EB Governments

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There are a number of questions that will probably pop up about the governments in the open beta. But there are also some things I'd like to keep in a post here to keep folks informed before they might have questions.

First I'll post the bit from the gameplay guide (sorry Krusader , but since I wrote this part I'll steal it back and post it here too), especially since that post is locked. I'll place (in post 2) some reference maps as we finalize them for the places where "homeland" and then the second type (varies) can be placed (these two types require 'precursor' or 'resource' buildings before they can be built in a province). Feel free to discuss or ask questions about them.

Excerpted from the gameplay guide:

Government buildings are different from core buildings. The core buildings do often represent the residence of the chief magistrate or king, and change as the city size increases (this is hardcoded), but core buildings will not be able to be constructed unless a government type is chosen for each new province you conquer. The types of governments available to you will vary depending upon the faction you will control. There are generally four types: a “homeland” type, a “colonizing” type, a “subject state” type, and an “allied state” type. Again, they vary greatly depending upon the factions, and there are some exceptions to this general pattern, but these are rough guidelines to help you understand the system.

Let’s take the Makedonian government types as an example for which we can provide more details: when you begin the game, the provinces Makedonia controls will already have governments put into place for you. These types of governments are based upon the types found there in 272 B.C. Makedonia itself would have a “homeland” type (called a Patris Makedonike or “Makedonian Homeland”). Thessalia would have a “colonizing” type (called a Satrapeia Makedonike or “Makedonian Satrapy”). The Peleponnesos would have a “subject state” type (called a Nomos Symmachos Emphrouros or “Garrisoned Allied State”), as would Euboia. And finally the island of Lesbos would have an “allied state” type (called a Nomos Symmachos Autonomos or “Allied Autonomous Territory”).

These different government types give different bonuses and allow for the recruitment of different types of troops. They also allow or restrict different types of buildings for the province, but remember that they are necessary to recruit soldiers and advance city levels, so you cannot get along in the game without them. Back to our Makedonian example though... In a province with a Makedonian Homeland government, you can recruit the absolute best troops the Makedones can field. You can also construct the highest levels of buildings that exist in the Makedonian construction tree. You will probably have slower growth and maybe some trade penalties (laissez faire economics this is not), but the province would be more loyal and lawful and with your best troops trained there you would benefit greatly. These homeland governments can only be constructed in places where their actual homelands were, so you could not build one in Egypt, for example, for the Makedones. The drawback is that they are very expensive to build, and take a long time to construct, since the most loyal and most thorough expansion of your faction into a new province will take the most effort and time to ensure it succeeds. With this type of expansion, it is also logical that very few units made up mostly of “foreigners” would be available for you to recruit in these areas, but it is possible that a few very simple troop types could be gathered together from the small numbers of natives you have allowed to remain in the province.

If you have conquered a more distant province, you could create the “second best” type, your “colonizing” type government. This is very much like the homeland type, but some of the absolute highest level buildings and troops cannot be built here. It takes a while to build and is still expensive, but it is not so much or so slow to construct as the homeland type. It is still your best choice once you move beyond your homelands, or even in some of your homeland areas if you have plenty of homeland types already. You will find a few local units (not normally of your faction’s style) available to you in these provinces, especially in the lower levels of the MIC’s.

The “subject state” type will still allow you to create some of your good faction troops but you are allowing many of the natives of the province to continue their way of life alongside the new inhabitants of your faction. Your highest level troops are not able to be trained here, and your best faction buildings are not able to be constructed here, but there are plenty of other benefits to be gained. This type of government is moderately cheap and fast to create. Whether you are installing a “puppet” tyrant to govern locally for you or whether you are allowing a local tribe to govern alongside some of your strongmen, the locals are able to create some moderately good military units themselves in these places (provided that such units can be created here by the locals). Trade is not so much interrupted by the uprooting of massive numbers of inhabitants, and you might find some other bonuses such as an increase in the happiness of the local inhabitants. But it all depends upon the faction’s particulars (as the Makedonians have a stronger garrison in this type, they have better law bonuses, but worse happiness penalties). Since your highest level structures are not able to be built here, it is advisable that before you place this type of government you note whether or not this is an already advanced province. If it is a very simple one, you might not be able to gain quite as much in the end as you would like.

The “allied state” type is not recommended for smaller provinces for the same reasons. This is an ideal type to institute when you have conquered a large city with numerous good structures and a large population. You can still build many structures, but your best “cultural exports” are not available. This province is now under your control, but there is minimal change instituted immediately. Trade continues unabated (and trade bonuses are granted), there is no large transfer of population (and bonuses to population growth are possible), and the people are happy (even if they are not as lawful or loyal to you). The government needs little money and can quickly be put into place in this type also. Only your simplest troops can be trained here, but if the region has any good or elite troops that your faction could recruit, they would definitely be available in this type of province (they would not be available in this province if you had instituted a “homeland” or “colonizing” type). The local troops trained here might also gain experience bonuses as you are not disbanding their familiar training centers and techniques.

An allied or subject state type government may be destroyed and a colonizing type instituted at a later date if you wish, but the same expenses (in constructing buildings more suitable to your faction’s peoples) and delays (in introducing colonists and changes in laws and such) you would have incurred earlier would still be expected if you initiated the changes later.

