Kosovo is Serbia

The question is: how would Russia react in such case? Russia can always support other Orthodox Slavs and criticise West as long as it doesn't directly concerns it. My views on which state is the best ally is based on how it treat it's citizens (and Russia have no tradition in such category). Also, I don't like the 'iron-fist' policy of Russia, both toward others and it's citzens. Russians even threatened Poland with nuclear attack!!!

Also, Russian influence (hate to say that ) is closely linked to organised crime and oligarchy. Look at Montegro. Maybe it's economy is growing fast and people are getting wealthier, but state belongs to Russian billionaire. He bought most important powerhouses of Montegro by corrupting government (and thus costs were ridicously small), and now Montegro is depended of him (forgot his name thought ) They have same problems on their own land, but Putin holds much of control.

The other arguments are:
a) Russia is weak
b) There would be no independent Poland under Russian influence
c) There's no such thing as Americanisation, but there's a long tradition of Russification
d) It would be high unlikely that Russia won't try anything mean in case of turning our policies' direction onto West again. That includes gas and oil blackmail and annexing parts of Poland.
e) pro-Russian policy would lead to loss of any influence in Baltic states, EU and Ukraine.
f) I see no advantages of being under Russian influence other than cheaper resources and safe border.
g) We have EU, which is much, much better EU, in contrary to Russia, offers serious profits and don't threatens states which don't want to join.


BTW what do you expected from those cowards, French?:hmmm: If it weren't us, they would surrender immediately

You're probably thinking Oleg Deripaska.... He has the monopoly on aluminum industry there - other than that I wouldn't say that his or the Russian influence in Mtn. is something special. Russian fat cats bought huge amounts of cheap (for their pocket) land on the riviera and they are big in hotel industry and maybe entertainment to a certain extent - but other than that, their roll in the country politically is minuscule.

Montenegro has a kind of mafia style regime - run by the ideologycal and physical offsprings of the Mtn. Communist Party. The state policy is aimed at virtual de-Serbization of the Mtn. population, vast majority of which is of undisputed Serbian descent. Main tactical missions in this strategem are the introduction of the so called "Montenegrin/Dioclean identity" - via latinization of languge and the introduction of the linguistically non-exsistant "Montenegrian language" + termination of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the institution that literally founded Montenegro as a state in the 19th century, and the establishment of the so called "Montenegrin Orthodox church" (both efforts are strongly supported by the local branch of the Catholic Church).

Needless to say that this srategy is relying heavily on methods of agressive cultural and political marginalization of the "Serbian element" - and it's main tools are heavy police brutality and media blocade on the Serbs (police and media exclusively run by the regime).

Now, are the Russians pressing official Podgorica to back down from this course - actually no. Not even official Belgade is doing much.

And if Russian influence was indeed something special - I should assume that the recognition of the KLA usurpation by Montenegro would be prevented from Moscow. But it wasn't

As for your other arguments, you wont mind if I go Q on Q

The other arguments are:
a) Russia is weak

:hmmm:

b) There would be no independent Poland under Russian influence

Most probably, but is there an independent Poland under NATO? Has anyone asked an average Polish citizen about the missile shield? Or about the recognition of "KLA puppet state"? Seems to me NATO is treating you only slightly better than the Soviets. Sure, living standard then and now is probably not even to be compared - but at least the Soviets showed some degree of respect and named their entire military empire by your capital city

c) There's no such thing as Americanisation, but there's a long tradition of Russification

Seeing how Poles are Catholic and experienced alot of cultural and religious pressure from Moscow trough history, I can understand where you're coming from - but believe me, that doesn't apply on the Balkans.

Here we have the opposite, the long tradition of agressive attempts of Latinization and Germanization and, yes Americanization. When Joseph Bross betrayed his master Joseph Stalin in 1948 - Yugoslavia gradually turned to the strange symbiosis of communist and western cultural model - exactly in attempt to further suppress the Serbian national identity, the greatest threat for Bross's anti-Russian policy. Starting from the 60's - the cultural order of the day was pop-music. The entertainment industry was state-sponsored (read: secret service sponsored). Yugoslavian R'n'R scene became something like a new religion in an atheist state and the children of highest state officials were bought guitars and were promoted to some sort of "messiahs of the Yugoslavian identity".

