Rebuttal to David Faux’s “ The Cimbri of Denmark, the Norse and Danish Vikings, and Y-DNA Haplogroup R-S28/U152-(Hypothesis A)” Part 2
The link to part 1 is here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...7#post13294797
I plan to put this rebuttal into sections instead of following Mr.Faux’s narrative for ease of reference. I will begin with what I consider the weakest evidence following up to what I consider the strongest. I will also from this point on refer to the Teutons, Cimbri and Ambrones as the TCA.
It is with Mr. Rawlinson that we will begin.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”
http://books.google.com/books?id=g_Q...ts=19JrJb0aVD&
On Pages 151-154 is where Mr. Rawlinson begins his 6 lines of evidence, but as I said earlier the lines were be according to my belief in strength of proof, starting with the least.
In line 5, Mr. Rawlins states something along the lines of the manners and customs of the Cimbri appear to me more Celtic than German. It is admitted that their warfare was “substantially that of the Celts.” Their use of wagons was Celtic. So was the participation of their woman in battles. So was their cruel treatment of their prisoners, especially their offering them to their gods in sacrifice.
The manner of fighting is of both ethnic groups as is the wagons, women and cruel treatment of their prisoners.
Women and Wagons (please note that in most translations cart is used in place of chariots).Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Again battle among the wagons of the Usipetes and the Tenchtheri.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Wagons and women in the encampment was a common feature for both groups. This is also true of the “cruel treatment of their prisoners, especially their offering them to their gods in sacrifice.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammianus Marcellinus-“Rerum Gestarum”
Again a trait shared by many groups not just the “Celts” or “Germans”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacitus-“Annals”
The wagons, women and torture speak to no preference in this discussion, nor do I believe the physical descriptions are of any use.
Another one that I think that provides nothing in the way of discerning whether “Celtic” or “Germanic” is the situation presented by Plutarch:
I know of no other circumstance applied to either the “Celts” or “Germans” where this kind of “battle cry” took place. Regardless of this, Ligurians are neither “Celtic” or “Germanic” and had their own tongue, which leads me to wonder if there was not some kind of misunderstanding going on. This could be from misunderstanding what the Liguarians or the Ambrones were saying both to one another or even by the sources of Plutarch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutarch-“Caius Marius”
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For the 2nd section in no particular order:
The priestess of the Cimbri and their manners I do give the edge to the “Germanic” theory. This is what Strabo says on the subject:
This figures in more with “Germanic” because of other written sources that are somewhat similar:Quote:
Originally Posted by Strabo-“Geography”
There may have been a suggestion of female druids, but as J. King points out, it is obscure and dubious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Quote:
Originally Posted by John King-“The Celtic Druids’ Year”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Freeman-“War, Women, and Druids
All this being said, there could have been an unusual situation where females were allowed in this role. Religious traditions did vary from tribe to tribe both “Germanic” and “Celtic”Quote:
Originally Posted by Miranda Green-“Dying for the Gods”
The next one I give the edge to the “Celtic” theory. This is the arms and armor described in the classical authors seem to fit those of “Celtic” design. That being said, trade had been going on for long periods of time. Also the TCA had been moving through lands and battling people who would have had these type of arms and armor.
This one also I give and edge to the “Celtic” theory. Sertorius did wear “Celtic” dress and learn a bit of “Celtic”. If the TCA were “Germanic” then why didn’t Sertorius learn a little “German” instead of “Celtic”?
On the other hand there were multiple “Celtic” tribes with the TCA and they were in a “Celtic” speaking land at the time. This subject will be brought up again in the Caesar section*Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutarch, Sertorius
Next up is the name of the TCA. To this I place in the “Germanic” camp. The reason for this is:
Also according to Wikipedia:Quote:
Originally Posted by Flemming Kaul & Jes Martens-“SOUTHEAST EUROPEAN INFLUENCES IN THE EARLY IRON AGE OF SOUTHERN SCANDINAVIA-Gunderstrup and the Cimbri
On the other side you have this:Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
For the root mentioned:Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”
http://books.google.com/books?id=v7y...s=lm38FuGzf3&sQuote:
Originally Posted by Jason R. Abdale-“Four Days in September: The Battle of Teutoburg”
There will be more on the names in the Caesar section*
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For the 3rd section in no particular order:
The names of the TCA leaders would have to go to the “Celtic” camp.
Mr. Hubert also went on to say this though:Quote:
Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”
Also you have this from Mr. Rives:Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”
Also of consideration is comparing Gaiseric of the Vandals to that of the Cimbri-Gaesorix. There will be more on the names in the Caesar section*Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
The classical authors goes to the “Germanic” view.
