Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bosnian_King

So it would be really historical incorrect to say that Serbia did not fall after the battle of Kosovo -1393. Even if some parts of serbia were free. At the same way it would be strange to say that Bosnia did not fell after the killing of our king; because a new bosnian kingdom was recognised by Hungarians and Otomans and this kingdom lasted till 1530. But no serious historian wou:laughter:d say that Bosnia felt in 1530. No! Bosnia felt after the battle of Bobovac and Serbia after the batlle of Kosovo. Between those two batlles 70 years past.

---

this is wrong on so many levels.
please read about "Despotovina" period in Serbian history.

to summarize what we have about "Krstajni so far":

"Krstajni" - official state religion in B.
symbol is cross inside circle
http://www.fojnica.de/redosljed/krug_kulinban.jpg

there will be at least 3 levels of church buildings:
1. hiža (small prayer-house)
2. chapel
3. small church
+
monastery

"Gost" instead of priests as campaign map characters which can be promoted to "Veliki gost" (or "Djed"?)

additional buildings that will allow Bosnian player to manage large percentage of Catholics or Orthodox inside his state without them revolting.
so Bosnia should have advantage of being less prone to religious unrest by Catholic or Orthodox subjects. But conversion rate from Catholic and Orthodox to Krstjani should be lower (than other way around).

And i will talk to il_duce about making scripts which will enable Bosnian player to change its state religion to Catholic or Orthodox if he chooses to. but this will have its cost in unrest amongst followers of "Krstjani" religion (maybe even open rebellion of nobility), and advantages of improving relations with Catholic or Orthodox factions.
and money reward from Pope if he chooses Catholicism ;).
Changing state religion will have positive and negative sides and player should be very careful with this, and choose wisely what is in his best interest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matko

this is wrong on so many levels.
please read about "Despotovina" period in Serbian history.

to summarize what we have about "Krstajni so far":

"Krstajni" - official state religion in B.
symbol is cross inside circle
http://www.fojnica.de/redosljed/krug_kulinban.jpg

there will be at least 3 levels of church buildings:
1. hiža (small prayer-house)
2. chapel
3. small church
+
monastery

"Gost" instead of priests as campaign map characters which can be promoted to "Veliki gost" (or "Djed"?)

additional buildings that will allow Bosnian player to manage large percentage of Catholics or Orthodox inside his state without them revolting.
so Bosnia should have advantage of being less prone to religious unrest by Catholic or Orthodox subjects. But conversion rate from Catholic and Orthodox to Krstjani should be lower (than other way around).

And i will talk to il_duce about making scripts which will enable Bosnian player to change its state religion to Catholic or Orthodox if he chooses to. but this will have its cost in unrest amongst followers of "Krstjani" religion (maybe even open rebellion of nobility), and advantages of improving relations with Catholic or Orthodox factions.
and money reward from Pope if he chooses Catholicism ;).
Changing state religion will have positive and negative sides and player should be very careful with this, and choose wisely what is in his best interest.

---

I like everything in this post... +rep

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matko

And i will talk to il_duce about making scripts which will enable Bosnian player to change its state religion to Catholic or Orthodox if he chooses to. but this will have its cost in unrest amongst followers of "Krstjani" religion (maybe even open rebellion of nobility), and advantages of improving relations with Catholic or Orthodox factions.
and money reward from Pope if he chooses Catholicism ;).
Changing state religion will have positive and negative sides and player should be very careful with this, and choose wisely what is in his best interest.

---

It is fine that you will make those scripts in which you will be able to change state relligion. But it is not accurate in the histirical sense. Because only the faith of the bosnian church was the state religion. Now if you change it into catholic than that would be totally different from how it in reallity was.

It is better to make the bosnian relligion as the state relligion (without possibility of changing). To put some orthodox and catholics in there. And to make a script in which the the Hungarian kingdom will attack you if you try to make the bosnian church dominant in regions where major catholics live. And that Serbia will attack you if you try to make Hum a "bosnian church" province. Something like that would be historical accurate and you guys say that you want to be historical accurate. Making another relligion the official relligion would be inacceptable from the perspective of accuracy; that's for sure.

Bosnian_King you said earlier that there are no bosnian churches left because the king tried to convert to catholic religion so he could get help of the pope in war against ottomans and destroyed them all, so why isnt it historically accurate to make an option that alows bosnian faction to change religion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dabela

Bosnian_King you said earlier that there are no bosnian churches left because the king tried to convert to catholic religion so he could get help of the pope in war against ottomans and destroyed them all, so why isnt it historically accurate to make an option that alows bosnian faction to change religion?