On another level, some random punks managed to emerge from the proletarian gutter and form a truly significant new wave scene in the early 80's ("Charlemagne the Acrobat", "Psycho-mod-o-pop" "Electric Orgasm" etc.), but that lasted only briefly - and it's funny and indicative how the fat-cats children from the new wave scene swiftly turned "Yugo-pop" ("Charlemagne's" upper-class "branch" (children of high ranking generals) formed a band - "EKV" while the punk "branch" (children of the commoners) remained faithfull to the rebellious noise).

Anyway, ever wondered how come that so many Serbs here are fluent in English? Intensive classes in school (Eng. given priority in education over other languages) and free circulation of western music and movies contributed alot.

d) It would be high unlikely that Russia won't try anything mean in case of turning our policies' direction onto West again. That includes gas and oil blackmail and annexing parts of Poland.

Well, you've "turned western" long ago if you ask me. At least your gov. has - again, the shield is a nasty move. As for oil and gas - I understand yr. not happy that North Stream is bypassing you, but then again, have you (meaning yr. gov.) ever tryed convincing Russia that you are the right partner for the pipeline? And as for the annexation, beware of the "Europe of regions" idea that is geting stronger and stronger in Bruxeles. Slask is a "region", Gdanjsk is a "region".

e) pro-Russian policy would lead to loss of any influence in Baltic states, EU and Ukraine.

Sounds logical. But I ask again, what is exactly your influence in EU and NATO? And, what are your goals in the Baltic and in Ukraine?

f) I see no advantages of being under Russian influence other than cheaper resources and safe border.

what other advantage do you need? resources on the planet are drying up - soon it will become the issue of wheather you get any rather than the price - not to mention the safe border (Slask? Gdansk? safe right now?).

g) We have EU, which is much, much better :original: EU, in contrary to Russia, offers serious profits and don't threatens states which don't want to join.

But it actually threatens states that wanna(!) join. Serbia is sliced up with the strong backing of the most influential players within the EU. Formally, Kosovo is not a condition for Serbian admission - but informally and for all practical purposes, consealed from the public by the pro-EU media, it is exactly the primary condition!

High ranking EU officials (O.Ren, Solana, D. Pack and others) are the loudest advocates of the "Republic Kosova".

And now we have the infamous EULEX mission in the province, that has allready began with preparations for forcefully assimilating the remaining Serbs into the KLA "state"

In conclusion - I understand that our two countries have different geostrategic positions and interests - but our two peoples have no grudge against each other. In fact, as I was able to read in the press and to hear from some of the Poles here, majority in Poland is strongly against the Tusk policy of recognizing NATO-KLA land taft. I sincerely hope that Warshaw reiterates from anti-Serbian policy in the close future. But in the meantime, I strongly advise, furthermore I beg you to - pressure your gov. to pull out the Polish police from the Kopaonik county. There is no need for them to die for the NATO's criminal cause against the Serbs, who are their Slavic brothers and who are legitimately fighting to liberate themselves and their country from NATO occupation.

Ok, if I don't quote something-then I agree with you.

You're probably thinking Oleg Deripaska.... He has the monopoly on aluminum industry there - other than that I wouldn't say that his or the Russian influence in Mtn. is something special.

AFAIK, he owns major powerhouses of Montegro. That's definetely big influence.

As for your other arguments, you wont mind if I go Q on Q

Absolutely no problem , I like civilised debates

:hmmm:

Yes. Russia is weak and poor, compared to West. If it weren't for oil and gas, they would have no power at all, except military.

Seeing how Poles are Catholic and experienced alot of cultural and religious pressure from Moscow trough history, I can understand where you're coming from - but believe me, that doesn't apply on the Balkans.

Certainly it doesn't-you've never been under Russia's rule, and there was some serious pressure from Germany, Italy and Ottomans instead.

Yugoslavia was for us, Poles, a dream.

Most probably, but is there an independent Poland under NATO?

