Future update Carthage Questions and Suggestions

I recently saw that the Carthaginian Noble Cavalry are going to be removed. This makes sense, and it frees up a unit slot to use elsewhere. I also noticed that the Libyan cavalry is getting armor. I also think I saw somewhere that the Liby phoenician cavalry are getting an additional armor point.

Some Questions:

What is being changed about the Libyan cavalry (morale, armor, total defense, recruitment, etc.)? It looks like they are getting more armor, but do things like morale and recruitment change?

Is the Sacred Band being kept? Some people have suggested that since it wasn't used since 310 BCE, around 40 years before the start time. Personally I think it should be kept, but I'd like to know if there are any thoughts from the dev team on it.

Are the reformed Iberian Panoply units going to get a change in look or stats in the next update?

Will units like the Cisalpine swordsmen recruitable through local military colonization?

Are there any plans in changing any Carthaginian mechanics like the Barcid trait or reforms? I've had a few games where I couldn't find a Barcid to fulfill the reform requirements.


Some suggestions:

The Libyan professional spearmen should probably have a higher armor value. They only have 5, while the entire unit is armored in helmets and linen cuirasses.

The Phoenician militia unit is probably the best militia unit in the game. The issue is that with regular Libyan infantry, one of my favorite units, I never have needed the militia for anything. In pitched battles this makes sense, but in garrisons the Libyans also get free upkeep. This makes the phoenician citizens kind of useless for garrisons. A suggestion would be that the Libyan infantry should have the free upkeep in garrisons removed since it is already one of the most cost effective units in the game. They also suffer from a small range. Only one can be recruited at a time in each of the three main Phoenician settlements no matter what government you have. The number should probably be increased. In addition, perhaps other settlements like the other Phoenician colonies (Lapqi, Nurri, Lilubim, Gader, and Qart-Hadast in Spain) could have one of them recruitable.

No change to the recruitment of the Libyan cavalry; I can't remember now if their mental stats changed. I don't have access to the build at the moment to check.

Sacred Band is being kept. Trarco would be the one to explain where the team is on them.

I'm sure some of the "scutarii" units have already featured on the previews. Anything shared on the feeds is going to be in the patch.

Yes, the Cisalpine Swordsmen are recruitable through Foreign Colonies.

I think there's been some work on the frequency of the traits.

The Libyan professionals don't have greaves - compare them to the Hoplitai/Liby-Phoenicians.

The range of the Phoenician militia is intentional, they are not supposed to be a regularly-used, mainline unit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

No change to the recruitment of the Libyan cavalry; I can't remember now if their mental stats changed. I don't have access to the build at the moment to check.

Sacred Band is being kept. Trarco would be the one to explain where the team is on them.

I'm sure some of the "scutarii" units have already featured on the previews. Anything shared on the feeds is going to be in the patch.

Yes, the Cisalpine Swordsmen are recruitable through Foreign Colonies.

I think there's been some work on the frequency of the traits.

The Libyan professionals don't have greaves - compare them to the Hoplitai/Liby-Phoenicians.

The range of the Phoenician militia is intentional, they are not supposed to be a regularly-used, mainline unit.

---

As far as I've seen, no "scutarii" units have been featured in the twitter updates. I think they are still on the to do list since they have scale armor which I think Trarco has said doesn't have any evidence.

That's true that the Libyan professional spearmen don't have greaves, but they only have 5 armor. For comparison, the Libyan swordsmen (early) unlocked in the same reforms have 6, the Cretan peltasts have 6, and the Thrakian colonists (early) have 7. All of these have units complete with helmets, linen cuirasses, and no greaves.

