Call for the abolition of the Curia and Civitates

[the Black Prince]

i can't believe that of all people, its me proposing this, but really, what is the point?

what is the point anymore of having a constitution thats ignored by the staff as a matter of course? thats been violated 3 times within 2 weeks of it being ratified?

whats the point in discussing the constitution if its going to be totally ignored, and there really is no point in having the utter sham of an empty document that mare proposed in the other thread.

moving on from that, if the staff no longer have any interest in democracy in any form, no longer any interest in obeying their own laws, no longer any will or inclination to work with the members, but prefer to do their own thing and sod the members, whats the point in having civitates who are appointed to review the staff, vote on laws, and have a say on the running of the site which is totally ignored.

since this new constitution has been voted in we have seen:
Archer announcing in blatent violation of the constitution that non civitate members could become staff
We have seen people appointed to senator positions despite some incredibly clear text in the constitution stating otherwise
and today i've seen Archer boldly state in contradiction of the most basic laws of mathematics that 2 positions and 3 valid candidates (maybe more, depending on who declined their nomination) doesn't require an election, in blatent violation of the constitution.

so i ask once more, what the hell is the point of even bothering if the staff aren't going to listen, aren't going to pay any attention to both the rules and our points of view. they're not even trying to hide what they are doing, its a blatent and obvious violation of the syntagma

now either our most senior staff can't read and can't count and can't understand plain english, or they don't give a damn. it may be the former, i'm inclined toward the latter

and if thats the case, this is just a complete waste of everyone's time. TWC has failed. Its over.

say goodbye to all the civitates, your service has been worthwhile, but we don't care what you have to say any more, so we'll thank you and say goodbye. lets make TWC like any other forum, lets get rid of what made us unique, lets destroy what so many people worked so hard to create. i think its clear to us all now that the staff don't care about the members, don't care for the views of those respected members who attained civitateship and don't care to participate in the political mechanics of what was once the greatest gaming community on the net. the staff only care for one thing. getting their own way. we, the curia, in doing our duty to secure what was best for TWC and its member stood in the staffs pursuit of total control. now we face the fact that unlike its predecessors this staff is no longer honourable, is no longer willing to engage with the civitates. is no longer willing to uphold the constitution of this forum.

its over. dissolve the curia. throw out the syntagma. return all the civitates and patricians to ordinary membership. there is no need for a curia. no need for civitateship, no need for patronisation. its over.

[Sinuhet]

Sorry tBP to saying this to you, but we are discussing this already in the thread of the Mare. So please dont dilute the discussionabout this topic by doing other thread with the similar problem.

In my opinion, this post should be merged with the Mares one by Pro-Curator.

PS: No offence, but creating new threads with very similar or the same topics is clear violatoin of the ToS. And this is valid for the whole TWC Forum - so also for the Prothalamos.

[Manji]

Originally Posted by the Black Prince

its over. dissolve the curia. throw out the syntagma. return all the civitates and patricians to ordinary membership. there is no need for a curia. no need for civitateship, no need for patronisation. its over.

Meh.

Every mind holds a truth and some truths are universal.
Black Prince is right, in my opinion, in the sense that it never made sense to have such a democratic bureaucracy if the root of the site (ON) would NEVER allow for a full-fledged "democratic" forum.

Some might say that half a democracy is better than none at all but for me that's just bullocks. Websites and specifically forums are inherently "feudalistic" in the sense that person A befriends person B and therefore they will act accordingly and protect each other. Almost all forums I visit are "meritocratic" and "feudalistic", in the sense that:

a) one attains "rank" due to merit, not votes (ergo, we could associate votes with popularity, not capacity)

b) one attains "rank" due to his friendship with the higher powers (mods, admin, etc).

If anything, TWC is a mishmash of highly-cultivated minds, occasional posters, lurkers, trolls and inane spamming jackasses. Plato's Republic has no place here, nor in most forums, what a forum needs is not freedom of expression or democratically elected representatives, what a forum truly needs is CONTROL, exercized by a "caste" that is hand picked by the "godly" figure of the Admin.

Having said that, you can either do one of two things

1 - dismiss my post. ALmost all my posts in TWC, be whatever the topic, are dismissed. That's actually one of the reasons I stopped posting here and am very active in other forums, I almost always receive no input from my comments/posts.

2 - you agree with me. If so, just post here stating you agree with me and let's all make due with this wretched thing once and for all.