Yes, it is. You may wonder, but we can always exit it without loss. We do no participate in NATO's actions which conflicts with our policies, and we cannot be forced to do anything beyond our interests.

Has anyone asked an average Polish citizen about the missile shield?

Actually, at the beginning Polish society was highly pro-american (and still is), but after Russia threatened us several times and previous prime min. failed at negotiations (basically, he wanted to let Americans get in for free, just as he did with invasion in Iraq, for which we gained nothing). Now proportions between shield supporters and others are equal.

Or about the recognition of "KLA puppet state"?

It was really a diffucult and hard decision, but we had to act in conflict to our hearts.

Seems to me NATO is treating you only slightly better than the Soviets.

Slightly? You know what we were for soviets? A sucuidal ally. Most of NATO nukes were aimed at Poland, and Soviet knew it. In event of conflict, we would be cannon fodder for Soviets. Average lenght of Polish soldier's life on the battlefield was estimated by Soviets as high as 6 minutes. I guess it wasn't good for us to be Soviet ally.

but at least the Soviets showed some degree of respect and named their entire military empire by your capital city

That was truly a shame. Especially that invasion on Prague.

We were nothing more than a puppet in hands of Soviets.

Well, you've "turned western" long ago if you ask me. At least your gov. has - again, the shield is a nasty move.

It's 20 years now Society turned western too

About shield:

It's not a problem, really. Take a look at this from our point of view- missle shield is a signal to Russia that we are no longer under it's influence, also it strenghtens alliance between USA and Poland. We are sovereign country, and as such, we can have our own politics, a fact which Russia seems to ignore. Russia still treats us like their vassal- that includes cutting gas when Russia wants to force something on us (happily they do it no longer ) skipping us in many debates and agreements etc. -baltic pipeline is a example. (our gov. was pro-russian then. Despite it was a bad government, it should be taken seriously by Russian.).

The missle shield doesn't directly endanger Russia (there are to few and too small missles) unless Putin wants to launch nuclear strike from Iran (that wouldn't work too, as there aren't enough missles to counter Russian nuclear arsenal). Russian government wants just to gain from USA as much as they can. They have no reasons to block it at all, expect formal lost of influence on polish lands. Also, such complains are act of hypocrisy from Russia's side, since they keep large part of their fleet, nuclear and missle arsenal in Kaliningrad Oblast, one of the most militarised regions in Europe at our borders.

As for oil and gas - I understand yr. not happy that North Stream is bypassing you, but then again, have you (meaning yr. gov.) ever tryed convincing Russia that you are the right partner for the pipeline?

On the other side, Russia had not even tried to negotiate with us. And it was pretty nasty move from their side. Resolution is simple, thought- we'll be connected to German pipeline, so if Russia wants to cut gas- it will cut off Germany

And as for the annexation, beware of the "Europe of regions" idea that is geting stronger and stronger in Bruxeles. Slask is a "region", Gdanjsk is a "region".

It's not a problem, really. Slask and Gdansk WILL reamin polish, mainly because vast majority of people there are polish. Germans have enough problems on their own to not even think about 'Drang nach Osten', also Germany, unlike Russia, obeys the rules and isn't interested in further expansion. Germany is aging, so I see no way for expansionism in closest 20 years. In such time, everything can change.

Even if some Germans will settle there, I see absolutely no problem. Moreover, we have long traditions of being multi-ethnic, tolerant state. And Germans would certainly contribute to our culture and economy.

Sounds logical. But I ask again, what is exactly your influence in EU and NATO? And, what are your goals in the Baltic and in Ukraine?

Our infuence in EU is enough. We do not complain. We've got what we want, and we're safe from eventual Russian expansion.
As for NATO: see above.

In Baltic: Enegetic safety. Independence of Baltic States, stopping Russia.
Also, creating safety-belt between us and Russia. Also, there are economical reasons. Wealthier our partners are, the wealthier we can become
Same aplies to Ukraine. We don't want another Belarus at our borders. No more of that! Also, there is large polish population in this states, and some greatest monuments of polish culture (Lwow). Again, it's analogical to Kosovo.