For much more information, read the descriptions of the possible government types for your faction. Be aware that the AI is not restricted by time or expenses in building their government structures. The best type available for each faction in each province will be automatically placed for the AI factions upon conquering the province. When you conquer a province, you may destroy the old AI factions’ government structures, and when you look at the types of governments available to you in that province you will see if all types are available or if that region is one where certain types are not possible.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Type1 and Type2 governments
possible to be built within the following zones (for each faction):

(Note that these are not all currently in the open beta but these are what we are heading towards.)

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Aedui


Type1

Type2

Status: WIP

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Arche Seleukeia


Type1 (light gray)
Seleukid Military Settler Colony

Type2 (dark gray)
Seleukid Satrapy

Status: Final (ok'd by TA, Qwerty, VC)

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Arverni


Type1

Type2

Status: WIP

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Baktria


Type1 (blue)
Baktrian Homeland\n\nWhere this government is available, in the regions around Baktria, it is the most efficient and productive type of government, though it is somewhat slow and not as conducive to trade as some other types. The Baktrian subjects who serve in the military do so for a number of reasons, but those from the heartlands of the nascent empire, are certainly more loyal than those from its peripheries and in battle their willingness to fight is more evident. In these core provinces, the full benefits of Baktrian and Hellenic culture and technology, as well as those from Iranian and even possibly Indian thought and religion, are able to be enjoyed by the populace.

Type2 (light blue)
Baktrian Satrapy\n\nA close approximation to the type of Baktrian homeland government, but which is available in outside regions, is the Baktrian Satrapy. With a core of Hellenic Baktrian citizens and those Iranian citizens whose power is increasing every day, these satrapies form the most common type of government in Baktrian expansion throughout the east, and are modelled upon Seleukid satrapies and their efficient methods. Most Baktrian structures are able to be constructed, and most core Baktrian troops can be recruited here, but the most elite ones must come from Baktria itself. There is a good morale boost for these troops as well, but along with a limited citizenship structure, comes a slow population growth, just like in the homelands. Still it is the most beneficial government choice for the long run in external provinces.

Status: Final (ok'd by TA, Qwerty, VC)

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Casse


Type1
Casse King's Tribe\n\nThose tribes under the direct rule of the king, or his sub-kings, are considered the king's tribe or clan, if composed of many tribes. These would be most loyal to the king, and his direct subjects; these tribes probably consider themselves subsets of a single, greater clan, and feel personal relations, dedication, and maybe even love toward their ruler.

Type2
Judge's Kin - Casse Clerical Administration\n\nSome tribes, though rare, are led by a clerical administrator; clerical does not necessarily mean a plainly religious leader, however. To Celts, many things fall into the auspice of the 'clerical' realm; since law and teaching are sacred, they would be considered 'clerical', but not priests. These leaders are beholden to the king, offering the full strength of their armies to him, but offer little money or tribute, due to their personal use of both trade income, and as donations to their temples, schools, or courts. This means income can be scant, but religious leaders are adored in Celtic society, and are often inspiring to the people; living under one usually means very great protection, as well as the constant belief that the gods' support this tribe especially.

Status: Final (ok'd by Ranika, Qwerty)

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Epeiros


Type1
Epeirote Homeland\n\nRestricted to a relatively small area, these provinces remained the chief strength and the source of the most elite soldiers for the Epeirote army. The homelands of the Epeirotes were well-wooded and mountainous, the home of hardy soldiers and farmers of hillsides. Harsh conditions such as these made for a good source of men who might have spent their lives enduring the cold mountain winters and fighting against the Illyrians and Makedonians from their east. They are fiercely loyal to Epeiros and consider Dodona as the most important religious shrine in their lands, and they are also given a large say in choosing the path the government takes. Men who are free to vote their opinions in a well-constructed meeting hall or bouleterion and who are thus trained and armed are formidable foes and not likely to flee the field of battle in harsh conditions either.

Type2
Epeirote Military Controlled Territory\n\nEpeirote expansion was not as well prepared to handle long term rule in their new possessions as some Hellenic peoples were. The most common method was to garrison troops in a local citadel or stronghold and place a local ruler or oligarchs in control of the day-to-day functions of the cities. This did not make for happy citizens in many locations, but it did bring in more money to the coffers at Ambrakia and continual training and minor military engagements in these areas, to put down minor rebellions, did ensure that the soldiers who served there had more experience readying themselves for more major engagements. It was not as easy to bring in new troops except under duress in these regions though, so a slower growth process is to be expected.

Status: Final (ok'd by TA, Qwerty, VC)

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Getai


Type1 (orange)
Getic Tribe\n\nDue to the imposibility of depicting the Getian tribal society accurately, the government covers technically the Getian inhabited territories. However, one should not consider this to be a mere compromise: Getian royalty behaved much more despotic than its Gallic or Germanic counterparts; influeces of the southern Thracians and of the East made sure of that. There existed, of course, tribes more loyal than others, but there are indications that, once in power, Getian basileos would occupy the main dava with powerfull and loyal garrisons, along with which they would "export" faithfull communities, placing them around these strategic points. Thus it became apparent a tendency to disolve these "own tribes" into one society - nevertheless, we can't consider it to be a consistent policy.

Type2 (brown)
Getic Allied Tribe\n\nRefering mostly to Thracian tribes. The differencies between Getai and southern Thracians were not insurmontable, but significant enough to allow a feeling of separate identities. The basileos' garrisons in these regions would be seen as Getai, and not merely royal ones. However, the occupied tribes would also have had a greater degree of autonomy in their economical and military relations - the last aspect refers to the long thracian tradition of serving as mercenaries.

