Evolution and Creationism

[ZaPPPa]

Breeding is an equivalent of micro-evolution biologically. Nothing in the paragraph you quoted opposes this. And micro-evolution over a long time = macro-evolution... That is why I wrote the part about humans having intensively bred dogs for only 500 years which is why we have not been able to breed completely new species yet.

A breeder will pick the offspring with the best traits and rebreed them. In fish breeding for example most often the sub-par fish will be killed as to not mess up the line. Those poor fish, who may be physically stronger than their more colorfull siblings (ironically), don't really survive now do they?.. Isn't this just another form of 'survivel of the fittest'? The only difference between breeding and natural selection is the reason why a certain mutation has a higher chance of survival. That deep red mutant fish may be easy to spot for a predator in the wild and thus have a low natural chance of survival (less fit), but that same fish will be worth a lot of money for a breeder and thus have a high unnatural chance of survival (more fit)(*). Breeding is forced micro-evolution with unnatural selection. Keep up micro-evolving with unnatural selection long enough and humans will have macro-evolved a new species. (It may take a few thousand years, but nature had billions). Evolution does not strictly apply to the wild. The word 'fittest' in 'survival of the fittest' can mean many things.

Micro and macro evolution are linked by time. I fully understand that religious people would rather forget about micro-evolution as that is not vague but quite easy to comprehend and prove. I understand you would rather like to discuss the origin of life because that is still a very complex and vague topic. That is exactly how the church has worked for hundreds of years.. Keeping things complex and vague so then they can use the all-covering and simple answer: God did it!

(*)PS. Before you start disagreeing with this example: I made this and easy to understand example. I can think up numerous example of how a certain mutation will be benificial both in the wild and for the breeder, so do not try to argue the fact that in this example the fish is less fit in the wild and more fit for the breeder as proof that breeding is not evolution.

PS. There are documented cases of scientist being able to breed completely new species:
Creation of a new species observed
No, it they did not manage to create a two trunked elephant by mating a rat with a goldfish, but it's the principle that's important.

God created the world within a week. Planted ancient fossils to throw off us humans that think we're smart and clever to try and disprove him. God has spoken to, and continues to speak to many influential leaders around the world, like President Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Pat Robertson, David Hasselhof (drunk in a McDonald's drive-thru). God doesnt speak to us "normal" folks, we're not worth his time. If you dont believe in creationism, nor Jesus, nor god, the ratpure will most deffinetly not be comming for you.

[al306849]

Originally posted by Wrenus@Oct 29 2004, 09:43 AM
God created the world within a week. Planted ancient fossils to throw off us humans that think we're smart and clever to try and disprove him.

:devil good one

[aves]

You are right Zappa, it is the principle that is important... excellent example of intelligent design.

Your lab example is evidence for creation: there is no natural process that allows grafting or hybrids, but with intelligent design and unnatural manipulation a new species is created.... let me slow it down... intelligent.... creation... that yeast cell doesn't "prove" evolution, its just a sample case of creation... Thank-you :

Mutant red fish is still the same species... no evidence has ever been shown by any scientists in the history of human existance of a new species appearing while humans have walked the earth... all the "examples" happened "way long ago". But no modern example exists of a new species... new breed, yes, new species no. A 7' tall, thin African man and a 5' tall fat European woman might have extremely different DNA, physical features, weakness to diseases (sickle cell), and if their skeletons were displayed they could be used as "evidence" of two different species, but they are not.

Your eventual micro to macro is theory (which means it has not been proven)

And wrenus, to make fun or make light is what frustrated children do to either make themselves feel better or replace a logical and well thought arguement.

Creationism is a farse. Sorry, it has been proven wrong. As for evolution, there is still much more to learn about it. The complicities of how we and other organisms have evolved over the eons. Recently discovered "hobbit" humans for example.

[ZaPPPa]

Originally posted by aves@Oct 29 2004, 10:43 AM
Your lab example is evidence for creation: there is no natural process that allows grafting or hybrids, but with intelligent design and unnatural manipulation a new species is created.... let me slow it down... intelligent.... creation... that yeast cell doesn't "prove" evolution, its just a sample case of creation... Thank-you :

Humans did it, not God.. Does this mean those scientists are Gods now? Thank you, you have just wrecked creationalism and made us Gods... Game over.

The chance of a new species originating is very hard to determine because you have to see them try and mate with their ancestors and failing.. That requires scientific research and a lot of luck because no, new species are not formed every day. Yet again you are bound to your very limited timespan. You sound like Bush.. just repeat what you say and keep failing to grasp the bigger picture.

