skill from 3 to 6 (as already been discussed)
Komnetsamoi
offer: charge bonus from 17 to 5
shield armor from 4 to 3
melee attack from 2 to 3
Komnetsamoi should have the same charge value as Londo Epatoi. Their second weapon looks the very same as londo epatoi too , should have the same attack damage which is 3.
The biggest shield armor for cavalry is 4 like in theuros shield cavalry (Kurepos,Donno Eporedo etc) which is equal in stat to the big Pritanoi shield cavalry (Seguorina, Markakoi). Komnetsamoi clearly have a smaller version of Pritanoi big shield. Making this change will put their shield stat similar to Mezenai, Ridanz who have more or less similar shield.
I've just had a look at these two in-game (there weren't any post-completion screenshots in the concepting forum), and as far as I can see, both use the same overhand spears as secondary weapons as Celtic cavalry. I've queried that with Ibrahim, because I can't see why their secondary weapon is statted as a (short) lance.
Agree on the shields for the tribesmen, smaller than the other unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Magones
offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
shield armor from 4 to 2
They are good warriors, they are probably more skilled than Mezenai, Kantabrae Ekuoreda, Ridanz but then they also have a smaller shield so giving them a defense skill of 6 considering their higher skill (9 level) worse shield seems appropriate.
4 is the cavalry shield armor for the biggest, best shields like the shield of Seguorina or the theuros shield of Donno Eporedoi, 3 is for the shields of Mezenai, Aswiniai, Prasadhara Asvanika, Magones should be one less on par with Sakaya Ashwabara, Parasim Garamantim shield armor values.
That defensive skill of 2 is wrong, we don't even use that for cavalry, it's 3 or 6 for the most part.
Agree on the shield size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Markakoi
offer: defense skill from 6 to 9
elite cavalry, should have elite heavy cavalry defense skill same as Donno Eporedoi
Donno Eporedoi have a 6 - only FM bodyguard cavalry, and a handful of elite exceptions have 9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Gaisokrotiatoi
offer: shield armor from 3 to 4
they should have same value as similar shield units like Slaganz, Perkwunas
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Eqoreda
offer: defense skill from 2 to 6
these are named nobles but then their training level and probably also the battle experience should not be on par with real elite cavalry like Donno or Markakoi so they should have a defense skill of 6 rather than 9. not 2 though..
Another mistake, they should have a defensive skill of 6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi
offer: training level from untrained to highly_trained or trained
I don't know what training level exactly represents but these are the chosen folk, foot versions of seguorina but then maybe they are trained less because of class issues so they can be trained rather than highly trained
It represents "neatness" of their formations. The Pritanoi are more individualistic even than the Celts, so it makes sense for them not to have neatly serried ranks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
***Some independent offers I wanted in before I come to their spesific rosters:
Gargokladioi
offer: Gargokladioi charge bonus from 5 to 10
Gargokladioi defense skill from 6 to 9
idea: batoroi vs gargokladioi
these are east celtic swordsman and west celtic swordsman right? western one being a bit better equipped. other the armor difference their stats should be the same no?
They're not equivalent to Batoroi - that's why they're so much cheaper. The eastern equivalent to Batoroi are the Uextias. Talking of whom, they're costed wrong, they're higher status/training than Gargokladoi, even if they have no equipment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Basternai Draugai
offer: shield armor from 0 to 5 or 6
0 is obviously a mistake but i'm not sure if their shields are as good as theuros shields hence 5 or 6
They don't have shields, I just checked them. Javelins and a two-handed weapon. Are you sure we're talking about the same unit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Basternai Markaridai
offer: shield armor from 3 to 4
their shield seems big and enforced enough but I if it's of less quality then theuros I guess it should stay 3
If these changes are in overall sound, will move to another roster to continue
Agreed, those are big.
June 27, 2016, 10:07 AM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Haha glad to be of help.. I will post when I finish my next roster check.
I've used extensively the recruitment viewer doing this check assuming it displayed correct other than checking the second weapons of two aforementioned celtic cavalry. However, Basternai Draugai are depicted with a big theuros like shield.. I got surprised when you said they don't have shield.. Maybe the pic is something like a placeholder for the same unit leftover from a previous version?