Status: WIP (considering adding more type2's)

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Hayasdan


Type1 (medium blue)
Haikakan Royal Province\n\nThe homelands of Hayasdan are directly ruled by the king himself and his most immediate subordinates. These lands are under the strict control of the king and are the backbone of his armies. His best soldiers are able to be recruited here and the most complex and traditionally Haikakan structures are able to be built in these provinces as well. When conquering new provinces, it is not a quick or inexpensive process to firmly establish royal rule there, but it is without question the best type of government that the Hayasdan can implement in provinces where it is an option.\n\nThe people of the province are the most loyal in the kingdom though not allowing other peoples as much access and room to live here does slow rates of expansion, and by enforcing strict rule and control there may be some slight economic drawbacks. In addition to having the loyalty of the populace, the troops trained here also are more eager to fight for and defend their homeland and king.

Type2 - (light blue)
Haikakan Principality\n\nThe Ishxanutyun is a province that is ruled over by an Ishkhan (prince). Armenian princely houses, or clans, were headed by either a prince or a “lord of the clan” (“house lord”), who was known as a Tanater. The Ishkhan or Tanater would be able to raise his own troops from his domain, and would protect the Ishxanutyun and also serve the king. While they are not directly ruled by the king, and are not usually located in the center of the king’s domains (or kingdom), still this province will be made thoroughly Armenian once the time and effort have been invested in establishing the rule of the Ishkhan.\n\nThis province will be able to construct most of the best Haikakan units and buildings, though it may be located on or near the borders of what is traditionally thought of as Hayasdan. The Ishkhan himself would live in a hereditary estate known as a Hayreniq, and would have a residence caste, or Dastakert.

Status: Final (ok'd by artavazd, TA, Qwerty)

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Iberia


Type1

Type2

Status: WIP

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Karthadastim


Type1
Phoenician Homeland Province\n\nA Phoenician province is the basic building block of Carthaginian power. These encompass cities like Carthage itself, along with Hadramout and Lepki. The Home Provinces combine a rich Phoenician heritage and encompass the major trading and agricultural centers of the Carthaginian Empire, with most of the soldiers formed from Phoenician citizens as well. These provinces are dominated by agriculture and cottage industry, producing the wealth of grain and manufactured goods that make Carthage a rich power. Gazing into the verdant fields surrounding Carthage makes one realize her power.\n\nCarthage is ruled by a Shophet, the Hundred, and the Senate, in descending order of importance. The Shophet is elected and confirmed by the people and the Hundred respectively. The power of the Shophetim is based here, and any aspiring Shophet of Carthage would do well to remember this.

Type2
Phoenician Colony\n\nA colony of Phoenicians under Carthaginian control is known as a Mosaba Ponnit. It has rich agricultural potential, but is not so rich as the home provinces. The colonies are controlled by military governors, who can often amass as much power as the Shophet at home! Typical colonies encompass a city where Carthaginians, Liby-Phoenicians, and Libyans have come to set up industries and make the agricultural potential of a particular piece of land really shine. While not as heavily geared toward trading as the Emporia, the Colony has the base where goods are manufactured and processed.

Status: Final (ok'd by VC, Qwerty)

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Koinon Hellenon


Type1 (orange)
Spartan Agoge Kleruchy\n\nInstituting a kleruchy modelled upon the traditional Spartan agoge is no trivial matter. While military benefits are tempting, it takes other provinces to keep such a system financed, now that the subjugation of helots has become a discontinued practice. Serious trade penalties and the inability to construct many buildings make these places unattractive for foreign merchants and even the coining of money is frowned upon. The types of soldiers that can be trained here is also restricted, but after a long and expensive process, the soldiers become much better than those found elsewhere. It might be worth your while to occasionally attempt such an experiement in a province. But be warned that any empire that relies too heavily upon these provinces will be very difficult to maintain in the long run. The province will need a city-center, unlike the classical Spartan state, as it is part of a growing empire of the Hellenes and not an idividual entity. The Syssitia, or large dining-halls, are the most easily recognized structures that will relate directly to government in these provinces. Most of the rest of the training and daily life is done out of doors.

Type2 (brown)
Hellenic Kleruchy\n\nAfter selling into slavery the prior inhabitants of a newly conquered province (or possibly even after killing all the adult males), Hellenic klerouchies (colonies) were usually created by sending settlers from the metropolis (mother-city), possibly alongside other allied settlers. The new poleis were not entirely independent, but still maintained citizenship with the metropolis. The process was a slow one and was most commonly found in already Hellenic lands, but kleruchies could be established in more remote locales, provided that there were good ties and lines of communication with the metropolis. Settlers received an allotment of land (a kleros) and would eventually be able to increase the ranks of the citizen armies with the participation of their own and future generations. The benefits of such a process of expansion include higher loyalty and the expectation that the new city might have all the culture, technology, and benefits of the metropolis. With only citizen settlers participating though, the growth rate was very slow after the initial settlement. Keeping the military well-reinforced and ready to be used by the vote of the local strategos or vote of the settlers at the bouleterion is very important to the safety of the colony and its success.