To use this as proof that evolution does not exist is.... not very wise in your case... Your argument is: "You can't see it, so it does not exist..."

Guess what: I can't see God.

[Falworth]

Originally posted by ZaPPPa+Oct 27 2004, 05:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td> (ZaPPPa @ Oct 27 2004, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-www.freerepublic.com@Oct 26 2004, 10:39 PM

1)They used comparative dating, but they want to call it absolute.

2) I've mentioned it before, but the probability that a protein containing 100 amino acids spontaneously forms as one in 10^65.  Random combos, almost all of which help nada with construction of living things. 

3) No transitional species showing evolution in progress between 2 species of evolution has ever been found.

[/b][/quote]
Item 3 is WRONG.... The whole linage of the whale, from land walking to final ocean swimming creature has been found and I believe on display at some museum. I will try to find where it's at and post it.

Originally posted by ZaPPPa@Oct 29 2004, 11:22 AM
To use this as proof that evolution does not exist is.... not very wise in your case... Your argument is: "You can't see it, so it does not exist..."

Guess what: I can't see God.

Neither can I. If you see him though, could you ask him why he's punishing me and others with Pat Robertson. kthxbye

Aves, you can act like an all knowing scholar and play spindoctor with creationism... claiming it does indeed exhist. But sadly your "knowledge" is based on fairy tails and holds no water against science, or reality.

[Falworth]

Originally posted by aves@Oct 29 2004, 10:43 AM
But no modern example exists of a new species... new breed, yes, new species no. A 7' tall, thin African man and a 5' tall fat European woman might have extremely different DNA, physical features, weakness to diseases (sickle cell), and if their skeletons were displayed they could be used as "evidence" of two different species, but they are not.

Your eventual micro to macro is theory (which means it has not been proven)

And wrenus, to make fun or make light is what frustrated children do to either make themselves feel better or replace a logical and well thought arguement.

Doesn't have to be an example of any NEW species.... Because plenty of others exist.. Neanderthral species were not directly related to us and they existed a mear 1000 generations ago. 3 species of human, not related directly shared the earth 50K years ago, but branched off from the same ancestor.

Opps,, sorry,, there are new species.. birds that evolved in the hawaiaan islands. Some of the birds are new species, evolved from lines that still exist on the American continent, and now are a species all their own.

Don't know where your getting the idea that no new species have come into existance.. All you have to do is read the scientific journels..

There is absolutely no evidence of any intelligent design. Just assumptions to some, because things look complicated in their viewpoint. All mamals are related, they all share the same things, 4 legs, 5 toes, 2 eyes.

[aves]

Originally posted by ZaPPPa@Oct 29 2004, 11:22 AM
Humans did it, not God.. Does this mean those scientists are Gods now? Thank you, you have just wrecked creationalism and made us Gods... Game over.

Evolution = natural process in which new species are formed across time

Creation = intelligent design of species

So to take yeast and in a lab, guided by intelligence and design, create a new species is a model of creation. These yeast did not create a new species through any natural process, but were manipulated through a completely unnatural process.

Things like this declaration of "game over" are just childish and lame. If this turns back to the direction of a debate, I'll return, until then I'll just lurk... C-U all later :

Evolution = natural process in which new species are formed across time

Creation = intelligent design of species

Intelligent Design is something they came up with to combat evolution. To somehow keep creationism valid. Inteligent Design was not in the Bible or other biblical doctorene of other religions, so I equate it to more rubberish religious lemmings like to spew. Its incredibly entertaining to read though. I doubt I could make up such creative fantasy BS while stoned.

So to take yeast and in a lab, guided by intelligence and design, create a new species is a model of creation. These yeast did not create a new species through any natural process, but were manipulated through a completely unnatural process.

I strongly suggest you take college chemistry. And if you have, I suggest you retake it and pay attention this time.

[Falworth]

Originally posted by aves@Oct 29 2004, 11:47 AM
Evolution = natural process in which new species are formed across time

Creation = intelligent design of species

So to take yeast and in a lab, guided by intelligence and design, create a new species is a model of creation. These yeast did not create a new species through any natural process, but were manipulated through a completely unnatural process.

Things like this declaration of "game over" are just childish and lame. If this turns back to the direction of a debate, I'll return, until then I'll just lurk... C-U all later :

Since humans are a natural part of nature, any evolution or creation of new species by us is just as natural as any other natural way for something to evolve.