---

Because the official relligion was the relligion of the bosnian church. All the bosnian kings exept the last one recognised this relligion as the official relligion. Now if you make it possible to change this then the whole bosnian faction would be not historical accurate.

Because the essence of bosnian medieval periods is the fight between the bosnian church, which was protected by the king, and the catholic Hungarian church. This is the essence of the Bosnian faction from ban Kulin towards 1460. when the last bosnian king destroyed this church in the hope that he would save his ass.

If you make a catholic relligion the state relligion then:

1)Bosnia would never be able to coronate her first king; because the catholic church did not accept a bosnian coronation --> The hungarian crown prevented that.
2)Bosnia would be assmiliated into the hungarian kingdom very fast. Many of the nobles would just choose side for Hungaria.

Then whole the concept of the game would be not historical correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bosnian_King

It is fine that you will make those scripts in which you will be able to change state relligion. But it is not accurate in the histirical sense. Because only the faith of the bosnian church was the state religion. Now if you change it into catholic than that would be totally different from how it in reallity was.

It is better to make the bosnian relligion as the state relligion (without possibility of changing). To put some orthodox and catholics in there. And to make a script in which the the Hungarian kingdom will attack you if you try to make the bosnian church dominant in regions where major catholics live. And that Serbia will attack you if you try to make Hum a "bosnian church" province. Something like that would be historical accurate and you guys say that you want to be historical accurate. Making another relligion the official relligion would be inacceptable from the perspective of accuracy; that's for sure.

---

and last 2 Bosnian kings (Tomaš & Tomašević) did not convert to Catholicism?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matko

and last 2 Bosnian kings (Tomaš & Tomašević) did not convert to Catholicism?

---

All the bosnian kings were catholics because this was the only context in which they were able to surfive within the political climate of that time. Tomas still protected the bosnian church and Tomas recognised the bosnian church as the state church (see the letter which he wrote in 1459 I think). It does not mean that the Bosnian church wasnt the state church if the king was catholic.

The bosnian church crowned the bosnian kings. It was tottally impossible to let a bosnian king be croned by a catholic church. That's why the bosnian church crowned them. But they had to marry as catholics, to live as catholics, and to die as catholics. But some of the Bosnian rulers didn't even do that and openly said: We are "bosnian christains".

But this are the basics. I really hoped that there were people who knew a little bit more about the bosnian history.

Well, if everything goes well with the cultural system, the bosnian king could be whatever the player wants him to be (orthodox, catholic, muslim, krstjan).

If we adopt this system, it doesnt really matter what was the "state religion". It is important to certain extent, but it wont determine the wars, but other factors.

we are discussing implementing character traits for fine tuning of this delicate situation.

i had Bosnia in mind but perhaps it could used somewhere else.

in theory:
-character traits of the King influence conversion rate and unrest in Kingdom on global scale (and perhaps on local scale in province where king is located).

in practice:
- king of Bosnia can be:
1. Devout "Catholic". negative effects amongst "Krstjani" population. could lead to rebellion. in extreme to civil war - shadow faction appears. Diplomatic improves diplomatic relations with all catholic Factions. $$ gift from Pope. negative effect on conversion to "Krstjani" religion even if it is a state religion.
2. Appears "Catholic" - at least pretends to be officially Catholic, even if his true religious views does lie somewhere else (Krstjani). no negative effects on public unrest. no effect on diplomacy.
3. Openly "Krstjan" - positive effects (happiness) to Krstjani population. bonus to conversion to "Krstjani" religion. negative effects on diplomacy to booth catholic and orthodox nations. possibility of crusade ?

-same thing can be done with Orthodox.
-maybe we can grade it to more than 3 levels.

-those traits would be earned by certain actions just like other traits.
building some buildings, visiting churches or monasteries on the map. and others.