Status: Final (ok'd by TA, Qwerty)

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Makedonia


Type1

Type2

Status: WIP

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Pahlava


Type1
Parthian Royal Clan Satrapy\n\nThis represents the royal domain. Vast estates which the Parthian king held under personal lordship and from which he extracted revenues. Without these estatesit is unlikely that he would hold power for long. The Parthians were not overly concerned with exactly who held power as long as he held the Divine Glory. kinship lies at the root of his royal power and the host he could trust and depend on would have been chiefly composed of the families and kindred of the royal clan. For this reason he was chiefly concerned with increasing the royal domain and extend his personal authority.\n\nThe feudal and decentralized structure of the Parthian kingdom explains why, though founded by a militant and capable people it never really took strong offensive action against its enemies. It was easy for a Parthian king to summon to his banner a great host, but it was impossible to hold such an army together in the field for any meaningful length of time. To maintain such an army would require a bureaucratic infrastructure, a money economy and a well maintained transportation system. Also the regional power holders would need to be subjegated to the central government and this simply wasn't possible on the nomadic eastern frontier. Such a centralization of power was not in the interests of the powerful and the local clan aristocracy was powerful enough to maintain their social and political position against royal encroachments.\n\nFeudalism emerged in Parthia for much the same reasons as it did elsewhere. A landed equestrian system was needed for military purposes. The aristocratic military elite were the effective rulers of Parthia and these warriors were invariably horsemen. This class of warriors required a substantial landed estate to maintain cavalry away from the steppe, particularily the heavily armoured cataphracts Parthia was so renowned for.

Type2
Parthian Great Clan March\n\nThe Parthians established border marches on the eastern frontiers to defend against the incursions of nomads and it is from these that the great clan marches descend. The lords of these marches enjoy considerable power and autonomy to the point that some of them are almost an independent feudal kingdom, controlled by the despotic satrap from his capital. The heads of the great Parthian feudal families, such as the Suren, and Karen clan, were themselves, by far the largest property holders in the satrap. The best example of these great lords is Eranshahr-Spahbed Suren-Pahlav who led the forces of his clan against the Romans at the battle of Carrhae. There he destroyed the Romans and seven of their legions, their legions standards taken as trophies of war.\n\nLocal magnates played an important role in the kingdom, and the king was wise to respect their privileges. Several of the eminent noble clanss had a vote in the Royal council, and the powerful Suren clan had the right to crown the Parthian king. Every Parthian aristocrat was allowed and expected to field armed retainers of his own. When the throne was occupied by a weakling, the naturally contentious Parthian nobility would vie for power between themselves and for the great clans there was the hope of siezing the throne itself.\n\nThe scattered and constantly shifting camps of the steppe nomads do not make for highly centralized governments. They are held together by ties of blood and loyalty to their chieftains. He is the central autocratic leader of the tribe and is granted great, but poorly defined powers of rulership. Compromise, persuasion, and an understanding of what the tribe wants are needed for him to effectively rule. An usurper cannot sieze the reins of government since there are none. All of this is informal and largely based on the respect and the tribesmen sense and respond to strong leadership. Any imbalance in power between tribes will result in the common tribesmen seeking to place themselves under the authority of the more capable leader. The direct alliances made with the great kings satrap made those tribes more prominent than their rivals. The influence of a satrap is often immense since he places members of his own clan into positions of responsibility and cultivates allies and clients within his satrapy.\n\nThe great clans are satraps with large nomadic confederacies whose loyalty is assured by gifts and favours from the clan lords. It is essentially impossible for the noble rulers to force direct control over the clans. The clan lords are however, capable of acting as sponsors to the great king, and providing trade, services and pastures. Control of the trade routes is essential and a string of fortified trade stations, called Karwansarai's each with a small garrison, allow this to continue. Yet, even so the tribal allegiance is never secure and power must be present as a constant to force submission if necessary. The real allegiance of the majority of the tribesmen is to their extended families, clans, and tribes. These free tribesmen constitute a mobile ready made force of cavalry able to be utilized by strong leaders. The nomadic groups in turn are dependent on the kingdom and perform military service when called upon to do so.

Status: Final (ok'd by SteppeMerc, Qwerty, VC, TA)

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Pontos


Type1
Royal Pontic Territory\n\nThe homelands of Pontos are themselves a conglomeration of different peoples, who over centuries of living and trading with each other have developed a rather harmonious relationship, though only after much time and effort has been invested in extending the benefits of Persian rule to the Hellenic subjects in these homelands as well as bringing the advances of Hellenic culture found in their midst to the rest of the subjects more accustomed to the Iranian culture of the prior kings. The considerable natural resources of these lands, both material and human ones, provide great strength for a king who would choose to make full use of the best elements of each of the contributing cultures. Their growth might be slow, but their loyalty is not suspect and their morale on the field of battle is great. Long-term economic benefits will result eventually, and the best and most varied military training of Pontic units are available here.

Type2
Pontic Persian Satrapy\n\nThe traditional form of government of Persian satrapies was well-remembered and revered by their descendants, among whose number is the Megas Basileus of Pontos. This type of government was well-suited for many new territorial acquisitions and provided a sound method of exporting the benefits and rule of the millieu that was Pontic culture. Most all cultural benefits and martial training present in Pontos is able to be replicated and developed in these Pontic satrapies, but it is not a fast process. These newly acquired regions, if they are to serve the king in the best way possible, must undergo many years of development and the peoples must be well instructed before the full mechanisms of the Pontic economy and government may be enjoyed here. The loyalty of these regions will not be in doubt after such a process, though it is a slow one, and the morale of troops trained here will be very good, given their upbringing in a satrapy such as this one.