Creationalism on the other had has stated that everything exists has been created by a "god" thing and no new species has ever been created by evolution or anyway else. Well, that is plainly wrong.. Cause like some birds in hawaii, new species are always coming into existance from other species.

Getting on to the big picture: All disciplines of science use evolution.... Geology (where to find oil fields due to evolution). There would be no biology without evolution, or physics or any other science.... Particle Physics--evolution is required for that. Evolution isn't just pertaining to living things, it pertains to everything in this natural world..
And what is Evolution.... Simply means CHANGE...... Things change... Except for the creationists,, to them things are the same as god made it,, no change.. Nope.... dumb idea, I know of nothing that does not change.

[ZaPPPa]

Originally posted by aves@Oct 29 2004, 11:47 AM
Evolution = natural process in which new species are formed across time

Wrong. There's a difference between creating something out of nothing (=creationalism) and forced evolution (=evolutionalism). The biological principles are of natural and unnatural selection are the same. Mutations have been proven millions of times (cancer for example). Mutations are the basis for evolution that is a widely accepted fact.

PS. Aves: let me slow it down... intelligent.... creation..." = childish

[wilpuri]

Originally posted by ZaPPPa@Oct 29 2004, 08:04 PM
Wrong. There's a difference between creating something out of nothing (=creationalism) and forced evolution (=evolutionalism). The biological principles are of natural and unnatural selection are the same. Mutations have been proven millions of times (cancer for example). Mutations are the basis for evolution that is a widely accepted fact.

PS. Aves: let me slow it down... intelligent.... creation..." = childish

I had never met/talked to anyone in my life, who did not believe that evolution was true, and that is has happened and that it is still happening, before I came to these forums. :smile

So I always have a hard time reading creationist BS without cracking up.

Originally posted by wilpuri@Oct 29 2004, 12:19 PM
I had never met/talked to anyone in my life, who did not believe that evolution was true, and that is has happened and that it is still happening, before I came to these forums. :smile

So I always have a hard time reading creationist BS without cracking up.

I live in the dirty uneduacated south. Also known as the bible belt, pro-life and pro-republican dominated states in the US. I had no idea what the "Rapture" ment until moving here. The rapture, where god suddenly decides to take all true believers to heaven, right where they stand, are sitting, etc. People just vanish, and non-believers continue on as if the true believers never exhisted. People driving around with bumper stickers that say: In case this vehicle is unoccupied while in motion, fear not for its the Rapture. And other variations of religious literature.

Whats great is that a week ago, I saw someone with a bumper sticker that said: In case of the Rapture, can I have your car?

[Portuguese Rebel]

Whats great is that a week ago, I saw someone with a bumper sticker that said: In case of the Rapture, can I have your car?

:devil

Now about "inteligent" design... the designer must be really stupid... all his designs tend to get extinct... pretty incompetent if you ask me...

2) I've mentioned it before, but the probability that a protein containing 100 amino acids spontaneously forms as one in 10^65. Random combos, almost all of which help nada with construction of living things.

Since when do proteins form at random? There are chemical events with 100% chance of happening... What is random about that? Random should be used properly.

And more, the chance of you getting X protein with Y aminoacid mix is small, the chance you get a (indetermined protein) is 100%. Likewise, the probability of something remotly resembling humans evolve on this planet is almost zero. The chance of something alive evolve is a lot higher.

I had never met/talked to anyone in my life, who did not believe that evolution was true, and that is has happened and that it is still happening, before I came to these forums. on_7.gif

So I always have a hard time reading creationist BS without cracking up.

Welcome to a vision of failed science education... Do not do this at home... :p

[lawngnome]

Okay, so I am Christian... does this mean I'm stupid? I just listen to what mommy says and follow suit? I attended sunday school and made little drawings of how beautiful God is, right? I am uneducated and just believe what I'm told, right?


Unfortunately none of that is true. I became a Christian at the age of 27... after more life experience than most of you have yet. I wouldn't call myself stupid, either... I managed a high 3. something (long time ago) in high school and graduated top 15 out of 200... unfortunately my family was very poor, so I couldn't go to college... I was a manager at a restaurant for a year, and then joined the Army...

Let me tell you something... ever since I have become a Christian my life has been so much better... I lost that horrible pessimistic attitude so many of you are plagued by... and it really has helped me get through life so much easier... life is just fun now, and I look forward to paradise some day... what do atheists look forward to? just curious?

Can I prove God exists? No. Can you prove we all evolved from single-celled organisms? No. That is why evolution is still referred to as a "theory".