I know the Phoenician militia aren't supposed to be regularly used, but I was under the impression that they could be called in sufficient numbers in emergencies. Stat wise, they already can't compete with the Libyans. Wider recruitment would also make more historical sense. For example, I think Polybius talks about there being around 2,000 reasonably equipped levies at the siege of New Carthage. I don't think it is ever said if they were Phoenicians, and it can't be known. It is certainly possible, and Liby-phoenicians are already recruitable there after the reforms indicating that the presence of Phoenicians are already trying to be accounted for. However, I will point to that Lilibum and Nurri have Liby-Phoenician infantry but no phoenician levies. Gader doesn't have the ability to recruit a single phoenician unit despite being one of the oldest phoenician colony. It can only recruit Carthaginian settler infantry after the reforms, which don't exactly count since they represent many different ethnicities (as stated in their description). The same is true for Lapqi (Leptis Magna). Lapqi is another phoenician colony that apparently even defeated Greek attempts to colonize nearby a few centuries before. None of these cities have phoenician levies, they should at least have one to represent Phoenicians defending their homes. In addition, the prominent Phoenician colonies like Qart-Hadast and Atig should have 2 or 3 of them to represent citizens that could be called in times of emergency.
In comparison, almost every hellenic colony has levy hoplites recruitable. Even after all the reforms, at least one is always recruitable. Some cities like Sparta have 3 recruitable post reform.
This is why I suggest perhaps removing the free garrison upkeep from Libyan infantry. The Phoenicians would be more of the garrison troops, but are already inferior in attack, defense, and morale so thus would be a rare sight on the open battlefield.

Ooops, I spoilered those.

I'll have to have a look at them again and compare.

Historically, the Phoenician militia only came from the very core. Their placement is not random or coincidental, it's entirely as intended. They are only available in small numbers, because given the choice they'd prefer to serve in the fleet, rather than as infantry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Ooops, I spoilered those.

I'll have to have a look at them again and compare.

Historically, the Phoenician militia only came from the very core. Their placement is not random or coincidental, it's entirely as intended. They are only available in small numbers, because given the choice they'd prefer to serve in the fleet, rather than as infantry.

---

Thanks for clearing up the other stuff.

As for the militia, as I said, they get beat in stats by the Libyans. I also said they would be called up to fight in emergencies. If we are to believe Diodorus Siculus, then the Carthaginians called 40,000 infantry, 1000 cavalry, and 2000 chariots to fight Agathocles at White Tunis. These numbers are probably wrong (especially for the chariots), but shows that Phoenicians could be moved in large numbers if need be. Carthaginian citizens were also present at Zama, during battles in the mercenary war, and possibly at Bagradas. I think these instances support a larger recruitment pool for levies.
In the description this unit is "Carthaginian citizen infantry", but as I said previously it could be used as a Phoenician levy unit in all of the colonies. It seems weird that for several of the cities we don't have any representation of Phoenician citizens to defend themselves. If your argument should be that phoenician citizens only came from the core, then all the Liby Phoenician heavy infantry should be eliminated outside of the core Carthaginian provinces. Even in those places, it doesn't make sense for every citizen to be as well equipped as they are. In the colonies without any, like Gader, Lapqi, and the Ibossim, they probably deserve something.

One other Carthage suggestion, there are probably too many Balearic Slingers recruitable. They are one of my favorite units, but recruitment allows me to use way more Balearic Slingers than likely existed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

Is the Sacred Band being kept? Some people have suggested that since it wasn't used since 310 BCE, around 40 years before the start time. Personally I think it should be kept, but I'd like to know if there are any thoughts from the dev team on it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Sacred Band is being kept. Trarco would be the one to explain where the team is on them.

---

Yes, it is explained in the Carthaginian Army Composition thread: "The last time that the Sacred Band is mentioned in the written sources is during the battle against Agathocles in 310 BC. They fought bravely in the right flank led by Hanno. We don't know if this institution remained during the Punic Wars, but if it didn't, in EBII, they can represent the wealthiest Carthaginian citizens of this army".

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...my-Composition

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

Are the reformed Iberian Panoply units going to get a change in look or stats in the next update?

