The Knights Hospitaller

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  1. Templar Hospitaller
    Templar Hospitaller
    I like your ideas. I say all of them.
  2. HMD Temeraire
    HMD Temeraire
    Yea I agree with all of those too but right now we need more members before we move into something big. (same situation for us templars).
  3. Swagger
    Swagger
    guess who's joined?
  4. miniwally
    miniwally
    What's the difference between this and other one?
  5. PubliusKhannus
    PubliusKhannus
    google the hospitallers and google templars. see for yourself my friend
  6. miniwally
    miniwally
    Yeh but how are we going to do that stuff?
  7. PubliusKhannus
    PubliusKhannus
    i apologize miniwally, patience was worn thin earlier in the day.
  8. miniwally
    miniwally
    not bothered tbh you responded at least
  9. HMD Temeraire
    HMD Temeraire
    @ Thomas
    Just want to get you some info straight about the templars, First of all although the Hospitallers were around before the templars they WERE NOT the first order to protect pilgrims, the Templars were, they at first were only medics but followed the templars example and added the function of being a military order soon after the templars were formed.

    Also the Hospitallers were at time as equally aggressive as the templars. For example it was the Hospitallers who started the unauthorized charge at the battle of Arsuf. I don't know where you got the info on the hospitallers being defenders while the templars were attackers, in all the books I have read the templars and hospitallers were both always in the thick of it, usually on opposite flanks while in the field and when defending they usually were both within the fortifications and only sallied out when reinforcements arrive to back them up.

    I think that probably your partly mistaken facts are based of the conduct of the templars around the battle of Hattin. I say partly mistaken because under the leadership of Gerard de Ridfort the templars behaved how you described, and frankly behaved very stupidly. This soon corrected itself after Ridfort's capture and execution.

    Also the other major Templar contributions in addition to the banks were all the churches and castles they built through Europe. The Hospitallers on the other hand preformed their main service to Europe long after the crusades were over, when they despite all odds held off a ottoman force much larger than their own at the battle of malta, and saved much of Europe from muslim domination.

    Just wanted to get your facts straight.
  10. Monarchist
    Monarchist
    It is obvious you truly did your research TC, and I thank you for setting me straight. ! I will definitely be much more informed once my Hospitaller books start to come in. Admitting that I know less than others can be hard, as I am proud of my knowledge of history... but here, I am a newcomer and must acknowledge my subordination to you.

    May I ask you where you got all this wonderful information about tactics, strategies, and actual battlefield uses of the Templar and Hospitallers? Unfortunately, I cannot find many books on the subject around here, because the Crusades aren't exactly popular in this area! Do you recommend any books in particular for this eager newbie?
  11. jml322
    jml322
    Here is a cool picture that I think I will try to create a model of for M2TW Kindoms...

    JML322
  12. Monarchist
    Monarchist
    jml322: That is really an excellent idea! The textures and surcoat of the battle garb of the Hospitallers would look perfect in Medieval 2's world. Just imagine THAT (image) charging at full speed into a group of charging fanatics!

    miniwally: In answer to your question "how are we going to do that stuff?", I point you to Templar Crusader's post The point of this forum is to be patient at first, wait for new members to come in, and most importantly share any info on the Hospitallers you may learn, so that we can discuss it. This isn't about radical social change in one afternoon, but just calmly talking about history, a thing we all love (hopefully).

    The love of history and of Christian values (you don't have to be a fanatical Christian to appreciate charity, mercy, and goodly actions) will enable us, a small but faithful and loyal band, to grow and perhaps have discussions on the forums about various moral and ethical things, while (calmly) arguing about good and evil, or the role of the Crusades and the Hospitallers in history. Most importantly, though, is learning and sharing our knowledge here, as a community of like, but individual and respectful minds. This is how I see it, and Templar Crusader might disagree as to the purpose... but we shall find our way slowly and surely.