How could human intelligence have come from.... nothing? Doesn't it make MORE sense to say that someone bestowed that knowledge unto us?

And Christianity is the only religion with a factual event proving its existance. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.... ever read the Bible? The greatest book ever written... even non-believers read it because of its great story. It is REAL history... I think it is quite funny when people give Christians the label "stupid", even though the Bible is one of the toughest reads around next to War and Peace... Sure, there are stupid Christians... but there are plenty of stupid atheists to complement them....

Can I prove the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Sure I can.

Ever hear of Lew Wallace? The famous general and author of Ben Hur? He was also the worlds leading Christian-basher before he wrote Ben Hur. He spent time researching histories trying to write the ultimate book to destroy Christianity, but in the process he came to the conclusion that Jesus Christ really did live, and really did rise from the dead. He converted to Christianity and later wrote Ben Hur.

I could give you a point by point detail of why it is provable that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, but I think you should read the Bible for yourself if you are so convinced it is false... if nothing else, it will expand your ability to bash "stupid" Christians, right?

Life is so much more enjoyable as a Christian. I guess people just try to make being a Christian out to be a restrictive and "bad" thing because you can't do certain things. But in the end not doing those things makes life better. No sex before marriage = no VD, no teen pregnancy, etc... The list goes on... and I suppose you might counter me with Pat Robertson and other "Christians" who do horrible things... but unfortunately... Christians aren't perfect, and there is hypocricy just like everywhere else... but if the worst we have is Pat Robertson.... I think you may back down when some of the better know atheists happen to be serial killers, mass murderers, rapists, molesters, and all of those upstanding citizens...

So please stop the Christian bashing...

By the way, evolution exists, that's why there are thousands of types of beetles, humans are taller, and different plants survive in different climates..... but in order for something to evolve, there has to be something there in the first place....


All the best,

A Jesus Lover

[Rand Al Thor]

No. Can you prove we all evolved from single-celled organisms? No. That is why evolution is still referred to as a "theory".

First of all, it is impossible to prove ANYTHING in science, that is for mathematics. You can, however, have enough evidence supporting a theory that it is considered fact by most scientists. Evolution is one of those theories. Also, PLEASE KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST! Do you even know what the scientific definition of a Theory is? Do you think the Theory of Gravity isn't fact because it is "just a theory" what about the Germ Theory of disease?

And Christianity is the only religion with a factual event proving its existance. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.... ever read the Bible?

Sorry, but you can't use the bible to prove the bible true, that is circular reasoning. Christianity has as much support as the Greek mythologies.

Bible is one of the toughest reads around next to War and Peace

Even if the bible was a tough read (lol) how does that effect it's legitimacy.

How could human intelligence have come from.... nothing?

Humans aren't the only ones on this planet that are intelligent. Dolphins, whales, apes, monkeys, even ants are quite intelligent.

Can I prove the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Sure I can.

Then do it. Let us see this mountain of evidence that supposedly proves the resurrection.

I could give you a point by point detail of why it is provable that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, but I think you should read the Bible for yourself if you are so convinced it is false... if nothing else, it will expand your ability to bash "stupid" Christians, right?

Actually I would like to see your point by point proof of the resurrection because I have read the bible and I see no reason why it should be taken any more seriously than The Wheel of Time or Lord of the Rings.

I lost that horrible pessimistic attitude so many of you are plagued by...

Thank you very much for psychoanalyzing me over the internet.

No sex before marriage = no VD, no teen pregnancy, etc...

Condoms and birth control take care of the teen pregnancy part, Blood/urine tests (both easy to get from a doctor) solve the VD part. But that is neither here nor there.

By the way, evolution exists, that's why there are thousands of types of beetles, humans are taller, and different plants survive in different climates..... but in order for something to evolve, there has to be something there in the first place....

I guess you didn't have Bio when you were in High school, The Theory of Evolution is NOT ABOUT THE CREATION OF LIFE OR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD!!! The Theory of Evolution is about what happened AFTER LIFE WAS CREATED. The creation of life is in the realm of chemistry not biology.


BTW like it or not the bible is wrong on a great many things. It is a reasonable guide for morality (kinda) but you only perpetuate the idea of Christian stupidity (more like ignorance, not stupidity) by claming that it is fact and history. Also I suggest you read this whole topic and a lot of the "Existence of God" topic before you try posting again. It is quite annoying to see the same flawed arguments pop up every five posts.

[Falworth]

Originally posted by lawngnome@Oct 29 2004, 07:34 PM
Okay, so I am Christian... does this mean I'm stupid? I just listen to what mommy says and follow suit? I attended sunday school and made little drawings of how beautiful God is, right? I am uneducated and just believe what I'm told, right?