---

Yes, they are receiving some changes (or at least some of them): removed fiction armours, added organic ones, more accurate falcatas, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

Are there any plans in changing any Carthaginian mechanics like the Barcid trait or reforms? I've had a few games where I couldn't find a Barcid to fulfill the reform requirements.

---

Yes, Carthaginian will receive a completely new political system with much more choices eventually. Once this project is finished, we will able to work on other matters such as Barcids, events, reforms, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

They also suffer from a small range. Only one can be recruited at a time in each of the three main Phoenician settlements no matter what government you have. The number should probably be increased. In addition, perhaps other settlements like the other Phoenician colonies (Lapqi, Nurri, Lilubim, Gader, and Qart-Hadast in Spain) could have one of them recruitable.

---

This unit represents the citizens of Carthage this why they are not available in other Punic cities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

As for the militia, as I said, they get beat in stats by the Libyans. I also said they would be called up to fight in emergencies. If we are to believe Diodorus Siculus, then the Carthaginians called 40,000 infantry, 1000 cavalry, and 2000 chariots to fight Agathocles at White Tunis. These numbers are probably wrong (especially for the chariots), but shows that Phoenicians could be moved in large numbers if need be. Carthaginian citizens were also present at Zama, during battles in the mercenary war, and possibly at Bagradas. I think these instances support a larger recruitment pool for levies. In the description this unit is "Carthaginian citizen infantry", but as I said previously it could be used as a Phoenician levy unit in all of the colonies. It seems weird that for several of the cities we don't have any representation of Phoenician citizens to defend themselves. If your argument should be that phoenician citizens only came from the core, then all the Liby Phoenician heavy infantry should be eliminated outside of the core Carthaginian provinces. Even in those places, it doesn't make sense for every citizen to be as well equipped as they are. In the colonies without any, like Gader, Lapqi, and the Ibossim, they probably deserve something.

---

Probably, the best way to represent non-Carthaginian Punic soldiers is through the Liby-Phoenician hoplite. The problem is the lack of consensus regarding the meaning of Liby-Phoenician. In EBII the recruitment of this unit is more or less related to the idea that the Liby-Phoenicians were the non-Carthaginian Phoenicians from Africa, this is why they don't appear in Gader (where, BTW, we don't know anything about the local soldiers, fleet, etc.). However, we could expand the recruitment of this unit to all the Punic city-states if, after the revamp, we want that this unit abstractly represents Punic or Punicised local warriors too.


---

EDIT: Also, for the players of Carthage: feel free to make all the suggestions you want, especially from a gameplay perspective (but also from historical perspectives if you want), they could be useful once we have to revise recruitment, stats, etc. once we have the new political system written and integrated.

Trarco, the Barci/anti-Barcid traits need to be something that new FMs can get. Currently, only the starting FMs have them and that makes the reforms troublesome. Idk what you have in mind for the future, but if it involves two parties, they need to be readily attainable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rad

Probably, the best way to represent non-Carthaginian Punic soldiers is through the Liby-Phoenician hoplite. The problem is the lack of consensus regarding the meaning of Liby-Phoenician. In EBII the recruitment of this unit is more or less related to the idea that the Liby-Phoenicians were the non-Carthaginian Phoenicians from Africa, this is why they don't appear in Gader (where, BTW, we don't know anything about the local soldiers, fleet, etc.). However, we could expand the recruitment of this unit to all the Punic city-states if, after the revamp, we want that this unit abstractly represents Punic or Punicised local warriors too.

---

This explanation does clear up things. Consensus maybe difficult toa chieve but I eblieve it would be a reasonable aproach. It would be good to emphasize in game that the unit represents that though if it comes to be that wayt. Doesn't seem like theres a lot of alternatives though, and I dont think we want a new unit either to represent those punic/punicised locals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rad

This unit represents the citizens of Carthage this why they are not available in other Punic cities.

