Cimbri and a rebuttal to David Faux part 2.

Rebuttal to David Faux’s “ The Cimbri of Denmark, the Norse and Danish Vikings, and Y-DNA Haplogroup R-S28/U152-(Hypothesis A)” Part 2
The link to part 1 is here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...7#post13294797

I plan to put this rebuttal into sections instead of following Mr.Faux’s narrative for ease of reference. I will begin with what I consider the weakest evidence following up to what I consider the strongest. I will also from this point on refer to the Teutons, Cimbri and Ambrones as the TCA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”

In 1877 Rawlinson wrote a very well researched monograph entitled, “On the Ethnography of the Cimbri” which was presented to the Anthropological Institute. He specifically acknowledged that there were two theories of origins–
Germanic and Celtic. He outlines the essentials of each, and provides 6 lines of evidence (e.g., their manner of making war; the documented participation of their women in battle) that point strongly to the Cimbri being Celtic. He believes that some of the opinions in favor of a German origin come from prejudices of Germans who would rather believe that the famous Cimbri (who lived among Germanic people) were culturally and biologically German. Pg. 3

It is with Mr. Rawlinson that we will begin.
http://books.google.com/books?id=g_Q...ts=19JrJb0aVD&
On Pages 151-154 is where Mr. Rawlinson begins his 6 lines of evidence, but as I said earlier the lines were be according to my belief in strength of proof, starting with the least.
In line 5, Mr. Rawlins states something along the lines of the manners and customs of the Cimbri appear to me more Celtic than German. It is admitted that their warfare was “substantially that of the Celts.” Their use of wagons was Celtic. So was the participation of their woman in battles. So was their cruel treatment of their prisoners, especially their offering them to their gods in sacrifice.
The manner of fighting is of both ethnic groups as is the wagons, women and cruel treatment of their prisoners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

Then at last of necessity the Germans drew their forces out of camp, and disposed them canton by canton, at equal distances, the Harudes, Marcomanni, Tribocci, Vangiones, Nemetes, Sedusii, Suevi; and surrounded their whole army with their chariots and wagons, that no hope might be left in flight. On these they placed their women, who, with disheveled hair and in tears, entreated the soldiers, as they went forward to battle, not to deliver them into slavery to the Romans. Book 1,51

Women and Wagons (please note that in most translations cart is used in place of chariots).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

Their consternation being made apparent by their noise and tumult, our soldiers, excited by the treachery of the preceding day, rushed into the camp: such of them as could readily get their arms, for a short time withstood our men, and gave battle among their carts and baggage wagons; but the rest of the people, [consisting] of boys and women (for they had left their country and crossed the Rhine with all their families) began to fly in all directions; in pursuit of whom Caesar sent the cavalry. Book 4, 14

Again battle among the wagons of the Usipetes and the Tenchtheri.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammianus Marcellinus-“Rerum Gestarum”

So after hastening a long distance over rough ground, while the hot day was advancing towards noon, finally at the eighth hour 1 they saw the wagons [p. 469] of the enemy, which, as the report of the scouts had declared, were arranged in the form of a perfect 2 circle. And while the barbarian soldiers, according to their custom, uttered savage and dismal howls, the Roman leaders so drew up their line of battle that the cavalry on the right wing were first pushed forward, while the greater part of the infantry waited in reserve. Book 31,12,11

Wagons and women in the encampment was a common feature for both groups. This is also true of the “cruel treatment of their prisoners, especially their offering them to their gods in sacrifice.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacitus-“Annals”

In the plain between were bleaching bones, scattered or in little heaps, as the men had fallen, fleeing or standing fast. Hard by lay splintered spears and limbs of horses, while human skulls were nailed prominently on the tree-trunks. In the neighbouring groves stood the savage altars at which they had slaughtered the tribunes and chief centurions. Survivors of the disaster, who had escaped the battle or their chains, told how here the legates fell, there the eagles were taken, where the first wound was dealt upon Varus, and where he found death by the suicidal stroke of his own unhappy hand. They spoke of the tribunal from which Arminius made his harangue, all the gibbets and torture-pits for the prisoners, and the arrogance with which he insulted the standards and eagles. Book 1,61

Again a trait shared by many groups not just the “Celts” or “Germans”.
The wagons, women and torture speak to no preference in this discussion, nor do I believe the physical descriptions are of any use.

Another one that I think that provides nothing in the way of discerning whether “Celtic” or “Germanic” is the situation presented by Plutarch:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutarch-“Caius Marius”

However, though their bodies were surfeited and weighed down with food and their spirits excited and disordered with strong wine, they did not rush on in a disorderly or frantic course, nor raise an inarticulate battle-cry, but rhythmically clashing their arms and leaping to the sound they would frequently shout out all together their tribal name Ambrones, either to encourage one another, or to terrify their enemies in advance by the declaration. [4] The first of the Italians to go down against them were the Ligurians, and when they heard and understood what the Barbarians were shouting, they themselves shouted back the word, claiming it as their own ancestral appellation; for the Ligurians call themselves Ambrones by descent. Often, then, did the shout echo and reecho from either side before they came to close quarters; and since the hosts back of each party took up the cry by turns and strove each to outdo the other first in the magnitude of their shout, their cries roused and fired the spirit of the combatants. Chapter 19

I know of no other circumstance applied to either the “Celts” or “Germans” where this kind of “battle cry” took place. Regardless of this, Ligurians are neither “Celtic” or “Germanic” and had their own tongue, which leads me to wonder if there was not some kind of misunderstanding going on. This could be from misunderstanding what the Liguarians or the Ambrones were saying both to one another or even by the sources of Plutarch.
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For the 2nd section in no particular order:

The priestess of the Cimbri and their manners I do give the edge to the “Germanic” theory. This is what Strabo says on the subject:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strabo-“Geography”