From this list we need discuss Posidonius of Apamea:Quote:
Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”
And once again we should look at Mr. Hubert’s quote from above:Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
Posidonius did not state clearly that the Cimbri were “Celts”:Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strabo-“Geography”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diodorus Siculus-“Library of History”
Sallust, Appian, Dio and Orosius directly say they were Gallic(Orosius includes German tribes in this). Florus says they are from the extreme parts of Gaul and Siculus talks of the Cimbri in the midst of talking about Gaul. While I do believe that Florus and Siculus are saying the Cimbri are Gallic(“Celtic”), it is inferred and not direct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutarch-“The Life of Marius
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Of the classical authors mentioned above, there is some problems dealing with ethnography:
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
One other item must be said of this, by
This to me seems rather absurd, considering what is said by some of the sources he uses. Furthermore can you really ignore the writings of Caesar, Tacitus and Plutarch on the subject of ethnicity vs. geography?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Rawlinson-“Ethnography of the Cimbri”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Other examples of Caesar being beyond simple geographic ideology would be that of the Boii, Helvetii and Germani cisrhenani.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacitus-"Germania"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacitus-"Germania"
As for Plutarch he speaks of the TCA in terms of religion, customs, arms and armor, and language(this will be touched on later).Quote:
Originally Posted by J.h.W.g. Liebeschuetz-"Regna and Gentes(The Vandals)"
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For the final and what I consider the strongest evidence:
This is in my opinion the strongest point for the Cimbri being “Celtic”:
This is explained here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny-“The Natural History
As above Pliny himself may not have heard it directly or Philemon for that matter. This subject will be brought up again in the Caesar section*Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
This next one belongs to the “German” view:
This seems to portray the TCA as being alien, at least that is the way I take it. Marius had to get his men “familiarised with their appearance” and they had “language scarcely human”. The Romans had known and dealt with the Gauls for over 300 years prior to the arrival of the TCA. Once again this just seems like Polyaenus is speaking of a previously unknown people. Also there is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyaenus:-“Stratagems”
. Once again speaking of an alien/unknown people as they had a language that was unlike any other people. Perhaps Polyaenus and Plutarch thought of them as Germanic and therefore threw in the language part, as they would be a new people at this time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutarch-“The Life of Marius
The other strongest evidence for the TCA being “Germanic” is where they were from:
There are multiple classical authors who place the Cimbri and Teutons in the Jutland area, this also seems to be backed up by; “Himmerland should be read Kimber-syssael” as written by Kaul and Martens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Another point of interest is this:
This is interesting due to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Viggo Starcke-“Denmark in World History”
Bull worship and the cauldrons that were found in the Jutland area seem to coincide well with the descriptions of the TCA. A counter point is that the Cimbri encountered by Drusus was actually a similar sounding name and was therefore taken as the TCA. Strabo may have taken what Pytheas wrote and thought it was Teutones because the name seemed similar. The bull and cauldrons could be coincidence as religions could also seem similar in certain aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutarch-“The Life of Marius
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*Caesar:
There seems to me to be many parallels in the situation of names and understanding from the time of the TCA and that of Caesar. Beginning with the spy situation there was the question if the TCA spoke a “Germanic” language, then why did Sertorius learn a bit of “Celtic” instead? Here is the parallel; Ariovistus of the Suebi came over to Gaul around 71 BC and around 61 BC he became overlord to the Aedui and the Sequani/Arverni. Caesar himself made him a ‘friend of the Roman people’ in 59 BC. The Romans had to have been aware of Ariovistus before 60 BC before making him a ‘friend of the Roman people’ in 59 BC. Furthermore:
Rives goes on to say that about the same time Ariovistus crossed the Rhine defeated the Gauls and in 59 BC become ‘friend of the Roman people’ and then onto this”Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
The point of this is that most likely the Romans knew of the Germans for around 10 years, Caesar certainly knew of Ariovistus for at least a year, yet during his discussions with Ariovistus the language used was almost certainly Gallic, not Germanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
The Romans by the time of Ariovistus had to know more about the “Germani” then they did in the 100's BC, yet the Romans were still using Gallic and not “Germanic”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
The second part of the parallels of Caesar is the names of the tribes. This brings up this:
Of the Suebi and Marcomanni:Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
I may be off on the Marcomanni(does Middle High German apply?). You have Sweboz coming from Gallic tongue to Roman ears becoming Suebi.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"
The third parallel of Caesar is the names of the leaders:
Starting with Ariovistus you have a name that is “The name Ariovistus appears to be Celtic and turns up elsewhere belonging to a chieftain of the Insubrian Gauls”(J.Collis). Mr. Faux brings this up:
While Mr.Faux is clearly wrong on several points in this statement (Suevi-German tribe or Supra-tribe, not generic term/ Nasau and Cimbrius were Suevi, not Harudes) he points out the two names Nasua and Cimbrius, even though both of these were of the Germanic Suebi:Quote:
Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”
There is Maroboduus and other “Germanic” chieftains that have a “Celtic” sound to them. Again for Ariovistus and the Suebi being "Germanic":Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”
I will end this portion with a quote from John Collis of whom I mentioned earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Todd-“The Early Germans”
Conclusion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Wells-“The Celtic World”
For me I think the weight of the evidence is much in the favor of the TCA being “Germanic”. Yes the TCA did have “Celtic” arms/armor, but these could be from battles or trade, as they are also found in places like Hjortspring (gifts, battles?). The spy Sertorius didn’t need to learn German, as the TCA were surrounded by Gallic peoples and as pointed out even Caesar used Gallic interpreters for Ariovistus. Looking at the names of the TCA, the leaders names of the TCA and seeing that the same situation existed in Caesars time is very difficult to overlook. The priestess of Ariovistus and those of the TCA seem very similar and you cannot ignore that the majority of the classical authors call the TCA “Germanic”. Especially since the first person to write of the TCA after Posidonius was Caesar, who had direct contact with the Gauls who’s “fathers” would have known about the TCA. While I admit the word “Morimarusa” is troubling, after seeing the situation with parallels to Caesar it’s not hard to see this being translated via “Celtic” tongue to Roman ears. Furthermore where Polyaenus and Plutarch speak of language, it is not Gallic, as this was a familiar language. Finally you have the classical authors pointing to Jutland for the location of the TCA. The Teutons are mentioned by Pytheas (via Strabo) being near Jutland as are the Cimbri. This is an area with no “Celtic” place names nor anything else “Celtic” (exception trade and prestige items), though there was bull worship and cauldrons.