PS
to Bosnian_King
Stjepan Tomašević received a crown from the Pope
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BOSN...asevicdied1463

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matko

we are discussing implementing character traits for fine tuning of this delicate situation.

i had Bosnia in mind but perhaps it could used somewhere else.

in theory:
-character traits of the King influence conversion rate and unrest in Kingdom on global scale (and perhaps on local scale in province where king is located).

in practice:
- king of Bosnia can be:
1. Devout "Catholic". negative effects amongst "Krstjani" population. could lead to rebellion. in extreme to civil war - shadow faction appears. Diplomatic improves diplomatic relations with all catholic Factions. $$ gift from Pope. negative effect on conversion to "Krstjani" religion even if it is a state religion.
2. Appears "Catholic" - at least pretends to be officially Catholic, even if his true religious views does lie somewhere else (Krstjani). no negative effects on public unrest. no effect on diplomacy.
3. Openly "Krstjan" - positive effects (happiness) to Krstjani population. bonus to conversion to "Krstjani" religion. negative effects on diplomacy to booth catholic and orthodox nations. possibility of crusade ?

-same thing can be done with Orthodox.
-maybe we can grade it to more than 3 levels.

-those traits would be earned by certain actions just like other traits.
building some buildings, visiting churches or monasteries on the map. and others.


PS
to Bosnian_King
Stjepan Tomašević received a crown from the Pope
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BOSN...asevicdied1463

---

Tomasevic never was able to put that crown on his head. Because that crown was under way when Tomasevic' head was chopped off by the Turks.

So what this is what Tomasevic did. He, in a despreate attempt to save bosnia and himself in the first place; first sent diplomats to Hungaria; the Pope etc. to ask them for help against the Turks. No help came. Because who would help a "heretic state?" and who would help a king which a "heretic church"T crowned to king?

Tomasevic decided to destroy the Bosnian church and to declare a Bosnia a catholic state. In that time Hercegovina was full of Bosnian refugees (Bosnian Krscans) who fled ftom the prosecution of Tomasevic. And the proud grandfathers of the Bosnian church became refugees in dalmatian cities or they were just killed. Many Bosnian christians were sold as slaves in Dubrovnik.

And then the pope accepted Bosnia totally and sended a crown to Bosnia. But it was too late; because this crown and the help of the pope came too late.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bosnian_King

Tomasevic never was able to put that crown on his head. Because that crown was under way when Tomasevic' head was chopped off by the Turks.

So what this is what Tomasevic did. He, in a despreate attempt to save bosnia and himself in the first place; first sent diplomats to Hungaria; the Pope etc. to ask them for help against the Turks. No help came. Because who would help a "heretic state?" and who would help a king which a "heretic church"T crowned to king?

Tomasevic decided to destroy the Bosnian church and to declare a Bosnia a catholic state. In that time Hercegovina was full of Bosnian refugees (Bosnian Krscans) who fled ftom the prosecution of Tomasevic. And the proud grandfathers of the Bosnian church became refugees in dalmatian cities or they were just killed. Many Bosnian christians were sold as slaves in Dubrovnik.

And then the pope accepted Bosnia totally and sended a crown to Bosnia. But it was too late; because this crown and the help of the pope came too late.

---

well i agree that changing official religion in our mod should be a drastic move with possible big negative effects and not something a player can easily do whenever he feels to. so player must be really careful with this or he can ruin the state.

BUT if there are extreme circumstances player can choose to make that move. just like Tomašević tried because he felt that could save the kingdom.
One of main motive of this conversion in mod should be diplomatic - improvement of relation with Catholic factions (or Orthodox),
changing religion would help Bosnia to ally itself with Hungary, Austria or some other strong Catholic faction. this could be to protect itself from Ottomans or some other superpower, or to make a stable peace with Hungary if it proves to be to strong for Bosnia.
Other motive is also opportunistic. Lets say Bosnian player manages to military defeat Serbia and conquer the whole Serbian state. In this scenario "Krstjani" become minority in new "Greater Bosnia" which is now expanded east. Player can decide that it is a good move to play on Nemanjić heritage and officially change religion to Orthodox to make governing new state easier.

Same of these options should be open to Byzantines who in act of desperation also officially changed religion to Catholicism.

i like the idea, cause it would affect the game in many ways, and it would make some new diplomatics

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matko

well i agree that changing official religion in our mod should be a drastic move with possible big negative effects and not something a player can easily do whenever he feels to. so player must be really careful with this or he can ruin the state.