Something is bothering me about Pritanoi. Do they experience the riders reform along the same dates as their cousin factions? If that's the case, I assume to make them exempt from because they don't get to recruit their heavy cavalry and chariots until their kingdom which for a standart non-blitzing play should be experienced so much later then the riders reform..
June 27, 2016, 10:15 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Haha glad to be of help.. I will post when I finish my next roster check.
I've used extensively the recruitment viewer doing this check assuming it displayed correct other than checking the second weapons of two aforementioned celtic cavalry. However, Basternai Draugai are depicted with a big theuros like shield.. I got surprised when you said they don't have shield.. Maybe the pic is something like a placeholder for the same unit leftover from a previous version?.
Don't assume the info card (which is what the RV reads) is correct. I checked those units in-game to verify their equipment, the Basternai infantry are shieldless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas
Something is bothering me about Pritanoi. Do they experience the riders reform along the same dates as their cousin factions? If that's the case, I assume to make them exempt from because they don't get to recruit their heavy cavalry and chariots until their kingdom which for a standart non-blitzing play should be experienced so much later then the riders reform..
They're not Celts, they don't get the Celtic reforms. So they'll retain chariots for the remainder of the game.
June 27, 2016, 11:16 AM
Saithem
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
For aspis-wielding infantry it's 3 for levies, 4-5 for militia/semi-professionals and 6 for professionals, with 12 for elites.
Are you sure it's not 9 for the aspis-wielding elites. At least that's the defensive skill of the Spartiatai Hoplitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai or Hypaspistai for example.
June 27, 2016, 11:53 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saithem
Are you sure it's not 9 for the aspis-wielding elites. At least that's the defensive skill of the Spartiatai Hoplitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai or Hypaspistai for example.
So it is, you're right, I was misremembering.
June 27, 2016, 09:41 PM
Tanavar
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
why the hellcats and the hetairoi got the same charge value ? 21
the hellcats are much more heavily armored and got a longer lance so it doesnt makes sense to me.
meanwhile the parthians and the armenians got a charge value of 30
even the Persian heavy cavalry and the Baktrian Medium Cavalry got a charge value of 28 even being less heavily armored than the Hellenic Cataphracts.
The hellenic cataphracts got also a worse moral than the hetairoi and less stamina , they have little more defence and little more attack but that's about it , also their secondary weapon attack value is worse , i think their charge value should be buffed a little , to 28 for exemple if you want them worse than their armenians and parthians counterparts.
i tested their charge on a unit of Pandotapoi and here the results (frontal charge):
Hellenic Cataphracts : Charge , kills some 20 pandotapoi , fights a little , 4 hellenic cataphracts dies and the pandotapoi routs.
Armenian and Parthians : Charge , Pandotapoi instantly rout , no casulaties for the cataphracts
Baktrian / Persian heavy cavalry : loses 2 men then the pandotapoi routs
the Hetairoi doctrine isint meant for frontal charges but i tried anyways : they lose like 8 men and the pandotapoi routs.
any feedback on this ?
June 28, 2016, 03:49 AM
Jervaj
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Its normal that Heitaroi have the best stamina of all those. As they arent carring such a full cover armor and barding. They should be better for more mobility and repeated charges.
Cataphracts are about armor and one big charge really. I dont know why hellenic ones dont have notably higher charge values either. Even if they werent the best among their type they were still cataphracts, very well equipped and given their scarcity you would guess the ones you get are the talented and well trained ones.
Always shocked me a bit also their lower morale. I guess they might not be like the heitraoi that is like the elite troupe that makes the king's guard. But still seems weird for such a expensive unit to have meh morale.
June 28, 2016, 04:10 AM
Tanavar
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
my point exactly , also the historical records of their performance isin't awfull : at Panon , they routed the ptolies cavalry with easy then crashed into their rear winning the battle , at Magnesia , the Agema (under Antiochos the great they were trained and equiped like cataphracts ) and the others 3000 Cataphracts routed an entire legion and their allies with one charge , Antiochos could have won the battle but he chased like a retard again like raphia ...
the point is , they should have a higher charge value ...