---

About the militia, I think that what Hirtius meant is that right now you lack the local levies one would expect in all these other cities. Of course with the approach you mention of what the unit represents right now, the recruitment distribution makes sense but that basically means theres no phoenician/punic levies whatsoever as there isnt any other unit filling that spot elsewhere right now. What would you think makes a better alternative for that representation? Or is there a reason to not have levies in most places but the core and have all units be either Liby-Phoenician hoplites or more profesional?

Lol @ Jervaj :D

I did not say that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

One other Carthage suggestion, there are probably too many Balearic Slingers recruitable. They are one of my favorite units, but recruitment allows me to use way more Balearic Slingers than likely existed.

---

Now this is something that I agree should be revises by the team. I have played recently a test campaign for Carthage and the overall availability of the Balearic slingers was just too much. The Balearic islands should be important due to being able to recruit this unit but they aren't because you basically can recruit them almost everywhere in late game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rad

Trarco, the Barci/anti-Barcid traits need to be something that new FMs can get. Currently, only the starting FMs have them and that makes the reforms troublesome. Idk what you have in mind for the future, but if it involves two parties, they need to be readily attainable.

---

Yes, we want to revamp that system too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jervaj

About the militia, I think that what Hirtius meant is that right now you lack the local levies one would expect in all these other cities. Of course with the approach you mention of what the unit represents right now, the recruitment distribution makes sense but that basically means theres no phoenician/punic levies whatsoever as there isnt any other unit filling that spot elsewhere right now. What would you think makes a better alternative for that representation? Or is there a reason to not have levies in most places but the core and have all units be either Liby-Phoenician hoplites or more profesional?

---

An alternative to represent the Punic populations that inhabited outside of Carthage and the Punic core of northern Africa may be a small pool of Liby-Phoenicians mixed with some local levies or semi-pros to represent mixed populations. Maybe we could implement this in the revamped system, although honestly, I like the idea of having an African core where you recruit the Punic soldiers and at the same time, you have limited Punic and Libyan recruitment around the Mediterranean (until you obtain the military colonies). This way, the player is forced to prepare the campaigns in the Punic core if you want an accurate army composition, being the Mediterranean areas the places where you obtain allies, auxiliaries and mercenaries. This also allows us, more or less, to represent the fact that Carthaginians armies weren't permanent. So, I am not sure if adding Liby-Phoenicians around the western and central Mediterranean is the best idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

One other Carthage suggestion, there are probably too many Balearic Slingers recruitable. They are one of my favorite units, but recruitment allows me to use way more Balearic Slingers than likely existed.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lusitanio

Now this is something that I agree should be revises by the team. I have played recently a test campaign for Carthage and the overall availability of the Balearic slingers was just too much. The Balearic islands should be important due to being able to recruit this unit but they aren't because you basically can recruit them almost everywhere in late game.

---

We're using them as a placeholder for the Ligurian Slingers at the moment, that's why they're all over Sicily and the islands. There isn't another unit remotely close that we could use instead of them.

What's with your security standards these last couple of days, QS?

Trarco, Jervaj is right on what I meant. I'm saying the Carthaginian citizen levies should just have the name changed to be Phoenician levies, that way they can be used for any of the colonies. The problem with LibyPhoenicians is that they are a great unit, and they are already getting more representation than they probably need in the game.

I know we don't know anything about Gader on this, but I think we do know about Lapqi repelling an attempted Greek settlement. It's not too far out there to guess that the Phoenician settlers themselves had at least some military capability.

This wouldn't really increase Punic recruitment much around the mediterranean since they are garrison soldiers. If you use Liby Phoenicians, that's a different situation, they're a good unit. I don't think any Carthage player uses those levies as part of a regular army. It's really the perfect unit for representation, all it needs is a name change. You can even swap out unnecessary Liby-Phoenicians for this unit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

Trarco, Jervaj is right on what I meant. I'm saying the Carthaginian citizen levies should just have the name changed to be Phoenician levies, that way they can be used for any of the colonies. The problem with LibyPhoenicians is that they are a great unit, and they are already getting more representation than they probably need in the game.

