Some slinger unit questions

1. The Balearic slingers seem to have a small shield (2 defense) in their stats, but they don't appear to be carrying one. Are they supposed to have shields, or was that removed and the stats accidentally weren't changed?

2. The Talmes (slingers) are a reform unit for some of the Celtic factions like the Aruerni and Aedui, and they show up with the riders reform. It's not that long after the start, but it's still weird they are a reform unit at all. Why is this? The Pritanoi start out with the Magusos, and I would think that the sling was an important weapon for hill forts before the time period of EB 2.

3. I'm not sure, but do the animations for slingers (I was looking at the Balearic slingers when I noticed this) look like they are spinning the wrong way? They are spinning a little too quickly to tell, which is perhaps another issue since I don't think slingers spin it around that fast. If it is the wrong way, it's not really as noticeable or as important as the first two.

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perhaps another issue since I don't think slingers spin it around that fast.

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Most of the reenactments are aiming to 30 meters target maximum. To reach much longer range, you need to spin faster. I don't know if it is too fast but I think it is ok.

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2. The Talmes (slingers) are a reform unit for some of the Celtic factions like the Aruerni and Aedui, and they show up with the riders reform. It's not that long after the start, but it's still weird they are a reform unit at all. Why is this? The Pritanoi start out with the Magusos, and I would think that the sling was an important weapon for hill forts before the time period of EB 2.

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Indeed I don't know why. There was a few sling stones found in the Mont Lassois from Hallstatt period and Aristotle said that the Ligures were good with the sling, so I don't think the slings were not in use. But maybe there is an increase during La Tène C1.

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Originally Posted by Genava

Most of the reenactments are aiming to 30 meters target maximum. To reach much longer range, you need to spin faster. I don't know if it is too fast but I think it is ok.

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The animations are a minor detail, so it’s not that big a deal. I’d really like to have Talmes from the start, since I’m biased towards slingers. I will say that spinning it that fast won’t really help that much. Spinning it around fast really kills accuracy, and I have a hard time timing a throw if the spin is fast. Thirty meters for a skilled slinger generally wouldn’t be too hard to do without spinning.

Concerning rotation speeds, I did a rough calculation a while back to figure out what's needed to reach those legendary 400 m and more of range. The rotation speed needed really just depends on the length of the sling (the shorter, the faster you have to spin), and you need to spin them pretty damn fast. The speed of the animation is good, I think. However, if you look at reenactments, and if you consider the huge force on the arm of the slinger when spinning that fast, the high sling speed is likely produced only right at the end before release and not held for several seconds like in the animation. That's informed speculation though -- I'm not aware of any sources detailing technique of using a sling.

What?! I am under the impression that there is not so much spinning involved at all with slings, perhaps apart from popular culture depictions of slings. Is the energy not transferred to the projectile by leverage very much like with solid spear-throwers or amenta? I mean that the velocity is mostly the product of a single, powerful swing during which the projectile is released.

I would like to use this opportunity to ask something that has bothered me for a while. Slings are said to have even a longer range than most non-composite bows, but still have considerably shorter range than bows in the game. What is the rationale in that? Is it because we cannot vary damage according to range and there is an assumption that the sling bullet will lose some of its momentum and perhaps much of its accuracy when fired at an arc for a longer distance?

You're right -- the projectile doesn't gain anything from spinning it around over and over. It needs a high launch speed (say, 10 rot/sec), but the slinger doesn't need to maintain that speed for more than a fraction of a second during the release (so you'll never actually go round 10 times, probably not even once at that speed). I doubt anyone could, even with a fairly light projectile. So the fast animation should likely be shorter.

Regarding the range implemented in game, I think that's come up before (can't remember where, my apologies) -- I think, as you suspect, the decision had been to give slingers the sort of range at which reasonable aiming might have been possible.

Thanks, Neyak. I now came to think that the longest range estimates given historically are probably also unrealistic and have to do with individual feats by single, highly proficient slingers working with long slings in isolation. In any warfare situation involving a number of fighters in a formation, albeit looser than a regular infantry unit, control and consistency would be highly important. You cannot have people swinging about long slings and risking killing and injuring their mates when their attempts fail or their weapons accidentally make contact with those of adjacent fighters.

Neyak, it still sounds like you are thinking about rotations. That high launch speed, which you said something like 10 rotations per second, doesn’t make sense to me. The rotating just makes sure the projectile is secure the ammo and it would be hard to do some throws from rest.

Anyways, this is a bit different direction than what I wanted for the thread. Sling physics or the like should probably be its own thread.

Septentrionalis: Apparently the modern world record is 437 m (according to Wikipedia). That's makes it plausible that in an environment where lots of people have some sling skills a good number of them might achieve 400 m, though it's unlikely to be your average shepherd.

Hirtius: I think that's just a matter of semantics. What you say makes perfect sense. You make a few slow rotations to make sure the ammo is secure, the cords are taut, etc. and you have some initial velocity to accelerate from instead of doing it from zero (just like you say), but for the actual launch you suddenly yank it forward to get the high launch speed needed for those sorts of distances. The launch corresponds therefore to accelerated rotational motion around a moving center (your hand moves forward when you launch) for only a fraction of a full rotation, which --granted-- doesn't really look like the path of a circle at all anymore.

Only slingers who use glandes (lead or clay bullets) get the advantage of longer range. Those being the Balearic, Ligurian and Greek slingers. Everyone else is using a stone, so has a shorter range as a result.

Anyways, we should probably address the initial questions. I would love this discussion, but as I said earlier, it needs a different thread. This one was for those gameplay related questions.

Quintus, do you know anything about any of the initial questions?

I've got nothing beyond what Commios put into the text for the Celtic reforms, which explains why slingers weren't used in warfare (as distinct from hunting) before they appear in-game.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

I've got nothing beyond what Commios put into the text for the Celtic reforms, which explains why slingers weren't used in warfare (as distinct from hunting) before they appear in-game.

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Huh. That’s kind of weird, as I would think they would be important for defending hillforts. The riders reform also pops up after roughly only 20 years, so I wonder why slingers would just pop up then?

Do you know anything about the other two?

Balearic slingers have shields that appear when they fight in melee; they're just not there when they're using their slings.

Animations aren't my bag, can't answer that one.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Balearic slingers have shields that appear when they fight in melee; they're just not there when they're using their slings.

Animations aren't my bag, can't answer that one.

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Thanks. Do you know if that’s intentional? That seems like a bug.

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Originally Posted by Hirtius

Thanks. Do you know if that’s intentional? That seems like a bug.

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Intentional, the models were designed that way. There was some commentary about not being able to operate a sling with that sort of shield in your left hand, since it precludes holding the ammunition.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Intentional, the models were designed that way. There was some commentary about not being able to operate a sling with that sort of shield in your left hand, since it precludes holding the ammunition.

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It’s certainly doable with the shield they have. I think the Talmes have the shield all of the time as well. But I don’t know why that would be brought up, since the shield they use is small. All you need is part of the hand open to grab something from a bag, and I’m guessing a small shield handle wouldn’t take up the entire hand space.

It also looks weird to just pull the shields out of nowhere or to not have shields but have the stats.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Only slingers who use glandes (lead or clay bullets) get the advantage of longer range. Those being the Balearic, Ligurian and Greek slingers. Everyone else is using a stone, so has a shorter range as a result.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Balearic slingers have shields that appear when they fight in melee; they're just not there when they're using their slings.

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Thank you! Brilliant; really nice touches there.