June 28, 2016, 04:31 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Hetairoi are elite, the best cavalrymen available to a Hellenistic faction, that's why their morale is higher than the Kataphraktoi (and swordsmanship is better). Their stamina is higher for a very simple reason - they have less armour.
I'll have a look at the charge value, they have long lances like the other cataphracts. However, effectiveness of charge is also, because of the engine, impacted by movement speed. So Hetairoi, being faster, may sometimes pull off more effective charges even with lower charge values.
The Kataphraktoi are not Agema (meaning elites again), so they're not comparable to Antiochos' Agema at Magnesia.
June 28, 2016, 06:00 AM
Tanavar
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Thank you for taking my post into account , i only want a correct charge value for them , the swordsmanship , the moral and the stamina are correct and logical to me
June 28, 2016, 08:22 AM
Thuycidides
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanavar
why the hellcats and the hetairoi got the same charge value ? 21
the hellcats are much more heavily armored and got a longer lance so it doesnt makes sense to me.
meanwhile the parthians and the armenians got a charge value of 30
even the Persian heavy cavalry and the Baktrian Medium Cavalry got a charge value of 28 even being less heavily armored than the Hellenic Cataphracts.
...the Hetairoi doctrine isint meant for frontal charges but i tried anyways : they lose like 8 men and the pandotapoi routs.
The cavalry charges are probably too high globally. The AI detects this and always goes for the frontal charge with its cavalry, usually with good effect. You can charge a unit of hoplites in guard mode, or any similar spear unit head-on, and the spearmen will take lots of casualties.
It's kind of like vanilla M2TW, where you just charge, withdraw, and charge again with cavalry until the spear infantry rout.
June 28, 2016, 08:44 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Thank you everyone, for keeping this thread alive and making improvements in the game.
Can't play and test right now, too busy with rl.
June 28, 2016, 09:29 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thuycidides
The cavalry charges are probably too high globally. The AI detects this and always goes for the frontal charge with its cavalry, usually with good effect. You can charge a unit of hoplites in guard mode, or any similar spear unit head-on, and the spearmen will take lots of casualties.
It's kind of like vanilla M2TW, where you just charge, withdraw, and charge again with cavalry until the spear infantry rout.
As I understand it, in vanilla knights charge once and rout all before them. We're talking about the very heaviest cavalry available in the game here, and even they can't rout formed-up heavy infantry without multiple charges to the rear.
June 29, 2016, 02:42 AM
Tactics Mayers
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Why do the Iranian Sparmen and the Armenian Spearmen have such high shield values? A bunch of levy units having shields that match the Cohors Reformata's shields?
June 29, 2016, 03:17 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers
Why do the Iranian Sparmen and the Armenian Spearmen have such high shield values? A bunch of levy units having shields that match the Cohors Reformata's shields?
Because they have huge shields. Though given the review of thureos/aspis recently to take into account thickness as well as coverage, they may need looking at again.
June 29, 2016, 03:36 AM
Tactics Mayers
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
Because they have huge shields. Though given the review of thureos/aspis recently to take into account thickness as well as coverage, they may need looking at again.
How effective are the wicker shields in melee? I know how they are arrow resistant and maybe be able to resist blunt weapons but how effective are they against spears and swords?
June 29, 2016, 10:36 AM
Thuycidides
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
As I understand it, in vanilla knights charge once and rout all before them. We're talking about the very heaviest cavalry available in the game here, and even they can't rout formed-up heavy infantry without multiple charges to the rear.
The point is that it causes the AI to use stupid tactics. Whatever algorithm it's following gives the result that it's a good idea to charge spearmen head-on with cavalry.
June 29, 2016, 01:48 PM
Sarkiss
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers
How effective are the wicker shields in melee? I know how they are arrow resistant and maybe be able to resist blunt weapons but how effective are they against spears and swords?
i assume a few strikes would be enough to destroy one. this was actually one of the reasons that suggestion was made to reclassify the Armenian spearmen from "medium trained regulars" to "light irregulars". on the basis of the evidence we have, the gap could then be filled by introducing a medium-heavy aspis carrying regular spearmen that would also wear iron and bronze helmets.