And somewhere in the corners of our minds, there is a dream about a Commonwealth of Nations

what other advantage do you need? resources on the planet are drying up - soon it will become the issue of wheather you get any rather than the price - not to mention the safe border (Slask? Gdansk? safe right now?).

Gdansk is near Kaliningrad, so it's the more endangered than Slask. About german revisionism/expansionism- see above
About resources: we're optimistic. There still are enormous oil reserves in Canada. We've got milions tons of coal. We'll probaly invest in alternative power sources, and there are plans for building nuclear powerhouses. Also, there's small chance that till then someone will invent cold fusion
And it's Russia which has to be afraid of West. We can run on our oil and gas reserves until their economy will collapse.

But it actually threatens states that wanna(!) join. Serbia is sliced up with the strong backing of the most influential players within the EU. Formally, Kosovo is not a condition for Serbian admission - but informally and for all practical purposes, consealed from the public by the pro-EU media, it is exactly the primary condition!

High ranking EU officials (O.Ren, Solana, D. Pack and others) are the loudest advocates of the "Republic Kosova".

And now we have the infamous EULEX mission in the province, that has allready began with preparations for forcefully assimilating the remaining Serbs into the KLA "state"

In conclusion - I understand that our two countries have different geostrategic positions and interests - but our two peoples have no grudge against each other. In fact, as I was able to read in the press and to hear from some of the Poles here, majority in Poland is strongly against the Tusk policy of recognizing NATO-KLA land taft. I sincerely hope that Warshaw reiterates from anti-Serbian policy in the close future. But in the meantime, I strongly advise, furthermore I beg you to - pressure your gov. to pull out the Polish police from the Kopaonik county. There is no need for them to die for the NATO's criminal cause against the Serbs, who are their Slavic brothers and who are legitimately fighting to liberate themselves and their country from NATO occupation.

It's not really easy for us, believe me. For both Poland and Europe. In West, you've got opinion of troublesome and dangerous nation, with a clear sentiment for Russia and ambitions of being local power. Events of Yugoslavia's partition overshadows you.

On the other way, we aren't certain who is right in this conflict. You must agree that Yugoslavia was an artifical, unnatural state. Many of us think that it's fragmentation should be complete and ultimate.

Also, considering there was a possibility that Serbia will turn onto nationalistic and pro-russian direction, it's wasn't really clear what to do. To weaken it, in case of losing it, or support. It would be much easier if Serbian elections happened before all that noise.

For me, all that Serbia sacrificed is more than enough. You should be given chance.
I'll support Serbia in any other case, hovewer, in this case I'm not completly sure who has the moral advantage and what's the solution of this undoubtely difficult problem. I'm sorry.

Tusk is not anti-Serbian. He just recognised it better both for Serbia and Poland. I can't blame him for making decison so hard that I wish I would never make.

visit the Political Academy and say no to the illegal independence of Kosovo.

Organ Harvesting Zombies wish ya all happy new year:

glassrbije.org - Kosovska Mitrovica: Young Serb stabbed, Serbs ...

Violence, Explosions Shake Kosovska Mitrovica Overnight: Violence ...

Коначно Шиптари престали са нападима у Митровици.

If Kosovo was a nation of SERBS breaking away from SERBIA, then I would be all for it, being the Balkanization Libertarian that I am. However, it's nothing but land theft and terrorism, and that is not worth any support.

welcome all new members

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...74#post4280674

Za sve Srpske clanove foruma, upravo sam se zaprepastio procitavski vest da je Milorad Dodik-
"Предсједник Владе Републике Српске (РС) Милорад Додик упутио је писмо подршке израелском предсједнику Симону Перезу, у којем изражава разумијевање за тешку позицију у којој се налази Израел и његови грађани.

Премијер РС је изражава пуну подршку настојањима да се осигура безбједност и мир народу Израела.

У писму подршке, које је премијер Додик упутио јуче предсједнику Израела, наглашава се да РС не подржава антиизраелске демонстрације и скупове организоване у другом дијелу БиХ, односно у Федерацији БиХ.