Status: Final (ok'd by TA, Qwerty)

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Ptolemaioi


Type1

Type2

Status: Very much a WIP

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Romani


Type1
Italian Regional Government\n\nThe governance of Roman Italia in previous years has shown us that while it takes much time to fully acclamate the peoples of the peninusla to Roman rule, it is a process that can repay those efforts greatly. These regions, after a period of time when they might be indirectly governed by Roman magistrates such as a profectus or quaestor, will be fully integrated into the economic and military training systems of our state. A more equal partnership in a federation of Italian states can be granted to these newer regions, and while full rights of suffrage may not be extended to them for some time and while in fact the quotas of soldiers levied from them might be great, still the process of Romanization is a full and beneficial, if slow one.

Type2
Romanized Province\n\nIn provinces where an entirely new governmental system is necessary or where existing infrastructure is deemed too much unable to handle the future expectations of Roma for the region, it might be beneficial to initiate a full Provincia Romana. Provincial governors and more than likely numerous small coloniae are sent out from Italia and while their primary function is to defend the province from foreign enemies and domestic disturbance, they should be given enough time to fully construct a Roman provincial government and the other necessities of a fully funcationing Provincia. Expect somewhat slow growth from the population in these areas and some unhappiness from the forced acculturatization, although the men who are trained here are more trustworthy and loyal than in most newly conquered areas. Some economic growth will result from new and more efficient methods of taxation, but expect no great economic booms for quite a while.

Status: Final (ok'd by TA, cunctator, VC, Qwerty)

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Sauromatae

None needed (doesn't use regular governments)

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Sweboz


Type1 (red)
Realm of the Swêboz\n\nBlood relationships are very important in Germanic society and considering the might of the Thêngáz, the leadership of those tribes is not despotic but monarchistic and democratic in one. The Kuningaz do not posess absolute power; he still has to respect the will of his people. He is often advised by a council of wise men and they also had to respect the wishes of the Thengaz, some tribes even had a constitutional cooperation between the king and the Thengaz. Multiple tribes could form a coalition and create a new tribe, coalition tribes could become very powerful and often controlled large areas of land.\n\nThese tribes are the most loyal to a germanic Kuningaz, they feel of kinship and relationship, not only cultural but also as a confederation unlike many other germanic tribes.

Type2 (dark red)
Swêboz Allied Nation\n\nThe differencies between Germanics and Celts are not insurmontable, but significant enough to allow a feeling of separate identities. The chieftains of these regions are tied by treaties and royal hostages to the Swêboz - however, the occupied tribes would also have had a greater degree of autonomy in their economical and military relations.

Status: Final (ok'd by TA, Ranika, Qwerty)

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Yuezhi

None needed (doesn't use regular governments)

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[Teleklos Archelaou]

To give an example with the maps and discussions that have been ongoing inside EB boards on where type1 and type2 governments can be placed, I'll put one up now. This is definitely a work in progress still.

Keep in mind also that some peoples had an easier time with expansion than others historically. This will be reflected to a degree in where you can place type1 and type2 governments. It won't cripple a faction's expansion, but some factions like Pontos surely won't be able to have their type1 homeland governments or even their type2 governments spread out across the whole map. They will have to rely on more loosely holding or even allying with provinces that we have no reason to suspect they would have been able to 'export' their 'culture' to.

We've been talking about the Getai locations, so I'll use that as an example:



The orange color shows the extent of possible placement of type1 governments. For the Getai, type1 is this:

Getike Phyle - Getic Tribe\n\nDue to the imposibility of depicting the Getian tribal society accurately, the government covers technically the Getian inhabited territories. However, one should not consider this to be a mere compromise: Getian royalty behaved much more despotic than its Gallic or Germanic counterparts; influeces of the southern Thracians and of the East made sure of that. There existed, of course, tribes more loyal than others, but there are indications that, once in power, Getian basileos would occupy the main dava with powerfull and loyal garrisons, along with which they would "export" faithfull communities, placing them around these strategic points. Thus it became apparent a tendency to disolve these "own tribes" into one society - nevertheless, we can't consider it to be a consistent policy.

These are the lands the Getai lived within. For type2, we have this description:

Phyle Symmiche - Getic Allied Tribe\n\nRefering mostly to Thracian tribes. The differencies between Getai and southern Thracians were not insurmontable, but significant enough to allow a feeling of separate identities. The basileos' garrisons in these regions would be seen as Getai, and not merely royal ones. However, the occupied tribes would also have had a greater degree of autonomy in their economical and military relations - the last aspect refers to the long thracian tradition of serving as mercenaries.

While this refers "mostly" to Thraikian tribes, it also can be applied to other nearby peoples who are somewhat similar, or maybe at least who the Getai have ties of trade or treaty. They are the darker brown provinces on the above map.

Outside of these areas, the Getai would not be expected to closely control other areas. Their type3 government is this:

Phyle Xenike Pelatike - Getic Foreign Client Tribe\n\nRefering to the directly-governed foreign populations. Conquered tribes or states placed under the authority of Getai loyal Tarabostes. Although their status grants them a relatively large independence on economical and military policies, the fact that their affairs are constantly brought in front of a foreign noble for the final decision causes resentments.