June 30, 2016, 08:14 AM
Soar
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
After seeing the Bastarnai Draugai, depicted with a shield on their unit card with a zero for shield defense value, I went into a custom battle to check whether it was the picture or the stats that were in error. The answer is that their in-game models do not carry shields, but I decided to test their speed compared to other units while at it. The results were different from what you'd expect.
I placed all the units in a line at the frontmost edge of the deploy zone, facing towards the rear of the deployment zone, with gaps between the units so they wouldn't get tangled with each other while running. I then started the battle, selected all of them and gave them the order to run to a position near the rear edge of the map. I took the above screenshot once the first unit reached the target position.
Going from top to bottom, the Akontistai were the first unit to reach the finish, as you might expect. After that, strangely, the Hoplitai are in the lead, with the lightly-equipped Doryphoroi Pontikoi only a sliver behind them.
The Bastarnai Draugai are lagging significantly behind the three frontrunners, which seems like an error - they carry no shields or armor, merely javelins and a falx or some similar weapon, and are described on their unit card as "some of the fastest warriors among the Bastarnai", "trained since their youth to keep up with horses, even at full speed". Given their equipment and description, they should probably have skirmisher-like speed rather than lagging behind heavy infantry.
The Peltastai Logades and the Thureophoroi are bringing up the rear. It seems strange that they are so much slower compared to hoplites. The Peltastai Logades carry a level of armor similar to the Hoplitai, but a much smaller shield, and the duties they are described as being suitable for include screening, skirmishing, flanking and rapid marches, which seems inconsistent with their slow movement speed. The Thureophoroi carry a lighter panoply compared to the Hoplitai, and are described as benefiting from a greater degree of flexibility on the battlefield in comparison; I don't see why their speed shouldn't at least equal that of the Hoplitai.
June 30, 2016, 08:40 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
That observation seems to completely ignore the actual speed of the units in the EDU; did they start their run by faffing around with their javelins first?
June 30, 2016, 10:30 AM
Soar
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
After running the experiment several more times, I did not notice any funny business with javelins. The results were consistent between tests, other than the Doryphoroi possibly having a tendency to gain a sliver of a lead compared to the Hoplitai rather than the other way around.
Although all units started moving at the same time, it did seem kind of like the speed advantage of the Hoplitai/Doryphoroi might have more to do with initial acceleration rather than maximum speed, with the other units eventually catching up in terms of acceleration so they could maintain their relative position, but they still weren't gaining on the Hoplitai to any noticeable extent.
July 16, 2016, 08:50 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by achilles-91
Hi Rad. Do you think that phalanxes generaly are bit underpowered? I am aware of hammer and anvil tactics, and other supporting things. But i think they are bit too much underpowered. I did a lot of testing, im not saying this just like that. Still, i would like to hear your opinion. Others are also welcome to comment it.
I've tested them on 2.2b VH BAI (regular phalangites vs polybian principes), I am satisfied with the results. Yes, they lack lethality, but damn, they can hold the line! :)
That's exactly what I want from them. To pin the enemy in place, while a cavalry unit goes for the kill.
They did suffer a lot from the pila voleys, but then again, who doesn't?
July 18, 2016, 06:34 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
New patients
Late Libyan Spearmen vs (unupgraded) Lybian Swordsmen.
Same type of armor, same helmets, yet the Spearmen have an armor rating of 5, while the Swordsmen have an armor rating of 6. A +1 boost for the spearmen should do.
July 31, 2016, 10:36 PM
Tim the Enchanter
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I've noticed the lougione Toutaginoi has a shield value of 8, is this intentional?
August 01, 2016, 05:39 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
What kind of shield do they have? Thureos?
August 01, 2016, 09:14 AM
Tim the Enchanter
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
What kind of shield do they have? Thureos?
I don't think so, in their description it says they use a large leather covered hexagonal wooden shield. I'm curious because even elite gauls who are supposed to be the best equipped only have a shield value of 6. I know it says that they're a placeholder unit which will be changed in the future, is that the explanation?
On a different note, is it just me or are spearmen far more effective then swordsmen? It seems like when the swords try to do anything they get interrupted by a quick jab from a spear.