Премијер Додик истовремено изражава увјерење и надање да ће ускоро бити пронађено дугорочно мирно рјешење за сукоб у којем се Израел налази, наводи се у саопштењу Бироа Владе РС за односе са јавношћу."

Kakva blago receno Bosanksa bukvetina!!!! Ovo bi trebalo uci u anale Srpskih diplomatskih bolidarija u zadnjih 20 godina
PS. Upravo zahvaljujuci lobiranju Arapskih zemalja(najviše Egipta, zatim Palestine,Sirije, Libije, Alzira itd ) zemlje Isamske konferencije nisu kolektivnio priznale Kosovo .Takodje, bombardovanje Srbije nije podrzala NI JEDNA arapska zemlja osim US satelita S Arabije i Emirata...kakve će koristi imati RS ili Srbija zbog ove izjave, nasuprot ocigledne stete??!! Kao Jevreji će podržavti ,Srbiju/RS??!!! Ko...možda Holbrook, Olbrajt, Klark itd i ostala nama dobro poznata Jeverjska ekipa??!!!.Ili evo Hilarin jeverjski lobi koji stoji iza nje politcki i iza hajke na onog decka Miladina Kovacevica...kakav BOOOLIIID!!!!!!!!!

this is totally new to me, can you link me to this statement?

btw. I honestly have little sympathy for any of the sides in that conflict - I respect the Jewish zeal in restoring their ancient homeland, we Serbs have a lot to learn from them - but it is also very clear to me that the state of Israel is treating the people of Palestine only slightly better than Hitler treated them in WW2. I sympathize with Palestinians with that respect, than again, many Palestinians volunteered to fight against the Serbs in Bosnia - so I wouldn't go out my way to support them...

As for the Arab league supporting Serbia on Kosovo - they do it out of fear for their own disputed regions, so it's a cleaver move that does right by them as much as it does right by Serbia, so I'm not that impressed.....

It's the same with Israel vs. Iran - Israel recognized KLA "state", Iran didn't (as far as I know) - but then again, Iran partially sponsored the KLA, and still does - and has sponsored the Bosnian mujaheddin movement, and still does (via few "humanitarian" and "religious" "NGO's") - then again, Iran is backed by Russia......

My personal policy towards the middle east can be best expressed by paraphrasing that old Arab saying "from MTW": "while my enemies are fighting each other - I can afford some time to "relax my bow"" (not too much of it though)

EDIT: just checked: Iran did recognize the "KLAland", naturally

And as for Dodik's support to Israel - why the hell not? Republika Srpska is very much conducting her international affairs in a manner of a sovereign state - and Dodik is much more capable than the current leadership of Republic of Serbia altogether - so if he decides that he can do right by Republika Srpska by supporting Israel, I say he probably knows what he's doing.... after all, to a much larger extent than in case of Belgrade, Republika Srpska and Israel share the same enemy.....

Then again, I don't think that Dodik can make any move without consulting Moscow first, so from that perspective, it's slightly odd that he was allowed to make such a statement :hmmm:

Ovaj put se veeeeoma razmimoliazimo po pitanju. Nisi mi objasnio koristi ovakvog poteza , osim ununtar politickih sitnih poena kao "tvrdi" nanacionalista protiv "muslimancina" sirom sveta (koji je btv tako tvrd galameci usput pratkicno potpuno razgradio RS). Jevreji ce sad krenuti da nas naprasno podrzavaju? Hilari i njena ekipa mozda?!! Mozda je i bio tu i tamo neki Palestinac dobrovoljac (to su bili Saudijci, Pakeri, i iz Jemena kolko znam, sve US sateliti) ali to ne menja generalno prijateljski odnos koji su Arapske zemlje imale prema nama i to od raspadada SFRJ, rata u Bosni pa do Kosova. Mozda i te zemlje treba da promene stav zbog izliva srece po ovom pitanju iditoa po nasim forumima?! I benefit svega toga je da...sta i 20-30 Arpapskih zemalja kaze ma goni ih u tri lepe...kolko za meseca dana 60-70 zemalja islamske konferecnije priznace Kosovo.
I kakvo ti je to opravdanje - pa oni to rade iz ne znam nekih sebicnih razloga! Ma svi to rade nesto u zivotu iz sebicnih razloga...ebe mi se zasto i kako..treba da im kopam po dusi da vidim da li je dovoljno cisto i da li proslo kod Sv Petra?! Ebote pa kad sam sa ribom, sta ima da joj radim psihoanalizu da li je sa mnom iz najcistijtih moralno ljubavnih pobuda...i da je propitujem da mi prica eseje zasto me voli itd? Ma ko to radi cak i u tome a kamoli u medjudrzavnim odosima?!
PS. I write on Serbian because it is Serbian internal politics, hard to understand for non Serbs anyway