I know we don't know anything about Gader on this, but I think we do know about Lapqi repelling an attempted Greek settlement. It's not too far out there to guess that the Phoenician settlers themselves had at least some military capability.

---

Yeah, but Carthaginians had the hegemonic control of the area, so it also affected Carthage herself. Anyway, I have no doubts that the Punic city-states had to have some sort of military forces, for example, after the Second Punic War, the Punic city-states of Malaka and Seks wanted to rebel against Rome. However, they were supporting two Turdetanian petty kings, so maybe the military importance of these cities was scarce, especially, after centuries under the Carthaginian hegemony.

Here, the problem is that we don't know how they fought or how they were. Maybe an inhabitant of a Punic city from the Iberian Peninsula didn't fight as another citizen-soldier from a city of Africa. For example, it seems that Tartessians were the result of a strong interaction between locals and Phoenicians from the southern Iberian Peninsula. Also, this Tartessian area shared features (material culture) with northwestern Africa forming an (artificial) area called "Circle of the Straight" by the archaeologists. Meanwhile, we find a different material culture in the Central Mediterranean Punic world. Then, we have the "problem of the Tophet" an important "Punic" institution but that doesn't appear in all the Punic city-states.

In summary, I support the idea of speak about "cultural Punic identity" because the different Punic cities shared the same script, gods, material culture (in some cases) and funeral rites. However, that doesn't prove the existence of a political/ethnic Punic identity. In other words, it's wouldn't be necessarily accurate to have a levy hoplite unit shared by all the Punic city-states.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirtius

This wouldn't really increase Punic recruitment much around the mediterranean since they are garrison soldiers. If you use Liby Phoenicians, that's a different situation, they're a good unit. I don't think any Carthage player uses those levies as part of a regular army. It's really the perfect unit for representation, all it needs is a name change. You can even swap out unnecessary Liby-Phoenicians for this unit.

---

In some way, you are right, and that could be a solution from a gameplay perspective, especially, now that we have Punic city-states. However, this change would remove the unique nature of the Carthaginian citizens and player would lose the sense of having a unit of appreciated citizens whose use should be limited to Africa (I know that this would only concern the ones who love roleplaying). On the other hand, the current Greek levy hoplite is a "jack of all trades" that allows us to represent the citizen-soldiers of all the city-states, so (in terms of gameplay) the Punic one may work similarly (although again I want to remind the lack of evidence for this "Punic levies" especially, if it is compared with the Greek one).

We will have to think about it, the main cons are that we would lose a special and important feature of Carthaginian warfare (having a unit of citizens that don't fight outside Africa).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trarco

Yeah, but Carthaginians had the hegemonic control of the area, so it also affected Carthage herself. Anyway, I have no doubts that the Punic city-states had to have some sort of military forces, for example, after the Second Punic War, the Punic city-states of Malaka and Seks wanted to rebel against Rome. However, they were supporting two Turdetanian petty kings, so maybe the military importance of these cities was scarce, especially, after centuries under the Carthaginian hegemony.

Here, the problem is that we don't know how they fought or how they were. Maybe an inhabitant of a Punic city from the Iberian Peninsula didn't fight as another citizen-soldier from a city of Africa. For example, it seems that Tartessians were the result of a strong interaction between locals and Phoenicians from the southern Iberian Peninsula. Also, this Tartessian area shared features (material culture) with northwestern Africa forming an (artificial) area called "Circle of the Straight" by the archaeologists. Meanwhile, we find a different material culture in the Central Mediterranean Punic world. Then, we have the "problem of the Tophet" an important "Punic" institution but that doesn't appear in all the Punic city-states.

In summary, I support the idea of speak about "cultural Punic identity" because the different Punic cities shared the same script, gods, material culture (in some cases) and funeral rites. However, that doesn't prove the existence of a political/ethnic Punic identity. In other words, it's wouldn't be necessarily accurate to have a levy hoplite unit shared by all the Punic city-states.