BUT if there are extreme circumstances player can choose to make that move. just like Tomašević tried because he felt that could save the kingdom.
One of main motive of this conversion in mod should be diplomatic - improvement of relation with Catholic factions (or Orthodox),
changing religion would help Bosnia to ally itself with Hungary, Austria or some other strong Catholic faction. this could be to protect itself from Ottomans or some other superpower, or to make a stable peace with Hungary if it proves to be to strong for Bosnia.
Other motive is also opportunistic. Lets say Bosnian player manages to military defeat Serbia and conquer the whole Serbian state. In this scenario "Krstjani" become minority in new "Greater Bosnia" which is now expanded east. Player can decide that it is a good move to play on Nemanjić heritage and officially change religion to Orthodox to make governing new state easier.

Same of these options should be open to Byzantines who in act of desperation also officially changed religion to Catholicism.

---

This and all of the other posts re the Tsardom's religion system above it sound great. If you implement these features it would really accurately represent what kinds of decisions a medieval ruler of these states would have to make. And after all, isn't that one of the main objectives in making a medieval strategy mod?

Good stuff guys!:thumbsup2

One question to all interested sides, by your oppinion was Bosnian church dogmatically orthodox or catholic or something third? I mean, does the existence of separate Bosnian church means the existence of some separate Bosnian religion? The term '' Bosnian '' could refer only to its area of jurisdiction and national allegiance, just like the terms '' Serbian '' or '' Bulgarian '' church refers to the spread of their jurisdiction over the Serbian and Bulgarian population but in fact they are both orthodox. For example at the coronation of tsar Dušan there where present the representatives of Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek churches but that doesn't mean that there were some separate Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek religion, in fact they were all same Orthodox christians.

It was a heretical church... But great part of population was orthodox and catholic...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clandestino

One question to all interested sides, by your oppinion was Bosnian church dogmatically orthodox or catholic or something third? I mean, does the existence of separate Bosnian church means the existence of some separate Bosnian religion? The term '' Bosnian '' could refer only to its area of jurisdiction and national allegiance, just like the terms '' Serbian '' or '' Bulgarian '' church refers to the spread of their jurisdiction over the Serbian and Bulgarian population but in fact they are both orthodox. For example at the coronation of tsar Dušan there where present the representatives of Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek churches but that doesn't mean that there were some separate Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek religion, in fact they were all same Orthodox christians.

---

The bosnian church had it's roots already during the reign of Kulin. (Around 1189) because a corespondention of 5 letters between Serbia, Hungaria and the Pope are preserved.

From those letters we can read:
1)That Serbian nobles are accusing Bosnia for being a heretic state. We can read the same from the side of the Hungarian king.

2)The Pope decided to do something about those accusitions and he sent high representatives to Bosnia. At the fielf of Bilino Polje the Bosnians had to convert themelves to catholicism and the ruler Kulin had to become a real catholic.

In the years after this event many more accusitions from especially Hungaria both also Serbia were made. May be a lot of those accusitions had just a political background (to justify an attack on Bosnia).

When the catholic church decided to remove its centre in this part of europe from Bosnia to another place outside of Bosnia, this "bosnian relligion" again appeared (many centuries after it oficially disapeared from the political map of Bosnia).

But now this church got institutionalised. They became a relligion of the nobles and the factor of cohesion. The bosnian church considered the catholic church a false relligion. But at the international scene the bosnian kings themselves were mostly catholics. So they played a double game: On the one hand they protected the bosnian chucrh and in the mean time they tried to radiate towards the world that bosnia was a "non heretic" state.

Quote:

---

The bosnian church had it's roots already during the reign of Kulin. (Around 1189) because a corespondention of 5 letters between Serbia, Hungaria and the Pope are preserved.

From those letters we can read:
1)That Serbian nobles are accusing Bosnia for being a heretic state. We can read the same from the side of the Hungarian king.

2)The Pope decided to do something about those accusitions and he sent high representatives to Bosnia. At the fielf of Bilino Polje the Bosnians had to convert themelves to catholicism and the ruler Kulin had to become a real catholic.

---

The term '' heretic '' was used very loosely in the middle ages, for example during the Great western schism in 1378-1414. as well as during other schisms in catholic churche opposing popes would call each other, as well as states, rulers and people under their jurisdiction, heretics and schismatics altough they were all catholics and didin't differ in religious sense. Simply, if someone didn't recognize this or that pope would be declared heretic and schismatic. Consequently anyone who didn't recognize authority of Roman pope could be declared as heretic. Similar things happened in Orthodox church as well, for example when tsar Dušan promoted Serbian archbishop to patriarch without consent of patriarch of Constantnople entire Serbian church was excommunicated by the constantinopolitan patriarch thus becoming '' heretical '' although in dogmatical sense nothing didn't change.
In the case of Bosnia we have church which doesn't recognize the authority of neither Rome nor some orthodox patriarchate thus being '' heretical '' for both of them. But that doesn't mean that religion wasn't Orthodox or catholic, in fact if I understand correctly Fine implies that Bosnian churhc was essentially catholic while some Serbia authors ( V. Glusac ) claim that it was orthodox.