The way I see it, this is what hapened: Muslim minority in Republika Srpska staged simultaneous pro-Palestinian protests (flashing pro Al-Quaeda banners and such) and then Dodik hurried up to counter-react with a pro-Israeli statement... I do not see why any country from the Arab league should change her opinion on Serbian sovereignty 'cause of a statement of the official of another country (Republika Srpska)....

Once again, I do not consider neither Israel or the Arab League as friends of Serbs and Serbia - everybody has their own interests, Israel is a US satellite so it naturally recognized the NATO usurpation in Serbia - Arab League members fear the Kosovo precedent can be used against them, so they refuse to follow suit, for now.... Dodik's statement will change nothing there....

Middle East is full of paradoxes, it's a mess, and I hope it remains a mess so that USA could get deeper and deeper into that mudpit and suffer as much damage as possible....

Nothing is black and white in politics: Russia strongly backs Iran - Iran strongly backs KLA usurpers in Kosovo; Should Serbia sever diplomatic ties with Russia because of that?

One more thing, Serbian internal politics is not so hard to understand at all and I do not see why we shoulden't discuss it here in English....
Just take as an example the first semi-occupied banana republic from history that comes to mind and there you have it - no big mistery. I'm not happy about it but I see no point in avoiding open discussion about it either....

"Arab League members fear the Kosovo precedent can be used against them"

Where? Egypt, Libya etc...I do not see any separatist movements (or even theoretical one) in those countries. Actually, they can use this in their favor, questioning Israel borders and even its existence

"Nothing is black and white in politics..."

Of course it is not black and white, nothing in life is black and white, so why is commonly known fact as Earth is round relevant for this discussion? Just as I previously questioned ur love argument in my Serbian text – "they are not doing that because they REALLY love us"...I do not want o repeat again...Actually I do not care, even in personal life u can not be sure if girl REALLY love you as pure as angel…or is there some interests behind (emotional, sexual, status, material whatever)

"Iran strongly backs KLA usurpers in Kosovo"

Back? As far as I know they don’t. Actually opposite, Serbia was strongly criticized by EU just 10-15 days ago; because we did not supported EU backed resolution against Iran violation of human rights – because Iran backed Serbia in Kosovo issue.

And most importantly u still has not answered what is the good side of this Dodik’s moronic "diplomatic" move (except internal one in Bosnia as big, macho, loud mouth "great" Serb "nationalist". Jewish US lobby will not suddenly start to support Serbia (especially now with Hilary and Holbrook in charge) while there is good possibility that Arab league will turn back to us.

Pozdrav svima, evo konacno su mi vratili moc da postujem u social groups. Kako ste svi i sto se radi. Vidim da nam je grupa dobila skoro 100 ljudi. Super!!!

My mistake, Iran din not recognize.

Other than that, I don't know what Dodik thought he would gain, and I don't care - he's a premier of Republika Srpska, not Serbia, neither the US democrats will start liking the Serbs, nor the Arab League countries would start disliking us because of that.....

If some Arab League members recognize, it will be out of their own interest, not because of a statement by the premier of Republika Srpska I should think....

P.S.

welcome back Noble Lord

Thanks, great to be back ;-)
Arab league members have more to gain by not recognizing the terrorist "state" of Kosovo.
As for Dodik offering support to Israel, well there is the clear contradiction of the vital Serbian foreign policy interests. it will have to be resolved very soon, because it cannot go on like this.