August 01, 2016, 09:17 AM
Tactics Mayers
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
What kind of shield do they have? Thureos?
The early medium spearmen are equipped with large oval or subrectagular wooden shields (7) while the late ones are equipped hexagonal ones (8).
You won't have seen it yet, but we've done a review of shields, taking thickness into account as well as coverage. Pretty much all of them have changed values at the larger end.
August 01, 2016, 11:10 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
The standard for the thureos shield is 6... let's wait and see what the change brings.
August 01, 2016, 11:15 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
You won't have seen it yet, but we've done a review of shields, taking thickness into account as well as coverage. Pretty much all of them have changed values at the larger end.
Could you please list the thickness types-levels?
I am guessing it will go from wicker to metal, wanna know what's in between.
August 01, 2016, 11:17 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Now a regular-sized thureos is 5, aspis is 6, big thureos is 6. So Thureophoroi are 4/9/5 (18) and Hoplitai are 7/5/6 (18).
August 01, 2016, 11:44 AM
Genghis Skahn
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I think aspis and scutum users get a defense penalty too, right? To represent the unwieldy nature of using that big of a shield in active defense.
August 12, 2016, 10:25 AM
Tactics Mayers
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
Now a regular-sized thureos is 5, aspis is 6, big thureos is 6. So Thureophoroi are 4/9/5 (18) and Hoplitai are 7/5/6 (18).
How significant are the revised shield values in regards to the battle speed and kill rate of the mod? Will units with high attack or armor piercing weapons be able to kill as many men in a unit as possible?
August 12, 2016, 12:30 PM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I might have caught two more subjects for balancing... will update soon.
August 12, 2016, 01:21 PM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers
How significant are the revised shield values in regards to the battle speed and kill rate of the mod? Will units with high attack or armor piercing weapons be able to kill as many men in a unit as possible?
Not significant; they're tweaks to the relative values of aspis and thureos.
August 13, 2016, 01:58 AM
Rad
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
What was the decision behind giving west celt cavalry and the (somewhat needless) mercenary version a defense skill of 3?
They seem to have been quite capable.
Camillian hastati have a shield rating of 7, but visually, their shields are about the size of the thureos, and in some cases, smaller.
August 13, 2016, 02:55 AM
Cohors_Evocata
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
What was the decision behind giving west celt cavalry and the (somewhat needless) mercenary version a defense skill of 3?
They seem to have been quite capable.
Camillian hastati have a shield rating of 7, but visually, their shields are about the size of the thureos, and in some cases, smaller.
I believe we've already amended the defense skill of the mercenaries to 6 to differentiate them as professionals from the regular variety.
Dunno about the hastati.
August 13, 2016, 05:13 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Yep, Kurepos are now "professional-grade Celtic mercenary cavalry" and have stats appropriate to that role. Leuce Epos, Eponados and Komnetsamoi have all been adjusted and synchronised with each other (they're slightly worse on their secondary attack) as a result.
Camillian Hastati now have 6, which is the default for the early scutum.
August 27, 2016, 11:29 AM
Tim the Enchanter
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
I've been doing a lot of custom battles over the past few days and it seems like whenever I have a sword unit and a spear unit of similar skill and equipment fight each other, the swords suffer a clear defeat. Is this intentional?
August 27, 2016, 11:59 AM
Genghis Skahn
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
I've been doing a lot of custom battles over the past few days and it seems like whenever I have a sword unit and a spear unit of similar skill and equipment fight each other, the swords suffer a clear defeat. Is this intentional?
No that's not really intentional. We've been aware of it for a while now, and the recent changes show things are a bit more balanced between those two.
August 27, 2016, 12:43 PM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn
No that's not really intentional. We've been aware of it for a while now, and the recent changes show things are a bit more balanced between those two.
Specifically, we've been working on their relative animation speeds, which is what is accounting for the gulf in performance.