Quote:

---

It was a heretical church... But great part of population was orthodox and catholic...

---

And what was heretical in it? I think it was soundly proved by now that Bosnian church wasn't bogumil or patharen, so what kind of heresy it was?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clandestino

And what was heretical in it? I think it was soundly proved by now that Bosnian church wasn't bogumil or patharen, so what kind of heresy it was?

---

It was heretical because it wasnt catholic or orthodox... The only option left is herecy...

This bosnian church makes quite an discussion :hmm:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clandestino

And what was heretical in it? I think it was soundly proved by now that Bosnian church wasn't bogumil or patharen, so what kind of heresy it was?

---

Yes I think also that it has been prooved that the Bosnian church wasn't a Bogomil chucrh. But it is a little bit silly to say that the Bosnian church was a "national church" just like the serbian church; but that in fact it was not a relligion at is own; not different from catholicism or orthodox christianity.

I agree with dr. Dubravko Lovrenovic. He said it like this:"The bosnian church was against the globalisation"

Because why would a Bosnian Djed call the catholic episkop (which was removed from Bosnia) "the false episkop" and himself the "true one"? "Pravi episkop crkve bosanske". It is possible that the Bosnian church had its roots somewhere in the catholic faith. We don't know it. We know only that the Bosnian ruler Kulin was accused for giving help to heretics from Dalmatia and that he was accused of not being a real catholic. Now; you are right when saying that this was very normal in that time. But was it really very normal to collect thousands christians and to let themselve declare as catholics at a field in the 12. century?

Are there any sources which call the orthodox christian faith in serbia the "serbian faith", for example? There are sources which call this faith of the bosnian faith "the bosnian faith". The form of christianity in serbia was orthodox and it was really not different from the Bulgarian one or the Greek one. as far as I know. And all those churches called themselves clearly orthodox. The bosnian church never called herself orthodox or catholic. Nor did the followers of this faith called themelves like that; which was normal in whole europe. The called themelves only as krstcans. But I do not know enough about it so I am not really competent to write a lot before I read something serious.

I know that the Bosnian church had it's own protectors and holly man, as far as I know. Like the Holly Grgur ; he was chosen for the protector of the Bosnian church. And the Bosnian kings, therefore, always represent themelves as the "slaves of god and the holy Grgur" ; because it was the bosnian church who gave hem the legitimite power within the context of medieval europe.

Quote:

---

Az rab Bozji i svetoga Grgure, a zovom gospodin Ban Tvrtko, po milosti Bozjoj gospodin mnogim Zemljam Bosanskim,gospodin Bosanski,i srbski,i solski,i podrinski i mnogim stranam Bosanskim....

---

This is one of the many intitulations of bosnian rulers. This is how they began their official letters. And this is how the defined themelves. And if we translate this to english than it would mean:

Quote:

---

I the Slave of God and the holly Grgur; and by name lord Ban Tvrtko, by god's will The ruler of many Bosnian lands: The lord of bosnia and of serbia and of Soli and podrinje and the ruler of many bosnian sides...

---

And then he continues for example I will translate it too because I find it interesting :D :

Quote:

---

Pravi gospodin Ban Tvrtko: kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

---

translation:

Quote:

---

The true lord Ban Tvrtko: When we were in an argument, Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And he protected our city of Bobovac from the Hungarians....

---

Quote:

---

I za tu sluzbu dasmo mu Cuklje u Lasve, i dasmo mu Klopc u Brode i dasmo mu Brlosnik na Uzore Vlsi. I hvala njinju, stavlajemo u vijeki amen. I s timi vasemi predasmo ga u vjeru djedinju i vse Crkve Bosanske.

---

And for that good action he made we gave to him Cukle near Lasva and Klopc near the city of Brod and we gave Brlosnik at the Usora river. And we are very thankfull to him and give him a lifelasting amen. And after that we converted him to tha faith of the Djed and of the whole Bosnian church...