Boars Snout formation

[Herr Lindstrom]

Okay. I know there's the shield wall formation, the Tortus Arch formation... but what about the Boars snout? in reality that was the most widely used formation used by the Vikings to smash through the Saxons famous sheild wall (don't get me wrong the saxons did use the sheild wall almost all the time).

But it'd be nice to have that choice to have a sheild wall because lets face it... it's a pretty effective formation esp when defending... so here's my suggestions. Is it at all possable to have 2 special formations for units? I know the Trebuchets in M2TW used 2 special attacks, fire ball, dead rotting cow (which is funny as hell to use imo ). If not then what about having some of the more hardy units use the Boars snout formation, like the Huskarls, and maybe the Jomsvikings as well seeing as they barely receive damage from arrows anyways.

[MasterOfNone]

Not possible.

[Herr Lindstrom]

not possable to give infantry units a wedge like formation or not possable to give units 2 special abilities?

[MasterOfNone]

Not possible because:

1. you cannot have two special formations

2. infantry cannot have what is in effect a wedge formation

3. there are no more patches for DoB/VI2

[Herr Lindstrom]

well... in that case... Tripple Damn! Time for me to experiment around then

[Athenogoras]

It is technically possible to give infantry the boarssnout(or svinfylking)-formation.

As MoN said not possible to give 2 specialformations.

Candidates for the danes
1. Armoured spearmen
2. Huscarles
3. Hirdmenn

As the spearmen have the shieldwall in the mod I will leave them out. Leaves 2 and 3

Now you need to change EDU entry for respective units to look like this

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

formation 1.1, 1.2, 2.2, 2.4, 4, square, wedge

Then you need to create special formation in descr_formations_ai.
Here you can set the unitformation and how you want the unit to deploy in defence or offense
Example defense

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;; behind center - Huskarlar and merc heavy infantry
begin_block 3
unit_type heavy infantry 1.0
unit_formation square
block_formation line
block_relative_pos 0 0.0 -5.0
inter_unit_spacing 1.0
priority 0.9
end_block

I choose to give the huscarles an ordinary square formation in defense. This will give the player a chance to choose if he wants to use a square or a boarsnoat formation in offense. In defense(that is if you are attacked)the human player will be stuck with the square formation.
Example offense

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;; Huskarlar and merc heavy infantry
begin_block 0
unit_type heavy infantry 1.0
unit_formation wedge
block_formation line
block_relative_pos 0 0.0 0.0
inter_unit_spacing 0.3
priority 1.0
end_block

Now the AI will use the units in square in defence and switch to wedge in offense.
If you as player want to use the wedge(offense only) you need to give the AI control of your units. Ai will then reform them into wedge. Take out of AI control and voila! The boarsnoat! You will now have no ability to reform them back to square again but will have to use them in wedge throuout the battle.

[tone]

Have you actually tried this?

As far as I'm aware RTW doesn't do infantry wedges.

[Athenogoras]

Have you actually tried this?

Of course. Will try to upload some pictures. coming soon

From custombattle

AI in defence


AI reforming to offense


AI in wedge attack


AI charge


Of course there is no special wedgebutton to utilize for the human player(see former post)

[Svensk Viking]

cool

[Faridus]

Athenogoras,
beside the visual effect/aspect of the wedge formation, does it have any bonuses on the battlefield? i mean the infantry unit in wedge formation, will it have an increased attack and/or charge value?

[Athenogoras]

Good question. What does it do to cavalryunits? Have CA ever spelled it out? I have read somewhere that its mass get "concentrated" in the tip of the wedge, but I cant confirm it. My tip is that it do to infantry what it does to cavalry. I might do some test and see if I can come to some sort of conclusion.

Edit: It definately has an effect on infantry. I noticed it particularly in the charge. The effect seems to be a prolonged charge resulting in more enemy casualties. While not able to split the enemy formation it carved out a good chunk.

[Herr Lindstrom]

Btw... is VI2 able to work online so we can get some better results on the wedge formation for the infantry. in particular its effectiveness against units in the shield wall formation.

[MasterOfNone]

All mods, afaik, work online in multiplayer as long as the players have the same version.

I *highly* doubt there is any workable solution to this, but do not let that stop you

[Athenogoras]

The formation are not widely mentioned in any of the sagas and literature that I know of. That doesnt mean it wasnt used. Perhaps it was so common that the chroniclers didnt feel the need to mention it, I dont know. I would limit it to the norse and the danes(in the formationfiles) and give the capability to the hirdmenn and the jomsvikingar only.
I would also limit the use so that max 2 units can form it in an army. I would also make it an requirement that the wedge is properly supported requiring at least 2 huscarles, 4 spearmen and 2 light infantry(at least).

To make it work though the wedge units needs a separate class. Therefore I am testing making them skirmish infantry.(I have found no other solution)
In defence formation would look something like this
S-Spearmen
H-Housecarls
G-General
A-Hirdmenn
L-Leidangr
V-Vikingr
M-Missiles

SSSSSSSSSSS
VVVVHHHVVVV
LLLLAGALLLL

MMMMMMM

In offence

...........A A
.........HHHH
....SSSSSSSSSS
VVVVL L G L L LVVVV

M M M M M M M M

Edit: On large settings. What is the normal size of your bodyguard-units? King, Heir and normal generals.(for danes and norse)

[Andalus]

Nice work, Athenogoras. I always thought it was impossible to make infantry wedges in RTW.

It is a pity you can't add a morale effect to it, though. Having faced a Boar's Snout in re-enactments, I can attest that it is quite shaking to have one crash into you!

[Athenogoras]

It is a pity you can't add a morale effect to it, though.

Perhaps there is(in an indirect way). AFAIK unit morale is affected by proximity to friendly units. I wonder if it works the same "within" the unit itself. That is if the units formation breaks up it routs faster(longer distance between soldiers within the unit).
However, unfortunately I dont think this is how the engine works.

Having faced a Boar's Snout in re-enactments, I can attest that it is quite shaking to have one crash into you!

I can imagine! I would have headed for that sweet red border on the horizon.