September 12, 2016, 05:29 AM
Barnabas
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Many little stat change proposals:
Retainer infantry should be regulated for defense skill, if EBII is planning to consider them elite elite, they all should have 12, if not 9
those affected: boii retainers, celtic retainers, Ambaktoi, Agrokunoi)
Gldgmtk should have shield value 3 and a defense skill of 9 (elite cavalry like donno eporedoi)
Maure cavalry and infantry should have a defense skill of 6 (they look more like semi professional troops rather than levy to me but 3 is fine if they're levy)
Maure cavalry should have a shield value of 3.
Mepaqed Numidim should have a shield value of 3
Merkabim Garamantim should have defense skill of 9, same as Esseda
Merkabim Garamantim should have a shield value of 4 (lower than Esseda but not so little as 2 both of the javeliners on the chariot are shielded)
Parasim Garamantim should have a defense skill of 6 or 9 (if they're garmantes nobles)
Thraikioi Mezenai should have a shield value of 4
Hoplita should have a defense skill of 6 (unless it's 5 deliberately because of formation effect)
Spartiatai Hoplitai should have a defense skill of 12 (elite, similar to boii retainers)
Somatophylakes Strategou should have a defense skill of 12 (elite, similar to pritanoi bodyguard or sweboz bodyguard infantry)
Misthophoroi Hoplitai should have a defense skill of 9 (professional/mercenary grade like peltanai)
Kurepos should have a defense skill of 9 (professional/mercenary)
Epilektoi Hoplitai should have a defense skill of 12 (elite, like other infantry bodyguards)
Erínamesh ana-Arabim should have a shield value of 7 (aspis) or 8, I never encountered a value of 9 that they have)
Arezages Gustoi should have a defense skill of 12 (elite)
Redoi should have a defense skill of 3 (levy grade similar to Hippakontistai no?)
Kinnetoi Kallaekoi should have a defense skill of 6 (semi professional unless they are 9 on purpose)
Caetrata Iuventus should have a defense skill of 6 (semi professional no?)
Qala@im Balearim should have a defense skill of 9 (professional grade)
Hyperaspistai should have a defense skill of 12 (elite infantry)
Skuda Azdata should have a defense skill of 9 (noble cavalry)
Kareus should have a defense skill of 3 (if they're levy) or 6 (which is better making them similar to celtic spearmen)
Kauntikas should have a shield value of 5 (in my book lower than thuros but 6 if it's same as thuros but not 7 in any case no?)
Peltastai Indohellenikoi should be 9 (if they are professional grade which I believe they are like peltanai)
Uazali should have a shield value of 6 (big theuros grade)
Mudunup i Kappodakiya should have a defense skill of 6 (mounted versions of Nezagdar i Kappodakiya, semi professional)
Rompaianai should get a defense skill of 6 (elite but no shield) maybe 9 (because they're infantry)
Sakaya Aznya Ashwabara should get a defense skill of 9
Akhyar Hagaran should get a defense skill of 12 (elite)
Khamis should get a defense skill of 12 (elite)
Magones should get a defense skill of 9 (they may be poorly equipped but they are nobles) or 6 (if you wanna differ them from other noble cavalry)
Eqoreda very same story as Magones
Markakoi should have a defense skill of 9 (elite heavy cavalry, shielded)
Some notes: I am sincerely afraid to touch already tough as rock roman units, I am afraid to touch phalanx. I treated spear infantry similar to sword infantry when it comes to defense skill but ignore those changes if that shouldn't be the case. Hope these help.
September 12, 2016, 07:30 AM
QuintusSertorius
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Just some quick notes; hoplites aren't the same as other infantry; their big shields and tight formations constrain their defensive skill. Swordsmen get a better defensive skill than spearmen, because theirs is a more active style.
There's also been a review of shield values, in which I've also tweaked some defensive skill values. Also, only elite cavalry (mostly just bodyguards) get a 9, others cap at 6. Exceptions to that are made for famous horse-people.
I'll look in detail later.
September 12, 2016, 11:01 AM
Tactics Mayers
Re: Rad compares units - a thread for balancing.
Will club infantry be finally be useful as anti-armor infantry or at least flanking infantry? Axemen at least have javelins that allow them to weaken their enemies in preparation for a melee battle. The only advantage they have besides their numbers is that they don't have javelins messing up their charge and as such they quite effective in charge attacks.