Writers report a custom of the Cimbri to this effect: Their wives, who would accompany them on their expeditions, were attended by priestesses who were seers; these were grey-haired, clad in white, with flaxen cloaks fastened on with clasps, girt with girdles of bronze, and bare-footed; now sword in hand these priestesses would meet with the prisoners of war throughout the camp, and having first crowned them with wreaths would lead them to a brazen vessel of about twenty amphorae; and they had a raised platform which the priestess would mount, and then, bending over the kettle, would cut the throat of each prisoner after he had been lifted up; and from the blood that poured forth into the vessel some of the priestesses would draw a prophecy, while still others would split open the body and from an inspection of the entrails would utter a prophecy of victory for their own people; and during the battles they would beat on the hides that were stretched over the wicker-bodies of the wagons and in this way produce an unearthly noise. Book 7,2,3

This figures in more with “Germanic” because of other written sources that are somewhat similar:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

When Caesar inquired of his prisoners, wherefore Ariovistus did not come to an engagement, he discovered this to be the reason-that among the Germans it was the custom for their matrons to pronounce from lots and divination, whether it were expedient that the battle should be engaged in or not; that they had said, "that it was not the will of heaven that the Germans should conquer, if they engaged in battle before the new moon." Book 1,50

There may have been a suggestion of female druids, but as J. King points out, it is obscure and dubious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John King-“The Celtic Druids’ Year”

To cloud the picture further, we have several unmistakable references in both classical and vernacular texts to the function of prophetess, yet it is by no means clear to what extent that function duplicated or overlapped with the responsibilities of the Druid and the Ovate. The vernacular texts suggest that women may have been Druids (or Druidesses) as well as men, and there are two obscure and slightly dubius classical references, both from the same author (Vopiscus, described below), to confirm the suggestion. From everything else we know about Celtic society, and in particular about Celtic attitudes towards women, we might easily expect women to appear as Druids as well, although all the references we have indicate that the Druid was always a man. But then, all the written references we have were written by men; moreover by either Romans or medieval Christian monks, both groups deeply immersed in a chauvinistic, patriarchal culture which would be utterly unreceptive to the notion ov women acting as priests or wielding real religious power, but which might well accord them the important but lesser role of prophetess, associated with feminine intuition. Pg88-89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Freeman-“War, Women, and Druids

Ancient Celtic women are sometimes portrayed in modern stories as enjoying complete independence and equal rights within their societies — a romantic view not supported in the classical sources. A Celtic wife was completely subject to her husband’s will just as a Roman matron lived under the rule of her husband as pater familias. On the other hand, women of the Celts generally enjoy more freedom and opportunity than their counterparts in the Greek and Roman world. It is hard to imagine a Greek wife joining her husband on the battlefield or even leading an army, as did the British queen Boudicca. Still, the limited information we have on the lives of Celtic women shows that it was above all a man’s world. Pg53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miranda Green-“Dying for the Gods”

It is telling that Strabo’s description of Cimbrian human sacrifice, with the study of the entrails, precisely mirrors Graeco-Roman prognosticatory practice with animal victims which, in the Roman religious system, required the offices of a haruspex or ‘gut-grazer’. Pg.84

All this being said, there could have been an unusual situation where females were allowed in this role. Religious traditions did vary from tribe to tribe both “Germanic” and “Celtic”

The next one I give the edge to the “Celtic” theory. This is the arms and armor described in the classical authors seem to fit those of “Celtic” design. That being said, trade had been going on for long periods of time. Also the TCA had been moving through lands and battling people who would have had these type of arms and armor.

This one also I give and edge to the “Celtic” theory. Sertorius did wear “Celtic” dress and learn a bit of “Celtic”. If the TCA were “Germanic” then why didn’t Sertorius learn a little “German” instead of “Celtic”?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutarch, Sertorius

In the next place, when the same enemies were coming up with many myriads of men and dreadful threats,1 so that for a Roman even to hold his post at such a time and obey his general was a great matter, while Marius was in command, Sertorius undertook to spy out the enemy. So, putting on a Celtic dress and acquiring the commonest expressions of that language for such conversation as might be necessary, he mingled with the Barbarians; and after seeing or hearing what was of importance, he came back to Marius. Book 3.2

On the other hand there were multiple “Celtic” tribes with the TCA and they were in a “Celtic” speaking land at the time. This subject will be brought up again in the Caesar section*

Next up is the name of the TCA. To this I place in the “Germanic” camp. The reason for this is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flemming Kaul & Jes Martens-“SOUTHEAST EUROPEAN INFLUENCES IN THE EARLY IRON AGE OF SOUTHERN SCANDINAVIA-Gunderstrup and the Cimbri

Himmerland has been pointed out as the primeval home of the Cimbri, not for archaeological reasons, but first and foremost owing to the similarity between the name of the landscape (in the early medieval sources written Himber-syssel and the name of the famous tribe. One might, like Klindt-Jensen argue that the distance from the ke to the he is too great to warrant attention (Klindt-Jensen 1949 p.3), but philologists maintain that the ke in Germanic languages underwent a transition via che to he, and that this possibly took place in the centuries around the birth of Christ (Hachmann et al. 1962 pp. 116ff). Proof of this is found i.a. in the many Germanic words and names recorded by the Latin sources in this period and in that many Indo-European words which in Latin begin with ke in Germanic begin with a he (Braten 1988 p.54). According to this, the name of Himmerland should be read Kimber-syssael, which makes it just as good an argument for the north Jutland origin of the Cimbri as the Gota-names in Sweden are for the Swedish origin of the Goths. Pg151

Also according to Wikipedia:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The origin of the name Cimbri is unknown. One etymology[7] is PIE *tk'im-ro- "inhabitant", from tk'oi-m- "home" (> Eng. home), itself a derivation from tk'ei- "live" (> Greek ?????, Latin sino-); then, the Germanic *?imbra- finds an exact cognate in Slavic se;br? "farmer" (> Croatian, Serbian sebar, Russ. sjabër).