They do control them and can recruit middle-range units and buildings there, but not their best. Type4 is:

Nomos Symmachos Autonomos - Getic Allied Free Region\n\nRefering to autonomous foreign populations. Conquered tribes or states of different ethnicity placed under the authority of indigenous nobles trying to mantain the semblance of autonomy; however, their military obligations to the Getai would be strictly enforced. Their so-called autonomy would allow engagement into local conflicts or hiring as mercenaries, and an independent trading policy with tribes not engaged in conflicts with the Getai. With the tribute they have to pay for their priviledges being higher, this reflects negatively in their level of loyalty and attitude towards the central-government though, a consequence of their feeling of separate identity also.

Type3 and type4 are able to be built anywhere (even in the orange and brown provinces). So, the question would seem to be - do we allow for a larger range of provinces that a type2 government can be constructed in? To understand a little better, the Romans, who we know were incredibly effecient at exporting (as well as importing) their own culture to other places, would be able to build a type2 government all over the map - except for the steppes, desert regions, and possibly extremely northern forested areas.

So there's a bit of a rundown on some questions still facing us. Don't worry about how we can make the game do this for each faction (part of the mystery of scripts and precursor buildings! ), but just the effects that it would have on where these governments can be constructed.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Here is the Koinon Hellenon map for type1 and type2 placements.



This is one of our stranger ones. Type2 is still a very good government actually. It is the standard Greek kleruchy (colony), good for expansion into areas they do not control at the start of the game. Type1 is the spartan kleruchy - the only peoples that can have one of these established in their midst are greeks who either are dorian also or have much in common with the Lakedaimonians. You can build spartan agoge kleruchies in (Lakonia of course already has it), then in Krete, some areas of northern Greece, Kalabria, and the region around Byzantion. They can't be built in most greek locations, but having type2 still able to construct some of the best buildings makes up for this. Type1 here still has the best units, but even it is restricted in terms of buildings. We were able to keep the highest level of a few KH buildings *out* of the type1 provinces where appropriate.

This could have been really something amazing *if* we had unlimited building complexes. There would be separate ones for the KH so that the Spartan agoge could be really good for troops but very limited in terms of income from trade or certain buildings. But the complexes have to be shared by everyone, so we had to limit our ambitions here. But we still have an interesting way (we think) of portraying this faction.

We'll be happy to talk about the map and what provinces should accept type1 or type2. Egrisi was the last one we took off the type2 list and the last change made before posting. Enjoy!

[spotH3D]

Very interesting stuff. This whole government concept is the most exciting thing to me, even better than the beautiful new units and new dynamic traits. Could you do the same sort of illustration for Carthage and Rome?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, we will get them all up here eventually. We're still discussing a few things about Carthage and Rome, but in a few days I'll have them up.

[Kopijeger]

Regarding roman government buildings: Having conquered all of Italia south of the alps with the exception of Mediolanum, I have noticed that I can build type I government everywhere except Patavium. This seems slightly odd to me, because I would have thought that that region too was thoroughly italianised in the timeframe of the game (if the southern provinces like Taras and Rhegion can start with greek culture but be incorporated into the roman "homeland", I do not see why not every province in Gallia Cisalpina couldn't be incorporated in the same fashion). Is this limitation intentional? And why is it that Mediolanum is called just that (ie latin form) when it is controlled by the Aedui at the start of the game?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The scripts don't currently place all precursors in the right places - chiefly because we are just now carefully going over where the right places are (and trying to involve the public on this too as my posts on this issue are doing). Patavium was one place the type1 wasn't available in the open beta, but we have already decided it will get one in the next set of govt updates we submit.

The type1 for the romans will only be inside italy itself - and the govt is an administration of italian provinces. Here is the description:

Administratio Regionum Italicarum - Italian Regional Government\n\nThe governance of Roman Italia in previous years has shown us that while it takes much time to fully acclamate the peoples of the peninusla to Roman rule, it is a process that can repay those efforts greatly. These regions, after a period of time when they might be indirectly governed by Roman magistrates such as a profectus or quaestor, will be fully integrated into the economic and military training systems of our state. A more equal partnership in a federation of Italian states can be granted to these newer regions, and while full rights of suffrage may not be extended to them for some time and while in fact the quotas of soldiers levied from them might be great, still the process of Romanization is a full and beneficial, if slow one.

Their 'highly romanized province' govt will export most roman culture to most places across the map (with the exception of steppe/desert/highly distant and mountainous provinces). So they will have a good type2 almost all over - and that will hopefully mimic their ability to bring their culture/advances to the most distant regions (as long as the cost and time are spent to convert the place). Here is that one's description:

Provincia Romana - Romanized Province\n\nIn provinces where an entirely new governmental system is necessary or where existing infrastructure is deemed too much unable to handle the future expectations of Roma for the region, it might be beneficial to initiate a full Provincia Romana. Provincial governors and more than likely numerous small coloniae are sent out from Italia and while their primary function is to defend the province from foreign enemies and domestic disturbance, they should be given enough time to fully construct a Roman provincial government and the other necessities of a fully funcationing Provincia. Expect somewhat slow growth from the population in these areas and some unhappiness from the forced acculturatization, although the men who are trained here are more trustworthy and loyal than in most newly conquered areas. Some economic growth will result from new and more efficient methods of taxation, but expect no great economic booms for quite a while.