---

You're right in that this would be based on a number of assumptions that might not be accurate for all Phoenicians, but that is a little unfair to say that for one unit. Many if not most of the units in this game are based on at least a few assumptions. It's hard to know the nature or prevalence of equipment that doesn't survive and isn't recorded by historians. So I think it's a good idea to make our best guesses. What we know is that most of these colonies were under Carthaginian hegemony, and if I had to guess the Carthaginians were probably a little forceful in at least some occasions. It's not perfect, but I think it would probably be the best way to represent them. If you feel it doesn't work for the Iberian colonies, these can at least be used for the more central Mediterranean colonies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trarco

In some way, you are right, and that could be a solution from a gameplay perspective, especially, now that we have Punic city-states. However, this change would remove the unique nature of the Carthaginian citizens and player would lose the sense of having a unit of appreciated citizens whose use should be limited to Africa (I know that this would only concern the ones who love roleplaying). On the other hand, the current Greek levy hoplite is a "jack of all trades" that allows us to represent the citizen-soldiers of all the city-states, so (in terms of gameplay) the Punic one may work similarly (although again I want to remind the lack of evidence for this "Punic levies" especially, if it is compared with the Greek one).

We will have to think about it, the main cons are that we would lose a special and important feature of Carthaginian warfare (having a unit of citizens that don't fight outside Africa).

---

I don't think it would be too much of a loss. I can't speak for others, but this unit has never been appreciated by me. It has a mere 3 units recruitable at any time (2 of which aren't even in Carthage) and is inferior in most ways to the plentiful Libyans who are more common. Both the Libyans and Liby-Phoenicians also have free upkeep in garrisons, making this worse unit redundant. They can't even fulfill their role from a role-play perspective and protect Carthage in times of crisis because you can only ever summon 1 at a time within Carthage.
As things are, 2/3 of the "Carthaginian citizens" you can create are in the other two cities in Africa. I don't doubt there might have been a few citizens in those cities, but having a majority of your citizens coming from outside Carthage is a bit weird. If this is the case, why doesn't Lilubim get them?

If you make it a general Phoenician levy, you can still role-play. In general, these units aren't meant to be moved around since they are levies. They'll most likely be hanging around in the city you recruited them. They just have a different name, they are still citizens of their respective cities. Ultimately you would somewhat lose the connection to one city, but you can also give more character and representation to the often ignored Phoenician colonies elsewhere. I'm guessing that Lapqi, Nurri, Ibossim, and Lilubim could probably use one. Since you'd already be updating them, you could increase the amount available in the core provinces of Africa to 2 or 3 so you can actually summon a respectable citizen force should your mercenaries go on strike.

From a purely gamey perspective, your suggestion makes sense and allow us to keep most of the Liby-Phoenicians in Africa. Definitely it's food for thought and we could consider it during the revamp but I can't promise anything. After all, we need to know how the recruitment of the new colonies will work and how this unit fits in the new system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jervaj

This explanation does clear up things. Consensus maybe difficult toa chieve but I eblieve it would be a reasonable aproach. It would be good to emphasize in game that the unit represents that though if it comes to be that wayt. Doesn't seem like theres a lot of alternatives though, and I dont think we want a new unit either to represent those punic/punicised locals.



About the militia, I think that what Hirtius meant is that right now you lack the local levies one would expect in all these other cities. Of course with the approach you mention of what the unit represents right now, the recruitment distribution makes sense but that basically means theres no phoenician/punic levies whatsoever as there isnt any other unit filling that spot elsewhere right now. What would you think makes a better alternative for that representation? Or is there a reason to not have levies in most places but the core and have all units be either Liby-Phoenician hoplites or more profesional?

---

Indeed Rad, big mess up. This was suppsoed to be Trarco both times. I honestly dont know what I did xD