Because of the similarity of the names, the Cimbri were at times associated with Cymry, the Welsh name for themselves.[8] However, this word is regularly derived from Celtic *Kombrogi, meaning “compatriots”.[9] Cumry is an evoluted form of the Old Welsh, with an assimilation of [b] to first [m], the second element brogi changed into bro “country” in Modern Welsh. It is hardly conceivable that the Romans would have recorded such a form as Cimbri[10][11] The name has also been related to the word kimme meaning “rim”, i.e. the people of the coast.

On the other side you have this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”

Their names do not help us to place them. That of the Teutones is Celtic in form. Germanic, Celtic, and Italic all have the root; it is an old word meaning “tribe”, “town”, “people”. [Müllenhoff, op. cit., i, p. 113; d'Arbois CCXCIX, p. 170.] The name of the Cimbri led Poseidonios to connect them with the Cimmerians, [Müllenhoff, op. cit., ii, pp. 167 ff.; Poseid., in Strabo, vii, 293; cf. Diod., v, 32; Plut., Mar., ii.] and has led modern writers to connect them with the Cymry. The ancients had an etymology for the word which was Celtic, Cimber meaning “brigand”.[Cimbri lingua Gallica latrones dicuntur. Festus, Epit., 43. Müllenhoff (ii, pp. 116 ff.) supposes that they got their Celtic name in Gaul. Old Irish has a word cimb" tribute ", " ransom", and a word cimbid" prisoner ". D'Arbois (CCXCIX, pp.205 ff.) supposes an active formation,
Cimb-r-os, from the same root, meaning one who takes prisoner.] Chapter 4

For the root mentioned:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason R. Abdale-“Four Days in September: The Battle of Teutoburg”

Teut was the proto-Germanic word for “tribe/people”. Several Germanic tribes incorporated this word into their tribal names, although in corrupted forms– the Teutons, Chatti, and Jutes. In fact, Deutschland, the German name for Germany, means “land of the people/tribes”; Deutsch is a corrupted form of teut. Pg.164

http://books.google.com/books?id=v7y...s=lm38FuGzf3&s
There will be more on the names in the Caesar section*
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For the 3rd section in no particular order:
The names of the TCA leaders would have to go to the “Celtic” camp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”

Also, all the known Cimbri chiefs had Celtic names including, Boiorix (King of the Celtic Boii tribe of Italy and Bohemia), Gaesorix (King of the Gaesatae, Rhone Valley Celts from Gaul; often recorded as Celtic mercenary warriors), and Lugius (after the Celtic god Lugh). Hubert (1934) states, All these names are Celtic, and they cannot be anything else (Ch. IV, I). He provides much more information on this and other relevant matters using a balanced and clearly unbiased approach. Pg. 1-2

Mr. Hubert also went on to say this though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”

The Cimbri were Germans, Celticized by the trade or policy of the Celts in the third and second centuries. (Ch. IV, I)

Also you have this from Mr. Rives:

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

But since the Cimbri by this point had been in Celtic lands for over a decade and had many Celtic allies, it would not be surprising that they had picked up Celtic traits; moreover, names like Boiorix could be Germanic as well as Celtic (Melin 1960b: 65-8). Pg.272-273

Also of consideration is comparing Gaiseric of the Vandals to that of the Cimbri-Gaesorix. There will be more on the names in the Caesar section*

The classical authors goes to the “Germanic” view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”

Some of the Classical authorities who stated clearly that the Cimbri were Celts include Posidonius of Apamea, Florus, Appian (e.g.,those Celts who they call Cimbrians), Diodorus Siculus, Dio Cassius, and Orosius. There are interpretive problems that have beset inquiries over the years. One problem is that in the earlier days the term “Germani” had yet to be coined and all north of the Alps were known simply as barbarians or Celts. Perhaps the best evidence is from Appian of Alexandria who wrote his “History of Rome: The Gallic Wars” about 130 AD. Here he discusses “Gauls”, “Celts” and “Germans”. Of the Cimbri he said they were a most numerous and warlike hoarde of Celtic tribes (Epit.2), whereas Ceasar overcame the Germans under Ariovistus (Epit.3), the king of the Germanic Suebi tribes.. Pg. 2

From this list we need discuss Posidonius of Apamea:

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

Moreover, it is certain that Posidonius himself identified the Cimbri not as Germani, but rather with the Cimmerians who invaded Asia Minor in the seventh century BC (F 272 Edelstein-Kidd= Strabo 7.2.2; cf. Diiod. Sic. 5.32.4, Plut. Mar. 11. 5-7). Pg.22

And once again we should look at Mr. Hubert’s quote from above:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”

Their names do not help us to place them. That of the Teutones is Celtic in form. Germanic, Celtic, and Italic all have the root; it is an old word meaning “tribe”, “town”, “people”. [Müllenhoff, op. cit., i, p. 113; d'Arbois CCXCIX, p. 170.] The name of the Cimbri led Poseidonios to connect them with the Cimmerians, [Müllenhoff, op. cit., ii, pp. 167 ff.; Poseid., in Strabo, vii, 293; cf. Diod., v, 32; Plut., Mar., ii.] and has led modern writers to connect them with the Cymry. Ch. IV, I

Posidonius did not state clearly that the Cimbri were “Celts”:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strabo-“Geography”

Poseidonius is right in censuring the historians for these assertions, and his conjecture is not a bad one, that the Cimbri, being a piratical and wandering folk, made an expedition even as far as the region of Lake Maeotis, and that also the "Cimmerian" Bosporus was named after them, being equivalent to "Cimbrian," the Greeks naming the Cimbri "Cimmerii." Book 7.2.2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diodorus Siculus-“Library of History”