Categorically yours,
Manji

[the Black Prince]

Sinuhet

Mare is not proposing to abolish the Curia. Mare is proposing something else entirely. This has no relation to some new draft version of the Syntagma that has no meaning content or substance. this thread is about Abolishing the Curia and the ranks of Civitates and Patrcians as all 3 are utterly pointless

[MareNostrum]

Well tBP..

I must say that the difference between your proposal and mine..
is really not that great.

Its practically the same..
although I have expressed that perhaps the patronizing aspect of the curia could be kept. The problem in my thread is that I havent worded my view in detail. Although I have expressed at one point that deleting the Curia would be the best option.

This was your opinion on my view last night:

this is the most ridiculous proposal i've ever read...

i don't deny that some of our procedures could be streamlined, but i see no reason to overturn over 2 years of curial history and democracy
this is what helped make TWC unique and set it apart from other sites in the community and the web. this is the one site i know of where members have a say in what goes on, where members have a say in who moderates and who runs the site, and we all have a great deal of fun at the same time...

any staff team who worked with the curia instead of fighting it every step of the way over provisions that overal make little difference to how the staff actually runs the site would have no problem with the curia, and indeed previous staff teams have existed alongside quite content.

if the staff want to take the step of deleting the curia. that is, in the end, their prerogative. and its their community that they are destroying in the process

if this amendment were even seriously considered, the staff may as well do so, for it would remove all point and purpose from the curia. they should also abolish the entire civitates system, for that too would have had its entire meaning destroyed in the enactment.

And today you change your view drastically. But luckily your new view on the Curia, suits the "political" reality here on TWC. I was balancing between simplyifing the entire system or getting rid of the curia. The second is your preference, and I hope that this time you wont change your mind concerning the importance of the Curia, the Syntagma and how staff has existed alongside of it.

My views are summed up in my thread. Perhaps Sim could merge.


I am for abolition and giving ON and staff the control on all levels.
Which always has been anyway..

but perhaps we could keep the patronizing system.. for whats its worth..
and think of new "features"

[Fabolous]

since this new constitution has been voted in we have seen:
Archer announcing in blatent violation of the constitution that non civitate members could become staff

He said they could become CPs not staff, either way against the sytagma, but high staff also said they would first have to be properly patronized. No one was going to become a CP illegally.

We have seen people appointed to senator positions despite some incredibly clear text in the constitution stating otherwise

Agreed...

and today i've seen Archer boldly state in contradiction of the most basic laws of mathematics that 2 positions and 3 valid candidates (maybe more, depending on who declined their nomination) doesn't require an election, in blatent violation of the constitution.

It is my understanding that the other accepting canidates besides Kscott and Sibs were vetoed.


I think you are taking things too hard tBP, I am a member of staff, and I can say that I for one think the Syntagma is best part of TWC and is what sets it apart from other forums. I would never support any move that acts against the rules it lays down. I would think many others within staff would say the same thing.

[Last Roman]

it seems that the civitates system is a way for people to see the inner workings of TWC, it is also a way for people to get noticed by the staff. If we get rid of the civitates, a staff position might go to someone less deserving. Plus, even if the site is not truly democratic, it gives something for people to reach for...a goal. It also keeps people from constant spamming. I know that I would probably write a whole lot more if there wasen't some sort of enticement

[MareNostrum]

I would never support any move that acts against the rules it lays down. I would think many others within staff would say the same thing.
__________________

then you either respect the document..
or change it drastically / delete it

no use of having something that can be breached or suspended at any given time. No use of discussing issues only to find out that staff and ON can just disregard when its convenient. And then we nag about it... Ofcourse there have been lots of occasions in which staff and ON respected the syntagma. But just keep in mind: you may have the imagination that we have power, but real power in the end lies at those who control the site. But some civitates still want to keep the discussions going on, because of fun purposes only. Even if we have got something to say, let me assure that its pre-approved anyway. Talking about whether its should be PRAETOR, or PREFECT, changing the banners are just minor issues in which you can raise your opinion upon. For the more serious issues, let me assure you that you can YES, if staff and ON accept it.

The syntagma is in many ways just a farce..

My view on the curia changed after having been senior staff myself for a short while. And I think people like Archer, Sulla, Sim already know what my view is on the Curia. I am not criticizing ON and staff for how they deal with the syntagma in some cases.

[Torment]

Drama like this is what keeps the Curia alive...

[Sinuhet]

Originally Posted by Torment

Drama like this is what keeps the Curia alive...

And I will add: Only a Drama can attract some attention of people in this Forum.

Anyway, the things are going to move finally after 3 weeks ...

