That's interesting. I never thought it was possible. That will be useful for further stats adjustments :thumbsup2
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That's interesting. I never thought it was possible. That will be useful for further stats adjustments :thumbsup2
What? There are boni versus cav for every spearmen. Mostly +2 attack, for more professional/later units a bit more.
Yup, this line: mount_effect horse +2, camel +2
I guess that Dekhatres is referring to an finer adjustment depending on the spear type :hmm:
is this "mount_effect horse +2, camel +2" you mean ? i've looked more through and there's no any higher than +2, not even units like kievan palace guards have higher so which are those units that have it higher ?
+2 is too low anyway, i think the right number would be around 6-8, it can be higher than 2 right ? i guess i gota put them side by side and compare them to see which is better
Billmen and some elite halberds (they get as much as +6)
I think that if you increase them too high it will only give a bonus to the spearmen/pikemen units. I mean it might be too disadvantageous to the cavalry units.
the problem is that cavalry can charge into prepared infantry and get out without a scratch, the spear bonus simply makes frontal cav charges more costly if the infantry is ready for it
EDIT: from the edu info "spear & light_spear = The unit when braced has various protecting mechanisms versus cavalry charges from the front; spear_bonus_x = attack bonus against cavalry. x = 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12"
Dude.. you where one of the guys proposing the buff to cavalry and armor if I'm correct. What did you expect? Besides that, ofcourse it's not true that cavalry can get out "without a scratch". As soon as the spearmen attack, they get the buff. And professional spearmen which are ready are already pretty good in hurting cavalry in my opinion.
i have never said to buff cav, to be precise i actually proposed to buff only the armor and do that by taking points from defense skill, that way the total defense rating remains the same but the unit is more resilient to arrows which was the main issue in previous version
with the increase of overall defense rating cavalry units are once more excelent melee units because they have high melee damage AND defense
as for the spearman the problem is not as big as i thought, after some tests professional units like heavy spearman indeed hold very well against cavalry even on flat terrain, armored sergeants however much worse, they lose about 50-60 men after 1 charge and get destroyed by feudal knights in melee
the options at this point are either give a higher spear bonuses (up to 6-8) to professional spear units or completly curb the melee capabilities of cavalry by reducing their secondary weapon damage, i've personally been playing with cav that has only 1 melee damage (yep all cavalry has 1 melee dmg) for a while and i really like the results, cav dosent die fast but neither does it kill fast so they are only good with charge and that's the only way to make them do damage, and even with only 1 damage they still manage to get kills in melee
on another diferent topic
why are spear units still worse than other infantry ? i mean is the spear sooo bad as an infantry weapon ? why cant spearman attack value match that of swordsmen ? i've seen someone long time ago ask this too, he even said that spears would be better in infantry engagements because of the reach which would allow several soldiers to hit the same target at the same time
It depends first if you're talking about levies or professional units. Considering the lack of training and of good quality equipment, that's logical for levies. For professional units, I guess it would depend what kind of unit they're facing.
Haha no I'm fine with proposing changes, they just shouldn't be as radical. ;) Perhaps we can increase the range for spear attack damage to 1-5 and the bonus to 2-4? That should be enough or at least a good start I think.
I think it's worth mentioning that there's a lot of other factors than simply attack and defence values.
Animations and especially reach is a very important factor. For instance, that's why pikemen can be so strong, despite having a very low attack value: they have a long reach.
The same principle should be true to spearmen; they should have longer reach than a sword or axe, but once the sword/axe get close enough to be in the spearman's face, they have the advantage.
Given the game engine, I feel the higher attack value for sword/axes makes perfect sense, we just need to make sure the spearmen can have a longer reach.
I'm not sure how it already is in-game though, but given that we have pikemen, it must be a factor that can be tweaked somehow?
Interesting point about reach. I was admiring some Foot Knights of Jerusalem the other day, and their spears seem to be longer than many other units', such as Spear Militia for instance. So I'd be curious to find out if it's based on the model or a stat. Needless to say if it's the model, it's going to take a bit more work. :/
yes the exact changes i had in mind were +4 or +6 against horse for professional spear units and change "light_spear" to "spear", imo these arent radical changes, spear militias have +2 against horse and i think it's unfair to pro units to be as good as militias against cav
EDIT: reach is an excelent idea, how to change the reach btw ? which value do i need to change ? is it in the EDU ?
I might be wrong but could it relevant to the bounding sphere of the mesh model?
For the non-initiated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounding_sphere
or...
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
If it's the case, we have to edit all meshes with the tool from Zarathos as it seems that most of them are wrong (according to Zarathos - in bold in the spoiler).
Edit: I might be wrong but before to do that or modify these stats, it might be better to wait until I've implemented all animations (not only the missile units one). I think the way an unit can behave while fighting will also bring some changes.