And since the valour of these peoples and their savage ways have been famed abroad, some men say that it was they who in ancient times overran all Asia and were called Cimmerians, time having slightly corrupted the word into the name of Cimbrians, as they are now called. Book 5.32.4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutarch-“The Life of Marius

Others, however, say that the Cimmerians who were first known to the ancient Greeks were not a large part of the entire people, but merely a body of exiles or a faction which was driven away by the Scythians and passed from the Maeotic Lake into Asia under the lead of Lygdamis; whereas the largest and most warlike part of the people dwelt at the confines of the earth along the outer sea, occupying a land that is shaded, wooded, and wholly sunless by reason of the height and thickness of the trees, 6 which reach inland as far as the Hercynii; and as regards the heavens, they are under that portion of them where the pole gets a great elevation by reason of the declination of the parallels, and appears to have a position not far removed from the spectator's zenith, and a day and a night divide the year into two equal parts; which was of advantage to Homer in his story of Odysseus consulting the shades of the dead. 7 From these regions, then, these Barbarians sallied forth against Italy, being called at first Cimmerians, and then, not inappropriately, Cimbri. But all this is based on conjecture rather than on sure historical evidence. 11, 5-7

Sallust, Appian, Dio and Orosius directly say they were Gallic(Orosius includes German tribes in this). Florus says they are from the extreme parts of Gaul and Siculus talks of the Cimbri in the midst of talking about Gaul. While I do believe that Florus and Siculus are saying the Cimbri are Gallic(“Celtic”), it is inferred and not direct.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sallust-“The Jugurthine War”

At this period war was carried on unsuccessfully by our generals Quintus Cæpio and Marcus Manlius, against the Gauls; with the terror of which all Italy was thrown into consternation. Both the Romans of that day, indeed, and their descendants, down to our own times, maintained the opinion that all other nations must yield to their valor, but that they contended with the Gauls, not for glory, but merely in self-defense. But after the war in Numidia was ended, and it was announced that Jugurtha was coming in chains to Rome, Marius, though absent from the city, was created consul, and Gaul decreed to him as his province. On the first of January he triumphed as consul, with great glory. At that time the hopes and dependence of the state were placed on him. Chapter 114

Sallust does distinguish TCA-Gauls from the "Germanic" in the third Servile war. I do wonder what he meant by "Germanic" at this time, if it was like those of Caesar or if it was how most of the Greeks like Cassius Dio saw them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Sallustius Crispus : Histories”

Crixus and his fellow Gauls and Germans wanted to go out to confront [the Romans] and offer battle, while Spartacus [argued against attacking them]. Book 3.96

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucius Annaeus Florus-“The Epitome of Roman History”

The Cimbri, Teutones and Tigurini, fugitives from the extreme parts of Gaul, since the Ocean had inundated their territories, began to seek new settlement throughout the world, 2 and excluded from Gaul and Spain, descended into Italy and sent representatives to the camp of Silanus and thence to the senate asking that "the people of Mars should give them some land by way of pay and use their hands and weapons for any purpose it wished." 3 But what land could the Roman people give them when they were on eve of a struggle amongst themselves about agrarian legislation? Book 1, 38, 3.3 (The two books of the Epitome, extracted from Titus Livius, of all the wars of seven hundred years )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Appian-“ History of Rome: The Gallic Wars”

Shortly before the consulships of Marius a most numerous and warlike horde of Celtic tribes [the Cimbri and Teutones], most formidable in bodily strength, made incursions into both Italy and Gaul, and defeated some of the Roman consuls, and cut their armies in pieces. Marius was sent against them and he destroyed them all. Epit. 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diodorus Siculus-“Library of History”

And now it will be useful to draw a distinction which is unknown to many: The peoples who dwell in the interior above Massalia, those on the slopes of the Alps, and those on this side the Pyrenees mountains are called Celts, whereas the peoples who are established above this land of Celtica in the parts which stretch to the north, both along the ocean and along the Hercynian Mountain, and all the peoples who come after these, as far as Scythia, are known as Gauls; the Romans, however, include all these nations together under a single name, calling them one and all Gauls.

2 The women of the Gauls are not only like the men in their great stature but they are a match for them in courage as well. Their children are usually born with grayish hair, but as they grow older the colour of their hair changes to that of their parents. 3 The most savage peoples among them are those who dwell beneath the Bears and on the borders of Scythia, and some of these, we are told, eat human beings, even as the Britonsº do who dwell on Iris, as it is called. 4 And since the valour of these peoples and their savage ways have been famed abroad, some men say that it was they who in ancient times overran all Asia and were called Cimmerians, time having slightly corrupted the word into the name of Cimbrians, as they are now called. For it has been their ambition from old to plunder, invading for this purpose the lands of others, and to regard all men with contempt. 5 For they are the people who captured Rome, who plundered the sanctuary at Delphi, who levied tribute upon a large part of Europe and no small part of Asia, and settled themselves upon the lands of the peoples they had subdued in war, being called in time Greco-Gauls, because they became mixed with the Greeks, and who, as their last accomplishment, have destroyed many large Roman armies. 6 And in pursuance of their savage ways they manifest an outlandish impiety also with respect to their sacrifices; for their criminals they keep prisoner for five years and then impale in honour of the gods, dedicating them together with many other offerings of first-fruits and constructing pyres of great size. Captives also are used by them as victims for their sacrifices in honour of the gods. Certain of them likewise slay, together with the human beings, such animals as are taken in war, or burn them or do away with them in some other vengeful fashion.