Now the most difficult thing will be to let them be further under at least some kind of control ....

[Fabolous]

Originally Posted by MareNostrum

then you either respect the document..
or change it drastically / delete it

I say we respect it. And I think staff does, and has, expect for the senatorii issue for the two CPs. I feel we in staff were very much mistaken for making them senatorii. But also note that the issue has now come up and will be changed in the Syntagma because people realized that MBM should be a senatorii as Archer felt.

[RZZZA]

Personally, I care little about the politics of this forum. I have a tough enough time trying to keep up with the politics of real life. I've always viewed this forum as a fun distraction full of likeminded people who are on my same basic wavelength. Thats all...when you add ego's and power struggles and rules upon rules upon rules...its really not a fun mock-democracy or whatever, its just plain not fun. Now, since I accepted Civitate status, I'm willing to follow orders from anybody higher rank than me, especially my patron. In that sense, I do consider it fuedalistic in a way. I just want to talk about things, thats all I want to do on this forum. If that somehow makes me unworthy of civitate then I'll drop my status with no grudges or ill feelings...because I was under the impression that the "government" system here was quite a secondary thing at TWC. Now apparently I was wrong, many people who are civitates really want to make the curia and the government aspects of TWC a primary thing...and to this I have to say: Its just a forum in the end, nothing we do here actually matters.

I dont mean to spit on any established traditions or step on any toes, but really, if they got rid of the entire government system we have here today....tomorrow, we'd still have the forum and the wonderful community...and thats all I really need in a forum.

[MareNostrum]

I dont mean to spit on any established traditions or step on any toes, but really, if they got rid of the entire government system we have here today....tomorrow, we'd still have the forum and the wonderful community...and thats all I really need in a forum.

Amen..

well said

[Lusted]

I say no. The Curia is a good thing, it helps make twc as special as it is. It has not been good that the syntagma has been broken already, but if it is adhered to, and the civitates system carries on as it has, then twc can only improve. I know several websites that are very poorly run because the moderators are all mates of the leader, im glad that here it is based on the fact you have contributed, and have shown yourself to be worthy of the position.

[HorseArcher]

Originally Posted by tBP

We have seen people appointed to senator positions despite some incredibly clear text in the constitution stating otherwise
and today i've seen Archer boldly state in contradiction of the most basic laws of mathematics that 2 positions and 3 valid candidates (maybe more, depending on who declined their nomination) doesn't require an election, in blatent violation of the constitution.

The quaestor position is a moderating position. TWC has enough moderators if you take a look at all the colored names. I think it's enough, maybe actually too many. Unfortunately the ranks connected to the government system are tied to the real-life situation of needing moderators. Once we have enough moderators to keep the site running, we won't get more, regardless of how many quaestors get nominated.

Archer announcing in blatent violation of the constitution that non civitate members could become staff

YOu forgot to add, that all non-civitate nominees would have to be first go through the regular civitate vote before ever considered as a cohortes praetoriae (non staff), which i clearly stated, and also all currently gathered CPs were all civitates, regardless of the message.

TWC has failed. Its over.

You mean, you failed to become a Quaestor?

Statement: You have been vetoed by staff before ever even considered, due to same exact drama spreading you are doing now. We need stable moderators on TWC.

moving on from that, if the staff no longer have any interest in democracy in any form, no longer any interest in obeying their own laws, no longer any will or inclination to work with the members, but prefer to do their own thing and sod the members, whats the point in having civitates who are appointed to review the staff,

democracy on TWC : I don't think there was ever a democracy on TWC.

vote on laws, and have a say on the running of the site which is totally ignored.

Some people do realize that the curia and its members isn't running this site, and some also realize that every single staff member started out as a civitate. So it's hard to say, that the laws are ignored completely, just because the staff uses its veto power when needed. It's for the sake of TWC, otherwise this place would be just another Anagennese.

p.s. The curia isn't the only section of TWC. Sometimes try to click around and see a whole other world out there.

[MareNostrum]

Originally Posted by Lusted

I say no. The Curia is a good thing, it helps make twc as special as it is. It has not been good that the syntagma has been broken already, but if it is adhered to, and the civitates system carries on as it has, then twc can only improve. I know several websites that are very poorly run because the moderators are all mates of the leader, im glad that here it is based on the fact you have contributed, and have shown yourself to be worthy of the position.

whats has that got to do with bills, amendments etc etc...
and its importance? And do you really think that because we have civitates and the syntagma that we have some "upper-staff checking". Do you really believe that the syntagma ensures that not only "leader suckups" can become a moderator? Its your contribution to the site that will make you a moderator, not your contribution to the curia, in exception for the pro-curator rank.