Unfortunately none of that is true. I became a Christian at the age of 27... after more life experience than most of you have yet. I wouldn't call myself stupid, either... I managed a high 3. something (long time ago) in high school and graduated top 15 out of 200... unfortunately my family was very poor, so I couldn't go to college... I was a manager at a restaurant for a year, and then joined the Army...

Let me tell you something... ever since I have become a Christian my life has been so much better... I lost that horrible pessimistic attitude so many of you are plagued by... and it really has helped me get through life so much easier... life is just fun now, and I look forward to paradise some day... what do atheists look forward to? just curious?

Can I prove God exists? No. Can you prove we all evolved from single-celled organisms? No. That is why evolution is still referred to as a "theory".

How could human intelligence have come from.... nothing? Doesn't it make MORE sense to say that someone bestowed that knowledge unto us?

And Christianity is the only religion with a factual event proving its existance. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.... ever read the Bible? The greatest book ever written... even non-believers read it because of its great story. It is REAL history... I think it is quite funny when people give Christians the label "stupid", even though the Bible is one of the toughest reads around next to War and Peace... Sure, there are stupid Christians... but there are plenty of stupid atheists to complement them....

Can I prove the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Sure I can.

Ever hear of Lew Wallace? The famous general and author of Ben Hur? He was also the worlds leading Christian-basher before he wrote Ben Hur. He spent time researching histories trying to write the ultimate book to destroy Christianity, but in the process he came to the conclusion that Jesus Christ really did live, and really did rise from the dead. He converted to Christianity and later wrote Ben Hur.

I could give you a point by point detail of why it is provable that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, but I think you should read the Bible for yourself if you are so convinced it is false... if nothing else, it will expand your ability to bash "stupid" Christians, right?

Life is so much more enjoyable as a Christian. I guess people just try to make being a Christian out to be a restrictive and "bad" thing because you can't do certain things. But in the end not doing those things makes life better. No sex before marriage = no VD, no teen pregnancy, etc... The list goes on... and I suppose you might counter me with Pat Robertson and other "Christians" who do horrible things... but unfortunately... Christians aren't perfect, and there is hypocricy just like everywhere else... but if the worst we have is Pat Robertson.... I think you may back down when some of the better know atheists happen to be serial killers, mass murderers, rapists, molesters, and all of those upstanding citizens...

So please stop the Christian bashing...

By the way, evolution exists, that's why there are thousands of types of beetles, humans are taller, and different plants survive in different climates..... but in order for something to evolve, there has to be something there in the first place....


All the best,

A Jesus Lover

Hey guy,, no one called you stupid... If it takes belief in a god to for you to get thru the day... Fine.... You can believe in any gods you like...

As far as christ being a god as factual...Nope,,,, that's why Christainity is a belief... not a fact... believing he resurected, is a belief,, not a fact.... all reports of it are hearsay...and all different.. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John... report it all different and they weren't even contempories of christ... So, when they heard about it, it was from someone else... There are no witnesses in the Bible who wrote about it. Your entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

Some of the worst things you get are Inquisitions,,,, Holocosts--first holocost was by good King Edward I (Longshanks)of England.
Lets see,, witch burnings, Hugonoaut massacres (French Christians on a killing spree), too many to recount. BTW,, all the above sanctioned by god, they tell me. Almost forgot: cannabilism--as in the crusaders used to roast and eat Muslim children. Also,, murder of unaccountable native south americans indians by the good spanish christains...

Assuming that life can't happen without a creator, well,, the jury is still out on that subject. So,, the quick answer is that a god created life.... Because people don't like that kind of unanswered question...they make up an answer.

I think you should have come to the realization that christains are also serial killers, mass murderers, rapists, molesters. Religion is no gauge to what a person is or is not.

Good heritage there.....

The real question is,, does a god of any kind actually exist????? Personally, I don't think so. I don't see why a god is really needed... Except for 1 thing.... and that is to give comfort to us, because we know we are going to die,, and we don't like the idea that it all stops there. So,, here we get an afterlife with a god...

Bible: Lots of the stories in the bible were taken from other cultures... Noahs ark for instance... Taken from the Summerians.. and almost a word for word copy out of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is the oldest book yet found. The jews got the story from the Babylonians in their captivity.. So,, to trust the bible is a bit over optimistic.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

this is a thread about evolution.. not about your personal opinions about chritianity. please keep on track