7 Although their wives are comely, they have very little to do with them, but rage with lust, in outlandish fashion, for the embraces of males. It is their practice to sleep upon the ground on the skins of wild beasts and to tumble with a catamite on each side.38 And the most astonishing thing of all is that they feel no concern for their proper dignity, but prostitute to others without a qualm the flower of their bodies; nor do they consider this a disgraceful thing to do, but rather when anyone of them is thus approached and refuses the favour offered him, this they consider an act of dishonour. Book 5.32.1-7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassius Dio-“Roman History”

4 So now Gaul is enslaved, which sent against us the Ambrones and the Cimbri, and is all under cultivation like Italy itself; and ships sail not only the Rhone and the Arar, but the Mosa, the Liger, the very Rhine, and the very oceanº itself. Book 4.42.4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orosius-“Seven Books Against The Pagans”

. In the six hundred and forty-second year of the City, the consul C. Manlius and the proconsul Q. Caepio were dispatched against the Cimbri, Teutones, Tigurini, and Ambrones, Gallic and German tribes which at that time had formed a conspiracy to destroy the Roman Empire. Book 5.16

But note below of Dio:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassius Dio-“Roman History”

5 while to Caesar belonged the remainder of Spain, — that is, the district of Tarraco and Lusitania, — and all the Gauls, — that is, Gallia Narbonensis, Gallia Lugdunensis, Aquitania, and Belgica, both the natives themselves and the aliens among them. 6 For some of the Celts, whom we call Germans, had occupied all the Belgic territory along the Rhine and caused it to be called Germany, the upper portion extending to the sources of that river, and the lower portion reaching to the British Ocean.Book 53.12.5-6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassius Dio-“Roman History”

1 Such was the first war that Caesar fought, and he did not remain quiet after this beginning; instead, he at the same time satisfied his own desire and did the allies a favour. For the Sequani and Aedui, who had marked his desire and had noticed that his deeds corresponded with his hopes, were willing at one stroke to bestow a benefit upon him and to take vengeance upon the Celts, who were their neighbours. 2 The latter had at some time in the remote past crossed the Rhine, cut off portions of their territory, and rendered them tributaries, taking hostages from them. And because they happened to be asking what Caesar was anxious for, they easily persuaded him to assist them.

3 Now Ariovistus was the ruler of those Celts; his authority had been confirmed by the Romans and he had been enrolled among their friends and allies by Caesar himself during his consulship. In comparison, however, with the glory to be derived from the war and the power which that glory would bring, the Roman general heeded none of these considerations, except in so far as he wished to get some excuse for the quarrel from the barbarian, so that he should not appear to be in any way the aggressor against Ariovistus. Book 38.34.1-3

Of the classical authors mentioned above, there is some problems dealing with ethnography:

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

Other Greek writers, however, ignored the Germani altogether, and continued to divide the north between Celts and Scythians in the traditional way. This is true not only of Diodorus Siculus in the 50s and 40s BC (5.32.1) but of later authors as well. Pg.23

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

Not surprisingly, most Romans of the first century BC regarded the Cimbri as Gauls: so for example Cicero (de Oral. 2.266) Sallust (Jug114.1), and perhaps even Livy (compare Per. 77 and [Aur. Vict.] De vir. Ill. 67.5 with Vell. Pat. 2.19.3, Val. Max. 2.10.6, and Plut. Mar. 39.1). This identification fitted traditional Greek ethnography as well as Roman traditions about the Gauls who had invaded from the north and sacked the city in the early fourth century BC: the Cimbri, it was thought, must belong to the same sort of people. From the Augustan period onwards, however, Roman writers always class them as Germani (e.g. Pomp. Trog. In Just. Epit. 38.4-15, Vell Pat. 2.12.2). Pg.272

One other item must be said of this, by

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Rawlinson-“Ethnography of the Cimbri”

2. The authorities who state that the Cimbri were Celts, and not Germans, include Sallust (Jugerth.,”$114) Florus (iii.3),Appian (“Illyr.,” 2; Bell. Civ.i.29), Diod, Siculus (v.32; xiv,114), Dio Cassius (xliv. 42), and Orosius (v.16). The importance of these witnesses is greater because they evidently intend their assertions ethnically, whereas the writers who call the Cimbri Germans seem mostly to speak in a geographical sense. The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and ..., Volume 6

This to me seems rather absurd, considering what is said by some of the sources he uses. Furthermore can you really ignore the writings of Caesar, Tacitus and Plutarch on the subject of ethnicity vs. geography?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws. Book 1.1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

Since we have come to the place, it does not appear to be foreign to our subject to lay before the reader an account of the manners of Gaul and Germany, and wherein these nations differ from each other. Book 6.11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

that all the rest of the Belgae were in arms; and that the Germans, who dwell on this side of the Rhine, had joined themselves to them; Book 2.3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

Accordingly, the Volcae Tectosages, seized on those parts of Germany which are the most fruitful [and lie] around the Hercynian forest, (which, I perceive, was known by report to Eratosthenes and some other Greeks, and which they call Orcynia), and settled there. Book 6.24

Other examples of Caesar being beyond simple geographic ideology would be that of the Boii, Helvetii and Germani cisrhenani.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacitus-"Germania"

As for the nations of Peucini, Veneti, and Fenni, I am unsure whether I should assign them to the Germani or the Sarmations. To be sure, the Peucini, whom some call Bastarnae, are like Germani in speech, way of life, mode of settlement, and habitation;....46,1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacitus-"Germania"

The Veneti have taken a great many customs from the Sarmatians, for in plundering forays they roam through all the forests and hills that rise between the Peucini and Fenni. Still, they are more properly classsed as Germani, because they have fixed homes and have shields and take pleasure in moving fast by foot: all these things are at odds with the Sarmatians, who live..... 46.2

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.h.W.g. Liebeschuetz-"Regna and Gentes(The Vandals)"

For him "Germanicity" was certainly more than a matter of geographic location. For he can point out that certain peoples living to the right of the Rhine, among the so-called "Germans", are really Gauls, and the Nervii and Treveri who lived among the Gauls were, or at least themselves claimed to be, of Germanic descent. Moreover Tacitus thought that some peoples occupying the left bank, that is the Gallic bank of the Rhine were certainly Germani. So he did distinguish between "Germans and Gauls and others whom he thought non-"Germans". pg.60