This was a recent map that showed type1 and type2 for romans:


But we have decided to include Galatia in the type2 category, and also Libye (the Ammonion). There has been some discussion about Sinai(Petra), but they may just have to get a type3.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Someone asked for Baktria elsewhere, so I'll post it here too of course.

Baktria:



Again I need to remind everyone that this is *not* the current situation as released with the OB. This will be what we are shooting for for the next patch or update.

Type1 is the Baktrian Homeland government and is the darker blue color. Type2 is a Baktrian Satrapy and is the pale blue color. Type2 is pretty much places that have a lot of Hellenic successor influence with a few others that Baktria had historical expansion into. Greseoralla was thrown in for its Hellenic influence.

Anyone have any questions about these?

[John I Tzimisces]

Mind if we get an Epirote one? Because I am able to recruit epirote soldiers in Rhegion and Messana without type 2...it seems like a good idea but I'm a little worried about the implementation.

Edit: just read your comment about the OB. Ok, gotcha.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, we're working on the Epeirote one still too. The thing about them is this: their type2 is pretty wide ranging, but not as great as some type2's. It is a military controlled territory type province, and there will be some extra unhappiness in the local population if you choose it. But we are tryin to represent the way the Epeirotes had to deal with that sort of thing (they weren't great at holding onto territory or 'exporting' their culture really). But the AI will automatically place the best govt everywhere, so if we have type2 spread over most of the map, then there will be few epeirote 'auxilia' (the better types you get in type3 and 4). So it might be good to put some 'gaps' or 'holes' in the sheet of type2's - in a few strategic places that maybe would have been too difficult to hold by force. This way when the AI epeiros does conquer them they can recruit some better locals to mix in with their regular faction troops (since type3 would be the best govt the scripts could place).

It's actually pretty exciting I think. :laughing: But then again the AI epeiros probably won't be making it to some of these most far fetched places anyway.

[Solar]

I see the reasoning behind the limitations you are imposing to factions, but I can't help but think it is a little bit detrimental to the feeling of "raising an empire the way you want it". I mean, sure, the baktrians never conquered gaul, and thus could not have ever hoped to colonize it. But does that mean they should be unable to do it in my EB game? Rome went to places far and strange to their culture (ie. egypt, britain, the levant), and still they had very strong grip over many of them (btw, shouldn't judea be a bit harder to hold onto, maybe denying a type2 government, judging by the constant rebellions that were caused by their monotheistic fervor?). Heck, alexander hellenized lots of lands that were totally alien to hellenic culture. In face of these facts, why should (for example) baktria be restricted to colonizing places with previous hellenic influence?

I'm sure the EB team discussed over this type of thing before deciding to go for this type of restriction, I'd just like to know why this particular decision was taken.

[Khelvan]

We have no way to mimic environmental, demographic, and other factors which drove the classical cultures to create the civilizations they created. We have chosen to give limitations based on historical factors, though not mimic history. There is still a good bit of "they -should- be able to do such and such here" in our choices. If we let everyone do everything, there would be no differentation between factions.

We've done our best to balance what actually happened against the ability to do everything everywhere, and provide an experience which should give people an idea of what each classical culture was all about.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It varies by culture though. Baktria does have two types of satrapies. They could (potentially) have gone into foreign places and set up stable governments, and we will allow it (even in gaul) with our semiautonomous satrapies (type3) being possible there. But a player won't be able to draw the best or even close to best troops from those most distant provinces. That's the only big restriction we're putting on it.

For Epeiros, since they didn't colonize places, they don't have satrapies or colonies, but different types of province governments. They either have their homeland, they hold an area by force, they occasionally left their 'barbaric' allies hold onto a place, or they allied with somewhere. Maybe not exactly like every interaction epeiros had with a new land, but not too far off. That's why their type2 *could* go into quite distant areas, but it will have drawbacks in the form of unhappiness. Type3 has some unhappiness too for sure. Type4 should be pretty attractive for an epeiros player though - but then again it's not too far off: epeiros did use lots of troops from local areas to expand. It should be pretty different when playing as epeiros as opposed to some other factions for these reasons. Maybe some of this makes some sense. :laughing: I'll be happy to keep answering questions if it doesn't.

[Solar]

OK. I guess what I'm trying to say is, please do not be too restrictive; players like to imagine they are a historical great figure that can actually change history and forge a great empire which never did exist. So yeah, the gauls might lack the political structure to create a large empire, but hey, they colonized galatia, which is a completely strange region for gauls to be in the first place. The goths, coming from the eastern balkans actually colonized southern Iberia! Alexander, coming from little Macedonia, exported hellenic culture to half the ancient world, through just a few years of accomplishments! What if I'm playing, say, the Getai and decide I should create a colony on, er, Ireland? It would be impossible, wouldn't it...? but that's just the kind of thing the gauls (galatians) and goths (visigoths) did...

Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to allow for type 2 governments anywhere, but make them more expensive outside the "suggested" type 2 area... ? then again, you are restricted by the number of complexes available, so it MIGHT be a bad idea, indeed. o well.

Not that I'm complaining, the governments idea is fabulous, and I'm sure I'm gonna have a lot of fun making use of it

[Teleklos Archelaou]

One other thing that most folks don't realize - all governments have to cost the same and take the same time to build for all factions. No exceptions possible (stinks, I know). That's why a type1 costs the same to everyone, and a type4 costs the same to everyone.

