Miracle: A question that hasn't been asked before

[gamergrrl]

I have a question I don't believe has been asked before. Seriously!

What about women in EB? Vanilla R:TW doesn't seem to have the ability to have female characters . For Rome this is entirely historical, yet for at least two or three of the vanilla factions it is not (Scythians, Celts, Britons*). For other factions occasional female characters who were not permitted to fight on the battlefield would appear to be realistic. For several not enough evidence appears to exist either way.

I'm just interested. I know I'm in a minority here, but the ahistorical omission of women as at least partial agents of their own destiny is a major turn-off for me. I'm not the only one who feels like this, either :wink:

As far as female inclusion in units goes the only vanilla faction which could at all justify this would be the Scythians. Others would have a few women within their ranks, but as this would require being able to mix and match skins within units it's not practical using the R:TW engine.

I just think it's a shame really I'll prepare to be flamed now


* As indicated by primary sources, i.e. Roman and Greek writers

[Greek Fire 19]

Hmm, I can't imagine anyone would flame you for this.

As far as I remember (havent played in a while) Vanilla RTW had a few female units, e.g the scythian warrior women and the germanic screeching women and so on (as well as the crazy amazon warriors in Hyperboria)

HOWEVER, as far as I know EB wont have any.

First of all the scythians wont be included as a playable faction, having been replaced by the sarmatians, who unfortunately did not use women warriors in the same way. Who knows if we'll get a special rebel scythian warrior woman unit, but I doubt it.

The germanic screeching women are a textbook 'fantasy unit' and nobody likes them...

They also took out all the women wandering around the town when you zoom in in peacetime; to use the model space for proper fighting units.

Anyhow, overall I don't know, I'm sure there were armies during this period (mostly barbarian) that had a few women fighting for them, but the idea of making a whole unit of 'warrior women' seems a bit unhistorical. And EB are big fans of historical accuracy.

[Feldspar]

personally I would like to see the coming of age of a female scythina general and such, doubt its possible but maybe it could be done with a script... maybe. but yeah there actually were a few in some cultures who were quite respected warriors, and leaders. it would be cool to see.

[psychosium]

It would be awesome to see female generals for some of the barbarian factions.

[Hyungoku]

we live in a world ruled by men.

its as simple as that

[Ahiga]

The female leaders of the ancient world were not a common occurance (Boudicca, Zenobia), and is not sexist to say they'd not warrant any addition, just as Joan of Arc and other important and unique figures would not warrant inclusion in Chivalry total war.

You'd need to get female portaits, female models, female voices, specificy (Hardcoded I assume) to give a female model & voice to the female portait and not the male.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, we're doing all that stuff for our Amazon faction. And the women will talk in Greek, too.

[Simetrical]

Originally Posted by Greek Fire 19

First of all the scythians wont be included as a playable faction, having been replaced by the sarmatians, who unfortunately did not use women warriors in the same way.

They did as far as I know. I'm not one of the history people, of course, you'd want to ask Steppe Merc or somebody, but I'm pretty sure on this regardless. No idea if we have an all-female unit, though.

No Celts used female warriors extensively, as far as I know. I'm even less certain of this, however.

Originally Posted by psychosium

It would be awesome to see female generals for some of the barbarian factions.

This is impossible. We can't mix and match male and female generals within a given faction, unless we want homosexual couplings constituting 50% of all marriages and producing children just as often as heterosexual ones. We also couldn't match male/female faces to male/female names, so those would be mixed as well. It would be potentially possible to make one faction's generals all female, but that's obviously pretty ridiculous for any of our factions.

[Blitzkrieg80]

the Amazons were supposedly a specific tribe of SARMATIANS, not general Scythians, whom the Sarmatians are still a part... read Herodotus. Therefore any argument against their inclusion for that playable factions by that account is null.

[Khelvan]

We will have a female Sarmatian unit.

As for generals, this is impossible - the game is set to use male names only for the family members/generals. I suppose we could mix in some female portraits, but they still draw from the same pool, they still marry from the female name pool, their spouses become pregnant and deliver children, and so on.