As for Plutarch he speaks of the TCA in terms of religion, customs, arms and armor, and language(this will be touched on later).
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For the final and what I consider the strongest evidence:

This is in my opinion the strongest point for the Cimbri being “Celtic”:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny-“The Natural History

With reference to the Septentrional or Northern Ocean; Hecatæus calls it, after we have passed the mouth of the river Parapanisus, where it washes the Scythian shores, the Amalchian sea, the word 'Amalchian' signifying in the language of these races, frozen. Philemon again says that it is called Morimarusa or the "Dead Sea" by the Cimbri, as far as the Promontory of Rubeas, beyond which it has the name of the Cronian Sea. Xenophon of Lampsacus tells us that at a distance of three days' sail from the shores of Scythia, there is an island of immense size called Baltia, which by Pytheas is called Basilia. Some islands called Oönæ are said to be here, the inhabitants of which live on the eggs of birds and oats; and others again upon which human beings are produced with the feet of horses, thence called Hippopodes. Some other islands are also mentioned as those of the Panotii, the people of which have ears of such extraordinary size as to cover the rest of the body, which is otherwise left naked. 4.27

This is explained here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

There are few direct testimonies to the language of the Cimbri: Referring to the Northern Ocean (the Baltic or the North Sea), Pliny the Elder states:[16] "Philemon says that it is called Morimarusa, i.e. the Dead Sea, by the Cimbri, until the promontory of Rubea, and after that Cronium." The words for “sea” and “dead” were mori and *maruo- in Gaulish (muir and marbh in Modern Irish, môr and marw in Modern Welsh and mor and marv in Modern Breton).[17] The same word for “sea” is also known from Germanic, but with an a (*mari-), whereas a cognate of marbh is unknown in all dialects of Germanic.[18] Yet, given that Pliny had not heard the word directly from a Cimbric informant, it cannot be ruled out that the word is in fact Gaulish instead.[19]

As above Pliny himself may not have heard it directly or Philemon for that matter. This subject will be brought up again in the Caesar section*

This next one belongs to the “German” view:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyaenus:-“Stratagems”

When the Cimbri and Teutones, a people savage in their manners, of immense stature, with horrid countenances, and a language scarcely human, penetrated into Italy; Marius would not at first enter into a close engagement, but ordered his men to advance no further than the trenches, and within a javelin's throw skirmish with them at a distance. The Romans, after having been thus familiarised with their appearance, soon learned to despise them as savages; and desired Marius to lead them out, and give them an opportunity of distinguishing themselves against the barbarous invaders. He did so; and of a hundred thousand of the enemy few escaped; the greater part being either taken prisoners, or slain.
Book 8, 10, 1

This seems to portray the TCA as being alien, at least that is the way I take it. Marius had to get his men “familiarised with their appearance” and they had “language scarcely human”. The Romans had known and dealt with the Gauls for over 300 years prior to the arrival of the TCA. Once again this just seems like Polyaenus is speaking of a previously unknown people. Also there is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutarch-“The Life of Marius

The Barbarians divided themselves into two bands, and it fell to the lot of the Cimbri to proceed through Noricum in the interior of the country against Catulus, and of a passage there, while the Teutones and Ambrones were to march through Liguria along the sea-coast against Marius. 5 On the part of the Cimbri there was considerable delay and loss of time, but the Teutones and Ambrones set out at once, passed through the intervening country, and made their appearance before Marius. Their numbers were limitless, they were hideous in their aspect, and their speech and cries were unlike those of other peoples. They covered a large part of the plain, and after pitching their camp challenged Marius to battle 15, 4-5

. Once again speaking of an alien/unknown people as they had a language that was unlike any other people. Perhaps Polyaenus and Plutarch thought of them as Germanic and therefore threw in the language part, as they would be a new people at this time?

The other strongest evidence for the TCA being “Germanic” is where they were from:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri. Hubert-”THE GREATNESS AND DECLINE OF THE CELTS”

The expedition which Augustus afterwards sent along the coasts of Germany[Mon. Anc., 26.] came upon Cimbri, but these were only the tiny remnant of a great nation. They were then in Jutland, the Cimbric Peninsula.[Strabo, vii, 2, 1 - 4; Pomp. Mela, iii, 32; Pliny, ii, 167; iv, 95 - 7, 99; Tac.,Germ., 37; Ptol., ii, 11, 2, 7, 16. Cf. Müllenhoff, CCCLXII, ii, pp. 285 ff.] We may suppose that these had stayed at home when the rest went in search of adventure. Pytheas had encountered the Teutones. [Pliny, xxxviii, 35. Cf. Müllenhoff, op. cit., ii, pp. 476, 479; d'Arbois, CCCI, i, p. 19.] They held the trade in amber, which they got from the people of the island of Abalum ((Esel), [There is on it a village named Aboul. It is a town of apple-trees, and the island was an island of apples; cf. the old Italic Abella - Abella malifera] off the east coast of the Baltic, and sold to the merchants of the west. They doubtless lived on the Danish islands in what the ancient geographers called the Sinus Codanus.[Pomp. Mela, ii, 32, 54. After the Elbe comes the Sinus Codanus, full of islands; in ea sunt Cimbri et Teutoni . Cf. Jullian, CCCXLVII, iii, p.45.] It is very likely that they were neighbours of the Cimbri, since they combined with them, and it is certain that both extended to the seaboard between the Elbe and the Oder.[Pomp. Mela, iii, 32, 54; Pliny, iv, 99; xxxvii, 35.] Chapter 4

There are multiple classical authors who place the Cimbri and Teutons in the Jutland area, this also seems to be backed up by; “Himmerland should be read Kimber-syssael” as written by Kaul and Martens.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny the Elder-“The Natural History”

Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an æstuary of the Ocean called Mentonomon, their territory extending a distance of six thousand stadia; that, at one day's sail from this territory, is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring, it being an excretion of the sea in a concrete form; as, also, that the inhabitants use this amber by way of fuel, and sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones. Timæus, too, is of the same belief, but he has given to the island the name of Basilia. Book 37.11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Cuniffe-“The extraordinary voyage of Pytheas the Greek”

There is little that can be usefully said about the Guiones who Pytheas tells us lived in the region or about their neighbors the Teutones, except that both were known to have occupied parts of what is no the Jutland peninsula. Pg.149

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strabo-“Geography”

As for the Cimbri, some things that are told about them are incorrect and others are extremely improbable. For instance, one could not accept such a reason for their having become a wandering and piratical folk as this—that while they were dwelling on a Peninsula they were driven out of their habitations by a great flood-tide; for in fact they still hold the country which they held in earlier times; and they sent as a present to Augustus the most sacred kettle in their country, with a plea for his friendship and for an amnesty of their earlier offences, and when their petition was granted they set sail for home; and it is ridiculous to suppose that they departed from their homes because they were incensed on account of a phenomenon that is natural and eternal, occurring twice every day. And the assertion that an excessive flood-tide once occurred looks like a fabrication, for when the ocean is affected in this way it is subject to increases and diminutions, but these are regulated and periodical. Book 7.2.1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augustus-“The Deeds of the Divine Augustus”

I sailed my ships on the ocean from the mouth of the Rhine to the east region up to the borders of the Cimbri, where no Roman had gone before that time by land or sea, and the Cimbri and the Charydes and the Semnones and the other Germans of the same territory sought by envoys the friendship of me and of the Roman people. 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny the Elder-“The Natural History”

Some writers state that these regions, as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, the Venedi, the Sciri, and the Hirri, and that there is a gulf there known by the name of Cylipenus, at the mouth of which is the island of Latris, after which comes another gulf, that of Lagnus, which borders on the Cimbri. The Cimbrian Promontory, running out into the sea for a great distance, forms a peninsula which bears the name of Cartris. Passing this coast, there are three and twenty islands which have been made known by the Roman arms: the most famous of which is Burcana, called by our people Fabaria, from the resemblance borne by a fruit which grows there spontaneously. Book 4.27

Another point of interest is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viggo Starcke-“Denmark in World History”

Finally, we have in Himmerland clear proof of bull-worship, which is known to have been part of the cult of the Cimbri, and is not known to have been practiced by other Teutonic tribes. Pg.56

This is interesting due to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutarch-“The Life of Marius

5 And now Catulus, like a consummately good commander, showed that he had less regard for his own reputation than for that of his countrymen. For finding that he could not persuade his soldiers to remain, and seeing that they were making off in terror, he ordered his standard to be taken up, ran to the foremost of the retiring troops, and put himself at their head, wishing that the disgrace should attach to himself and not to his country, and that his soldiers, in making their retreat, should not appear to be running away, but following their general. The Barbarian attacked and captured the fortress on the further side of the Atiso, and they so much admired the Romans there, who showed themselves bravest of men and fought worthily of their country, that they let them go on parole, making them take oath upon the bronze bull. This was subsequently captured, after the battle, and was carried, we are told, to the house of Catulus as the chief prize of the victory. But the country was now destitute of defenders, and the Barbarians inundated and ravaged it. 23, 5

Bull worship and the cauldrons that were found in the Jutland area seem to coincide well with the descriptions of the TCA. A counter point is that the Cimbri encountered by Drusus was actually a similar sounding name and was therefore taken as the TCA. Strabo may have taken what Pytheas wrote and thought it was Teutones because the name seemed similar. The bull and cauldrons could be coincidence as religions could also seem similar in certain aspects.
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*Caesar:
There seems to me to be many parallels in the situation of names and understanding from the time of the TCA and that of Caesar. Beginning with the spy situation there was the question if the TCA spoke a “Germanic” language, then why did Sertorius learn a bit of “Celtic” instead? Here is the parallel; Ariovistus of the Suebi came over to Gaul around 71 BC and around 61 BC he became overlord to the Aedui and the Sequani/Arverni. Caesar himself made him a ‘friend of the Roman people’ in 59 BC. The Romans had to have been aware of Ariovistus before 60 BC before making him a ‘friend of the Roman people’ in 59 BC. Furthermore:

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

It seems then that by the 70s BC the Roman knew the Germani as a people in the more distant reaches of northern Gaul. There are some hints that over the next ten or fifteen years this name developed a wider application. Later writers report that in the late 70's BC Gauls and Germani made up a distinct body within the great slave revolt under Spartacus (Sall. Hist. 3.96D Maurenbrecher = 3.64D McGushin, Livy Per. 97, Plut. Crass 9.7, Oros. 5.24.6). Although these sources refer variant traditions, they all speak of Germani. The unanimity of the sources, which reflect various traditons, suggests that this identification may go back to the original accounts, and possibly to the time of the revolt itself. Pg.24

Rives goes on to say that about the same time Ariovistus crossed the Rhine defeated the Gauls and in 59 BC become ‘friend of the Roman people’ and then onto this”

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

Since only a year later Caesar was able without discussion to describe him and his followers as Germani, it is likely that this identification was already established. Pg24

The point of this is that most likely the Romans knew of the Germans for around 10 years, Caesar certainly knew of Ariovistus for at least a year, yet during his discussions with Ariovistus the language used was almost certainly Gallic, not Germanic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

It seemed [therefore] most proper to send to him C. Valerius Procillus, the son of C. Valerius Caburus, a young man of the highest courage and accomplishments (whose father had been presented with the freedom of the city by C. Valerius Flaccus), both on account of his fidelity and on account of his knowledge of the Gallic language, which Ariovistus, by long practice, now spoke fluently; and because in his case the Germans would have no motive for committing violence; and [as his colleague] M. Mettius, who had shared the hospitality of Ariovistus. He commissioned them to learn what Ariovistus had to say, and to report to him. Book 1.47

The Romans by the time of Ariovistus had to know more about the “Germani” then they did in the 100's BC, yet the Romans were still using Gallic and not “Germanic”.