    Templar Crusader: To explain my rash description, I think I should point to History Channel television documentaries . I have a very active mind when it comes to the imagination, and many documentaries and books tend to sensationalize the Templar, while de-emphasizing or ignoring the Hospitallers. Thus, I saw the Hospitallers as the "humble" (defensive) ones, and the Templar as the "arrogant" (offensive, action-minded) ones. This view is tangibly wrong, and I realize this only after your polite correction. This is the sort of calm discussion is the type I hope to have in the Hospitaller (and Templar) social groups. Learning, and dissemination of knowledge, are paramount at first, so we may become experts and help others learn of the good works of Christianity, or at least of these Orders. We all make mistakes of psychology and assumption, but learning from these sudden flashes of "I must show how smart I am!" and dedicating yourself to fact is more important than admitting you were wrong.
  13. HMD Temeraire
    HMD Temeraire
    @ Thomas, I completely agree with your opinion below (3rd paragraph). You are one of the few people who I belive truly understands the crusades and the purpose of the knightly orders.

    What kind of learning sources are you looking for about the Crusades/Knightly Orders? Books (Historical Fiction, Nonfiction, Documentaries.)

    I am glad you know have your facts straight.
  14. Monarchist
    Monarchist
    Thank for you for grand compliment - I am not worthy of such respectful praise, sir! All I know is that I want to learn and understand all things in this beautiful life we are given, and moving expressions of approval such as that can only humble me in my search, and drive me forward evermore.

    I have always been a sucker for very long and "dry" academic books or articles on history. Since this subject fascinates me, and more importantly inspires a great religious conviction in me, it is something I could read about for hours. Documentaries are good for when I feel lazy , but long texts are my favorite. I often privately compare myself to the monastics of the 12th century, copying down elaborate texts for endless hours, except it is all stored in my head. There is something about very fluid, well-written texts that allows me to tap into that so-called 'third eye', and imagine I am right there, nearly one thousand years ago. A good text on the Hospitallers may inspire in my mind an image of the utmost glory - standing atop the ramparts of the Krak des Chevaliers, casting my loving eye across all of the sun-drenched land before me.

    The simplest of words, without pictures to distract me, are all that I really want. If you would like to help me in specific with your books/articles/studies, and the history community in general, I really do hope you'll visit my "Hospitaller Research Thread" at Vestigia Vetustatis.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=250786

    I hope my language is not too grand and pompous , but my intense love for life and all of God's glorious Earth is too great not to express.
  15. helmersen
    helmersen
    Very nice picture, jml
  16. HMD Temeraire
    HMD Temeraire
    I agree, that is really cool. Was that hard for you to make?
  17. Templar Hospitaller
    Templar Hospitaller
    I think one of the biggest reasons for the Templars not surviving and the Hospitallers surviving (Other than King Phillip the Fairly Ugly) is that the Hospitallers had their hospitals to fall back on, while the Templars only had the military aspect. What do you guys think?
  18. Monarchist
    Monarchist
    I hate to distract from JML's explanation of his excellent model, but I wanted to ask:

    I know that there are already many, many Geocities and Yahoo! pages dedicated to the Hospitallers, but I'd love our own unique page. I am speaking of a "directory" for all newcomers, historical researchers, and people interested in the Order; one with hundreds of books, articles, novels, movies, and documentaries involving Hospitallers! If you like this idea, I can make a freewebs page or something of the sort, and give it a nice background with our Colors, as well as an explanation and various books/links pages.

    It would be a good way to recruit for our Order, and drum up interest for the true "Soverign Military Hospitaller Order". Maybe we could even convince some people to volunteer for the modern St. John Order . Does this seem like a good idea?
  19. Monarchist
    Monarchist
    Templar Hospitaller, I believe you are right! Philip the Fairly Ugly () of France couldn't have done all the damage he did to the Templar if he had tried in 1287, and not 1307, to get his "revenge". They still had Acre, as you know, before 1291, and thus still had a reason to exist, in the eyes of monarchs and popes. I think that once they lost the very last stronghold left in the Holy Land, the greedy king realized (in his arrogance!) there was no reason for them to go on. They certainly couldn't fight Christians, nor could they retake the Holy Land.

    It makes me very sad! Silly Kings
  20. HMD Temeraire
    HMD Temeraire
    Yea, Once the crusades were lost the templars had no reason to exist. However if they had not been WRONGLY persecuted by Philip the Fairly Ugly I believe they would have adopted what the hospitallers did and became Christian mariners that harassed and prayed on muslim shipping.
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