It is a limitation of the game engine, else we would depict female leaders in the areas they would be historically appropriate.

[Attalus]

Great idea!

Didn't somebody mod generals to be a trainable or recruitable unit?

My understanding is that they could not be 'family members' per se, but possibly adopted?

[Simetrical]

Here's what Ranika, one of our Celtic experts, had to say about Celtic use of female warriors.

Ranika: Hello.
Simetrical: Hello.
Ranika: How're you? I'm just seeing how the team is.
Simetrical: I'm fine, thank you.
Ranika: Oh, and Celts had...sorta fair numbers of female warriors. Was more region dependent (reliant on diet and daily life); in legal terms, it was pretty much the same everywhere
Ranika: One simply had to qualify as a soldier and volunteer for it. Women didn't as often meet the physical requirements though (generally shorter and such), and didn't as often volunteer
Simetrical: So were there enough female warriors to justify a female Celtic unit out of however many we have?
Ranika: They were somewhat common in midland Britain, and was actually considering a unit of them there, but there are so many things that are more important really. Maybe if I had another model free I'd seriously consider it again.
Ranika: But even then, women weren't put into special units; they were organized into a regiment like any other soldiers, with other soldiers of similar height and armament
Ranika: Oh, except, they weren't put into warbands or other ambush parties
Ranika: Since dogs could find women easier
Simetrical: Well, of course, but the same is true for any minor detail that has to be made the same across a single unit in RTW.
Ranika: Oh, I know. Hence why I'd still consider it
Ranika: It'd not be any uber-unit or what not if we had it; few women advanced very far militarily. Most powerful Celtic women had gained prominence through politics.
Ranika: Having influential militaristic husbands, or having been married to a king or other higher noble (like Boudicca)
Ranika: So the unit would probably just be women with spears, javelins, round or square shields, like a low-tier midlander warband. It's really just exposition though; they'd not be much more than the Celtic skirmishers
Ranika: So without extra space, they're unnecessary units
Ranika: Especially when there are plenty of other things that I'd prefer to show and can't. I'd consider them all the same for what would be a unique edge, but they would be at the expense of something like unique Dobunni cavalry or something similar
Ranika: Which would also be a more useful model

Notice how he attempts to pretend he wants to talk about something not relating to Celts at the beginning, before breaking down into a lengthy exposition about Celts as though it were a side note. I thought it was strange that he was asking how I was doing out of nowhere.

[gamergrrl]

Ah! Thanks for answering, guys. That's pretty much what I thought about the game engine making it impossible to mod-in female characters (from a brief and non-expert look through the text files), but it's still a shame. As for female warriors, again, that's what I expected... we're talking about a minority of women here, quite a small minority in many cases, but not such a small minority if you can/would envision yourself in their place had you been a contemporary (as I'd imagine most women playing R:TW would).

I'm just semi-professionally interested in women warriors in factual history from a creative writing point of view as well - obviously they were always a minority due to the sheer physical requirements, but rarely entirely absent either.

Good luck with the mod! I'm awaiting the open beta with eager patience

[spirit_of_rob]

Originally Posted by gamergrrl

Good luck with the mod! I'm awaiting the open beta with eager patience

wow two miracles in one topic someone waiting with patience

[ginga_rob]

I have been waiting in patience since well.......I can't remember.

[Wulf]

You haven't gone mad yet? Another miracle

[~Corsair#01~]

Ranika: Oh, except, they weren't put into warbands or other ambush parties
Ranika: Since dogs could find women easier

? What's that about?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Originally Posted by ~Corsair#01~

? What's that about?

I thought a period of enough time had passed that no one would actually ask about that. But getting an answer on this might be like trying to get blood out of a stone.

[pajomife@iol.pt]

Because the womens only appear after the time of the game.

[the_mango55]

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

I thought a period of enough time had passed that no one would actually ask about that. But getting an answer on this might be like trying to get blood out of a stone.

lol