The second part of the parallels of Caesar is the names of the tribes. This brings up this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

Then at last of necessity the Germans drew their forces out of camp, and disposed them canton by canton, at equal distances, the Harudes, Marcomanni, Tribocci, Vangiones, Nemetes, Sedusii, Suevi; and surrounded their whole army with their chariots and wagons, that no hope might be left in flight. Book 1.51

Of the Suebi and Marcomanni:

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

38.1. Seubi. The Germanic *sweboz almost certainly derives from the reflexive pronoun *swe, ‘oneself’, combined with the suffix -bo- (from the same root as English ‘be’); the original meaning must have been something like ‘those existing for themselves’. Pg.282

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.B.Rives "Tacitus Germania"

The name is definitely Germanic, literally ‘march-men’, that is, the inhabitants of a border region; cf Middle High German marcman. Pg. 298

I may be off on the Marcomanni(does Middle High German apply?). You have Sweboz coming from Gallic tongue to Roman ears becoming Suebi.

The third parallel of Caesar is the names of the leaders:
Starting with Ariovistus you have a name that is “The name Ariovistus appears to be Celtic and turns up elsewhere belonging to a chieftain of the Insubrian Gauls”(J.Collis). Mr. Faux brings this up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Faux-“The Cimbri of Denmark...”

58 BC- 24,000 Harudes (doubtless Charudes–see below) crossed the Rhine under the command of Ariovistus supposedly of the Suevi (although this was a “generic” word for Germanics). He demanded of Caesar one third of the Celtic lands for his allies the Harudes. The later began to devastate the lands of the Roman allies the Aedui. When word reached Ceasar about these forces under the command of Nasua and Cimbrius (clearly Cimbri-Celtic names), he was forced to act.

While Mr.Faux is clearly wrong on several points in this statement (Suevi-German tribe or Supra-tribe, not generic term/ Nasau and Cimbrius were Suevi, not Harudes) he points out the two names Nasua and Cimbrius, even though both of these were of the Germanic Suebi:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julius Caesr-“The Gallic War”

that they had not been able to purchase peace from Ariovistus, even by giving hostages: and from the Treviri, [to state] that a hundred cantons of the Suevi had encamped on the banks of the Rhine, and were attempting to cross it; that the brothers, Nasuas and Cimberius, headed them. Book 1.37

There is Maroboduus and other “Germanic” chieftains that have a “Celtic” sound to them. Again for Ariovistus and the Suebi being "Germanic":

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malcolm Todd-“The Early Germans”

Some adventurous elements from the Suebi, led by Ariovistus, had indeed established themselves west of the Rhine, having been invited in as mercenaries by the Sequani, and it was this German presence in eastern Gaul which gave Caesar a useful pretext for intervening in the affairs of the Gaulish tribes. For this westward drive of the Suebi there is other evidence, both archaeological and philological. Pg.3

I will end this portion with a quote from John Collis of whom I mentioned earlier:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin Wells-“The Celtic World”

Now in Caesar’s account, it is clear that one way, and perhaps the most significant way, of distinguishing the Germans from the Celts is by the language they speak. This is most clearly shown in the case of Ariovistus, described as ‘king of the Germans’, rex Germanorum, who appears to belong to the Suebi, ‘a people...by far the greatest and most warlike of all the Germans’. His Suebic origin is inferred from the fact that he had a Suebic wife ‘whom he had brought with him from home’, and he is said to speak Celtic only as the result of long practice in the language. The name Ariovistus appears to be Celtic and turns up elsewhere belonging to a chieftain of the Insubrian Gauls, but this may only mean, as Rudolf Much argued, that it was transmitted to Caesar by Gaulish informants in Celticized form. Note too that the Cimbri, originally from Denmark, the Cimbric peninsula, are certainly not Celts, though their personal names too are transmitted through classical writers in a Celtic form. For Tacitus also, language was the prime distinguishing mark: the Contini and the Osi, he argues, cannot be German, because the former speak a Gaulish and the latter a Pannonian language. The Roman army must have been aware of this: even if other cultural distinctions that might interest a modern ethnographer escaped them, they could hardly have failed to notice when it was necessary to change the interpreter. Pg 606

Conclusion:
For me I think the weight of the evidence is much in the favor of the TCA being “Germanic”. Yes the TCA did have “Celtic” arms/armor, but these could be from battles or trade, as they are also found in places like Hjortspring (gifts, battles?). The spy Sertorius didn’t need to learn German, as the TCA were surrounded by Gallic peoples and as pointed out even Caesar used Gallic interpreters for Ariovistus. Looking at the names of the TCA, the leaders names of the TCA and seeing that the same situation existed in Caesars time is very difficult to overlook. The priestess of Ariovistus and those of the TCA seem very similar and you cannot ignore that the majority of the classical authors call the TCA “Germanic”. Especially since the first person to write of the TCA after Posidonius was Caesar, who had direct contact with the Gauls who’s “fathers” would have known about the TCA. While I admit the word “Morimarusa” is troubling, after seeing the situation with parallels to Caesar it’s not hard to see this being translated via “Celtic” tongue to Roman ears. Furthermore where Polyaenus and Plutarch speak of language, it is not Gallic, as this was a familiar language. Finally you have the classical authors pointing to Jutland for the location of the TCA. The Teutons are mentioned by Pytheas (via Strabo) being near Jutland as are the Cimbri. This is an area with no “Celtic” place names nor anything else “Celtic” (exception trade and prestige items), though there was bull worship and cauldrons.