[mike^_^]

is there a map for macedon anywhere, or one in the making? I assume it's similar to the other successors, but it's nice to have it

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Originally Posted by mike^_^

is there a map for macedon anywhere, or one in the making? I assume it's similar to the other successors, but it's nice to have it

This is our latest one. Dunno if it's finished yet, but here it is:



Keep in mind this is NOT what is in the OB, but it is what we are shooting for for our next submission.

Type1 is Makedonian Homelands, and is fairly restrictive. But type2 is pretty much all successor state hellenic provinces, plus nearby ones in the balkans provinces and Italy - places where the Maks would have still been able to have close control in a Makedonian Satrapy (which is what type2 is).

Type3 would be a garrisoned province - very strong military presence (unhappy people too), but never 'makedonized' nearly as well as the govt is so repressive. Perfect for places like korinth, for example.

[Solar]

Here's what I would do if I could design a similar game, with no hardcode restrictions:

The "colonies" (type 2 government provinces) would be limited numerically, not geographically, depending on the political structure of the conquering nation. This would allow politically fragile nations (the "barbarians") to have a few oddball colonies around the world, as history shows to have happened, but they wouldn't be able to mantain large empires. The "civilized" nations would be able to keep more colonies.

And here's the deal: this number would be able to be "upgraded", based on several conditions. One example would be: The Aedui have conquered 15 provinces already, and mantained extensive contact with "civilized" nations. In fact they've just captured Rome itself, along with a host of roman politicians, which, fed by a lot of gold (which the player would have to pay), have agreed to help improve the aedui political system. Now, lo and behold, the Aedui have become more "civilized" and organized, and can hold more colonies than they could before. This dynamic would allow even "barbaric" factions to rule large empires (ie the mongols in the middle ages) actually becoming more "civilized" in the process.

But I'm just phantasizing here, again. Playing too much Civ4, I think I am.

[Ranika]

Originally Posted by Solar

OK. I guess what I'm trying to say is, please do not be too restrictive; players like to imagine they are a historical great figure that can actually change history and forge a great empire which never did exist. So yeah, the gauls might lack the political structure to create a large empire, but hey, they colonized galatia, which is a completely strange region for gauls to be in the first place.

Actually, they didn't lack the structure. Read the Gaul factions descriptions; they're not just tribes fighting, their two divisions in a civil war trying to gain control of the Gallic 'empire'; the Aedui are the legal claimants, but the Arverni viewed them as weak and inefficient, causing a massive rift. At one time, a very large area was ruled from Gaul, by the Biturges, and their king Ambicatus; it was quite massive with a huge population in it. The goal of the Gaul factions is to actually recreate the empire of Ambicatus, as either a kind of trade-based confederated-republic (the Aedui), or a militaristic-quasi-democratic-monarchy (the Arverni).

However, of Galatia, while it was ostensibly colonized by Gauls, it wasn't their goal. Their goal was to conquer Greece, but they diverted after the general of the third army, Brennos (not to be confused with the Brennos who sacked Rome) commited suicide after the siege of Delphi (which is a bit of a gray area; Celts may have sacked the city and the temple, but something went wrong at some point and Brennos killed himself; a few speculate that his son {potentially his son} Abrocoris died in the fight and he was grief stricken). The king of Bithynia gave the diverted army the land to work for him as mercenaries (though other Gauls had already settled the kingdom of Tylisia and driven off or subdued the Thracians; the two armies that went through Macedonia after the Macedonian army was destroyed, rather than turning south).

Migrations were not uncommon for Celts; the whole thing in Greece and ultimately settling Galatia was all migratory stuff. They felt crowded and wanted new land. Gauls liked Greeks, so figured it'd be nice to rule some. They even had Greek allies when they went through (represented by establishing allied governments; if you want to ever roleplay Gauls right, always ally with Greeks rather than enforce client status, except if there is particularly stiff resistance, in which case Celts would force the Greeks to work, like at Heracleia; by comparison, some cities just gave up and were treated rather well, and were used to provide the Gauls with Greek cavalry for the most part). Celts did violently expand their kingdoms and dominions though, just like Ambicatus, and there is a lot of land to recover to be the 'next' Ambicatus.

I know this is probably of little concern here, but I am trying to illustrate a point with governments (and clear up some things). The Celtic governments for non-Celts (allies and clients) are meant to represent the expansion of dominion. Clients would provide some Celtic soldiers, because Celts had to move in to enforce clientship. Allies, by comparison, provide only locals; a sign that the Celtic conqueror favors them or at least trusts them. Celts didn't just rule tiny little areas with ease. Ambicatus, and a number of his followers (Ambicatus was just the conqueror) ruled the region well for quite a time using a system of magistrates that the Aedui still had in place (the Arverni abolished the magisterial system for a more powerful noble class). The Aedui would just install local magistrates to expand their domain beyond Celtic lands; it's not that difficult, and in foriegn places, probably represented by favoring allies. The Arverni would have more trouble, because they were pretty xenophobic after years of Belgic and Germanic invasions, and would likely institute client status (installing their own nobles) on most nations they conquered; this would be less stable but probably much quicker to expand.

At the same time, we can't really fully display the way things worked. A 'client' would most likely be bred out, displaced, or assimilated over the years until it's a thoroughly Celtic land. I don't think we can represent that fully.