If 99% of the civitates would want Sib, or tBP as a republican consul..
then let me tell you something. they wont get appointed.


why do we need to nominate people anyway... bla bla..
if staff needs additions..

then let them open a topic and set out the conditions and ask those who are interested to apply. Isnt that easier,
Then allowing people to nominate, based on how they think of a member, then staff reviews the candidates, issues vetos, opens vote.. etc.

again we could keep the rank civitates, patricians.. if some find it way too radical to also delete the rank.
and allow civs to give their opinion on any matter, when the staff needs it under their conditions
I am talking about minor issues here... without rules, or whatever... just a simple vote...

a small bonus to the rank
besides the cool banner, red name, symposium...

and have shown yourself to be worthy of the position.

as agreed upon by the Civs..

and senior staff and ON

democracy on TWC : I don't think there was ever a democracy on TWC.

...................................................

[the Black Prince]

i have not been vetoed by staff
1/ no triumvirate veto, because there is no trium
2/ no prefect veto, because at least 1 of the prefects didn't veto me
3/ any veto had to be made public in a clear form in advance of nominations

whats the point of keeping the syntagma if the stall ignore it
whats the point of the curia and civitates without the syntagma

there is really no use ofr them outside of the curia. and the purpose of the curia is to discuss legislative affairs which have no point or meaning

the reason i changed my view is that i came to see that with the current administration, there is absolutely no point in maintaining this farce.
i still say your proposal is utterly ridiculous though. what on earth is the point of keeping the civitate system without the curia. it has no benefits, no point, nothing

[Sinuhet]

Originally Posted by Archer

The quaestor position is a moderating position. TWC has enough moderators if you take a look at all the colored names. I think it's enough, maybe actually too many. Unfortunately the ranks connected to the government system are tied to the real-life situation of needing moderators. Once we have enough moderators to keep the site running, we won't get more, regardless of how many quaestors get nominated.




YOu forgot to add, that all non-civitate nominees would have to be first go through the regular civitate vote before ever considered as a cohortes praetoriae (non staff), which i clearly stated, and also all currently gathered CPs were all civitates, regardless of the message.




You mean, you failed to become a Quaestor?

Statement: You have been vetoed by staff before ever even considered, due to same exact drama spreading you are doing now. We need stable moderators on TWC.



democracy on TWC : I don't think there was ever a democracy on TWC.



Some people do realize that the curia and its members isn't running this site, and some also realize that every single staff member started out as a civitate. So it's hard to say, that the laws are ignored completely, just because the staff uses its veto power when needed. It's for the sake of TWC, otherwise this place would be just another Anagennese.

p.s. The curia isn't the only section of TWC. Sometimes try to click around and see a whole other world out there.

Ave Archer!

"Vivat Soviet Union! Vivat Soviet Union! Vivat Soviet Union! ......"

Bye Sinuhet

PS: for explanation of relevance of this my post in answer to your post see eventually the thread about Queastor nominations, and my last post in it (it was adressed to you btw)

[Siblesz]

I don't know if you guys comprehend this, or maybe if you decide not to listen to it, but even borispavlovgrozny, the legendary creator of the Curia, ignored his own Syntagma rules for his own political benefit. So don't declare the Curia as useless/meaningless when it's never been what it states itself to be. If anything, it's always been the same.

I've repeated this hundreds of times in public... the Curia was not set up for the civitates to have any control over the matters of TWC, but to create an illusion of democracy in the site by giving small amounts of electoral power to the civitates. Ofcourse, I don't know what Archer's intentions are, but if now, you're signalling some sort of abolition of the Curia for the reasons mentioned above, then perhaps you should have done the same since the dawn of its creation.

[MareNostrum]

Update:

I don't know if you guys comprehend this, or maybe if you decide not to listen to it, but even borispavlovgrozny, the legendary creator of the Curia, ignored his own Syntagma rules for his own political benefit. So don't declare the Curia as useless/meaningless when it's never been what it states itself to be. If anything, it's always been the same.

+

create an illusion of democracy

+

democracy on TWC : I don't think there was ever a democracy on TWC.

=

it has always been the same farce

Nuke this place...
let me got to my garage and finally use those WMD that Saddam gave me.

then perhaps you should have done the same since the dawn of its creation.

consider it like launching a shuttle..

sometimes you delay it.. one..or perhaps 2 , 3 times
and then kaboom